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I note that several people on here 'shoot everything' .......
Centerfire and big bore are significantly different to Free Pistol and Air Pistol....
If Free Pistol is the 'Prince' of target shooting.... Air Pistol is its 'imitator' ... its 'poor cousin' Emulating it and offering challenges of its own ?
How many on here agree with that ..... and how many 'run away from' Free Pistol and its punishing challenge to " lesser disciplines" ?
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Big bore Vs FP and AP
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Big bore Vs FP and AP
Last edited by Elmas on Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think comparisons of pistol disciplines are able to be fair. Apples and oranges as they say. The elite level of each type is the same; i.e. Hard.
The very impressive score of 290/300 with American Service Pistol is to me "world class". Same with Olympic level FP and AP. The games are just different.
The very impressive score of 290/300 with American Service Pistol is to me "world class". Same with Olympic level FP and AP. The games are just different.
jackh wrote:
The very impressive score of 290/300 with American Service Pistol is to me "world class". Same with Olympic level FP and AP. The games are just different.
My question(s) included : Can someone shooting 290/300 in American Service Pistol also shoot FP in the 560's and AP in the 580's ? Probably not .. .
Can someone who shoots 590 in RFP do 570 in FP? Or vice versa? Why is the world record in Standard Pistol 22 years old? Do you think Zonglian Tan would top Yusuf Dikec's 597 in Center Fire pistol just like that? Are shooters who don't like to stand around for two hours and shoot their 60 shots in 120 seconds automatically inferior to these FP specialists? Get real. You can't compare these things. It takes as much practice and talent to become world champ in RFP as in FP. There are those who like this, and those who like that. FP is a very difficult discipline to shoot, but it's not more difficult to win - there's a lot less competition than, say, in CF or Standard. It takes a lot to win, in every match, on every distance. Either one is a very good shooter, or one isn't, and the rest is individual preference. To say that FP is THE top discipline of ISSF target shooting is in my eyes not appropriate.
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David Levene
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IMHO there are 3 reasons for this:-Tycho wrote:Why is the world record in Standard Pistol 22 years old?
1) It was a good score
2) Most countries allocate less funds (if any) for training in the non-Olympic events.
3) (Probably the most important) You only get 1 chance every 2 years to break it.
Point 3 above is the reason why I do not consider it to be as great a record as Pyzhianov's younger Air Pistol record. There are several opportunities every year to break that one.
Edit note: number of reasons corrected to 3 (from 2)
Last edited by David Levene on Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Right, 3 good arguments. On the other hand, AP is more or less a dominion of the FP shooters, while SP sees ALL kind of people. The WCH rankings from Zagreb show a mixture of FP, CF and RFP shooters in SP, which makes for a very experienced, very "hard" competition. And the mental pressure is lower, as no quota places or so are to win, so I'd expect higher results...
Besides, you're right about that AP record. That the 593 held up for so long is quite astonishing, and/or the result in itself is absolutely outstanding. Does anyone know if there is a national record somewhere higher than those 593? I think I read somewhere that the swedish record in FP is 583, and the russian record 585, but I've never heard of those 593 topped...
Besides, you're right about that AP record. That the 593 held up for so long is quite astonishing, and/or the result in itself is absolutely outstanding. Does anyone know if there is a national record somewhere higher than those 593? I think I read somewhere that the swedish record in FP is 583, and the russian record 585, but I've never heard of those 593 topped...
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David Levene
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- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
This is probably due to the fact that the maximum mens pistol team is is 9 as rule 3.6.8.1Tycho wrote:The WCH rankings from Zagreb show a mixture of FP, CF and RFP shooters in SP
This, together with the fact that there were 4x50m Pistol, 5xAP60 and 2xRFP quotas available in Zagreb unfortunately meant that those competing in the non-Olympic disciplines were not necessarily specialists in those events.
There could very well be, and I am sure there are, some extremely skilled and talented StP shooters who stand no chance of shooting in a World Championships because they do not also shoot the Olympic events at a high enough standard.
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Steve Swartz
Actually, over the years many shooters have competed in both the Interservice Pistol Matches and USAS NAtional Championships.
