Youth Shooters and their Parents

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:42 am

I'm sitting under the watertower at Camp Perry this morning as it's the best place to get wireless access here. My first time to CP ... I'm impressed. Grass grows on the range here .... not just dirt blowing in your action like in NM.

One of the most interesting discussions yesterday was the pressure that athletes face when the are going onto the firing line at a match. The bigger the match, the bigger the pressure that parents, family, and friends can place on the shooter.

Some of the comments that came from the panel of world class shooters ...

1) Prepare the athletes, and encourage the parents to show up to other matches
2) Parents should sit to left of the shooter so the shoter cannot see them easily (reverse for LH shooters)
3) Parents should always make known that the shooters "worth" to the family and as a person is not based on this match/event.
4) The shooter must put the match/event in perspective ... what happens if I win/don't win...
5) Parents and family must be "trained"" as well as to what is expected of them

There were many more ... (typing in my lap in the car does not lead to long discourses)

What else can any/all of you add to the pot? Maybe comments here can add to our knowledge of how to train the parents/family/friends of the athletes...

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:07 am

Hi

For the first match, I always tell the kids to concentrate on not shooting a spectator, anything above that is just great.

Mike

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:54 am

Parents need to be told only to be positive. Keep the kids motivated and make sure they enjoy themselves. If they spot their kids doing something wrong, jott it down and discuss it with the coach - after the event.

Rob.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:19 am

From Mike:I always tell the kids to concentrate on not shooting a spectator

Mike ... you and I have about the same sense of humor .... We gotta meet F2F someday!

From Rob: If they spot their kids doing something wrong, jott it down and discuss it with the coach - after the event.

Hey, great idea! What do you think .... with or w/o the athlete there?

wrc · Post by **wrc** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:01 pm

The catch is that most parents, not being shooters, or paying close attention, will not really know what is right or wrong in any given situation. We don't get into heavy competition with many or even any parents present, but I would invite all parents to actually TRY target shooting with a coach present. They will probably find it far more challenging than it looks, and have more respect for leaving the kids in their coaches hands.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:21 pm

wrc wrote:The catch is that most parents, not being shooters, or paying close attention, will not really know what is right or wrong in any given situation. We don't get into heavy competition with many or even any parents present, but I would invite all parents to actually TRY target shooting with a coach present. They will probably find it far more challenging than it looks, and have more respect for leaving the kids in their coaches hands.

The youngsters I've coached have always had parents there at the same time - more often than not as their loaders. In that respect they tend to listen to what I'm saying (more so than some of the youngsters). We have had quite a few parents have a go and some were pretty good - must be the coaching ;)

The talking to the coach bit I'd advise just parent and coach until I as a coach was happy that the parents knew what they were looking at and understood the importance of the right kind of feedback (i.e. +ve and constructive). That said a different perspective can often also help and discussing it as a small group also has it's advantages.

Rob.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:27 am

I was looking thru the 3PARC rulebook this AM and found in 9.1.1 (Scoring Protests) The underlined parts are new.

9.1.1 Who May Protest Scores
Competitors must submit scoring protests for their own targets. If unusual circumstances prevent competitors from making score protests, the statistical officer may allow team coaches to make score protests. Team coaches or parents may advise competitors regarding score protests.

Question: What is an "unusual circumstance". If a shooter does not want to hang around, or if they leave some other reason?

Comment: Allowing the parents in the mix could be interesting.., but at least it says or ... not both

I must say I do like the "new" ISSF rules that even on paper targets if you protest a shot and you lose the protest, there is a two point deduction. You had better be pretty sure , not just hoping it will go your way.

Nicole Hamilton · Post by **Nicole Hamilton** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:00 am

jhmartin wrote:I must say I do like the "new" ISSF rules that even on paper targets if you protest a shot and you lose the protest, there is a two point deduction. You had better be pretty sure , not just hoping it will go your way.

Why? Do you find that baseless protests are a big problem in your experience? Best case, even without the possible penalty, you can't get a point you don't deserve by protesting. All you can get by protesting is a fair outcome. And my reading of the rules is you can only protest a scoring decision that was made without the use of a gauge. Well, duh! If it's a close one and they're not using an optical gauge in an important competition, why in the world does it take a protest -- much less, one that might cost you two points -- to get this fixed?

Even in our informal club matches, I always check anything at all close on any target I score. Even with a magnifying optical gauge, a fair number of shots are hard calls; I'm often asking for "second opinions." And I admit, I get a little annoyed if someone scoring mine appears kind of careless about just "eyeballing" it. I want a correct score, not just some wet finger in the wind guess at it.

It seems to me that this two-point penalty is a blatant invitation for sloppy judging. A better rule would be one that insists that judges will always gauge any hole within, say, 3mm of the line and that a competitor should always have the right to request that any hole be gauged without penalty.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:40 am

It seems that the 2 point penalty came about with the electronic targets, and then has migrated to paper targets as well.

In our local matches we do not charge a protest fee as we want the shooters to learn that it is OK to protest a shot thst is obviously close.

This does lead to baseless protests ... however there are about, say 1/3, that are upheld for the shooter

I cannot answer to your as to an invitation for sloppy judging ... maybe maybe not. We encourage the use of gauges ... sometimes I think too much, but it may be the safer way.

And after considering your comments, maybe before I "cheer" the ISSF rule, I should promote the protest fee in our organization first.

Good comment Nicole .... made me re-think....

Nicole Hamilton · Post by **Nicole Hamilton** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:33 pm

jhmartin wrote:This does lead to baseless protests ... however there are about, say 1/3, that are upheld for the shooter.

If a 1/3 of them go to the shooter, this doesn't sound like baseless protests are a problem at all! Again, my understanding is we're talking about scoring decisions where a gauge was not used, is that right? So here we have a case where the judge had the target in his hands and could have decided to use a gauge but didn't. All the shooter can do is a rough eyeball -- he's not even allowed to touch the target, I assume -- and still he's right and the judge is wrong 1/3 of the time? This is terrible! I'd have accepted an even smaller fraction, maybe just 10% or 20% going to the shooter, as an indication of good faith.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:32 am

I think the ruling is only applied to proper 'big' competitions. It is very common to challenge to scores at the 25Y events and the shooter is never penalised. In my experience the shooter protests a card scored in-situ and that's fine - the scorer just gauges the shot and that's it. Where the penalty comes into play is if the shooter protests the final score i.e. at the end of the match.

Rob.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:49 pm

I must say I do like the "new" ISSF rules that even on paper targets if you protest a shot and you lose the protest, there is a two point deduction. You had better be pretty sure , not just hoping it will go your way.[/quote]

Don't mix apples and oranges in the same bucket of worms. The ISSF rule you mentioned in the same posting will confuse other readers into believing that this rule has been incorporated into the 3PARC air rifle rules - it hasn't.

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:46 am

jhmartin wrote:I was looking thru the 3PARC rulebook this AM
...
I must say I do like the "new" ISSF rules that even on paper targets if you protest a shot and you lose the protest, there is a two point deduction. You had better be pretty sure , not just hoping it will go your way.

Hi

I'm glad we use NRA rules most of the time, since we tend to use parents to score targets. In many cases, the shooters know more about scoring than the poor suckers we get roped into scoring. At least I know to use the Range Officers to score too when if we eventually do an ISSF match. In the past, we've always used the most experienced instructors and coaches to run the matches, but not score.

Mike
Wichita KS

Mike Douglass · Post by **Mike Douglass** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:42 am

If you want a 10, shoot a 10.

That's for you JB.

Mikey

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Youth Shooters and their Parents

Youth Shooters and their Parents

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