I know of at least a handful of cases where a shooter fired a 290+ with the Service Pistol on a Thursday, then drove 600 miles and shot a 570+ in Air on Monday . . . followed up with 540+ in Free a couple of days later.
I know of one specific case very well of a "bullseye" shooter (second year shooting international) who shot a 293 SP, 567 AP, and 545 FP all within a two week period . . . but it must be noted the service pistol was a Beretta 9mm!
Steve Swartz
I know of at least a handful of cases where a shooter fired a 290+ with the Service Pistol on a Thursday, then drove 600 miles and shot a 570+ in Air on Monday . . . followed up with 540+ in Free a couple of days later.
I know of one specific case very well of a "bullseye" shooter (second year shooting international) who shot a 293 SP, 567 AP, and 545 FP all within a two week period . . . but it must be noted the service pistol was a Beretta 9mm!
Steve Swartz
In answer to Elmas---I could prbably offhand quote around ten or more New York State shooters who can and do shoot .45 in the 290++ region and quite often shoot in the 540 area with the Free Pistol and 560+ in AP. But comparing Big Bore shooting and FP & AP---is as quoted above apples and oranges. Just because a guy can lay down to shoot 300 to 1000 yards doesn't lower the ability needed. It's a whole different life between the two venues and frankly the Big Bore Rifle shooter has many more things to deal with than the FP shooter. I go to shoot FP with my TOZ box and a shooting bag---that's it. Once the Big Bore shooter gets finished with hours of precision re-loading of his ammo----now he gets his kit together with more materials than for an African Safari. Once he has transported his rig to the firing line then minutes of prep time to lay out all his acoutrements and all the while he is watching the wind, the heat, the position & brightness of the sun etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseam. Next the distinct pleasure of strapping into a huge leather shooting coat with at leastone sweatchirt underneath it, in 90 degree heat, wow that's is real fun, especially when it takes a couple of days for that coat to dry. Been there ,done it and in my dotage I wouldn't go back to that for any money. IMHO
Last edited by deleted1 on Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
Not impressive really.
All iron sights, sub six hold, mostly slow fire (but with proper recovery, rapid fire service pistol is just sustained slow fire).
One set of skills.
By the time the recoil hits the round is downrange.
You just have to learn and condition yourself to shoot through the shot, and not quit on it too early . . .
Steve Swartz
(p.s. it's amazing how many times I- and a whole lot of other "devilish" guys in this forum- have seen some guy at the range shooting a "500 Tyrannosaur" all over the map and be ready to toss the gun away in disgust . . . until the mild mannered international air pistol shooter puts up a cloverleaf 5 shot group into the 25 yard target. What was that Yogi Berra said: "90% of this game is all mental, and the other half is all in your head!")
All iron sights, sub six hold, mostly slow fire (but with proper recovery, rapid fire service pistol is just sustained slow fire).
One set of skills.
By the time the recoil hits the round is downrange.
You just have to learn and condition yourself to shoot through the shot, and not quit on it too early . . .
Steve Swartz
(p.s. it's amazing how many times I- and a whole lot of other "devilish" guys in this forum- have seen some guy at the range shooting a "500 Tyrannosaur" all over the map and be ready to toss the gun away in disgust . . . until the mild mannered international air pistol shooter puts up a cloverleaf 5 shot group into the 25 yard target. What was that Yogi Berra said: "90% of this game is all mental, and the other half is all in your head!")
Steve Swartz
(p.s. it's amazing how many times I- and a whole lot of other "devilish" guys in this forum- have seen some guy at the range shooting a "500 Tyrannosaur" all over the map and be ready to toss the gun away in disgust . . . until the mild mannered international air pistol shooter puts up a cloverleaf 5 shot group into the 25 yard target.
I love those Stereotype exaggerations... Big musclebound Neanderthal shooting some canon " all over the map " tossing the gun down in disgust , only for the gun to be picked up by our " International Air Pistol Shooter " who deftly places a four leaf clover group in the ten ring of the 25yard target !! Our AP shooter is what? Of slight build , tidily dressed , clean shaved ? Nice gucci loafers ? the cliche goes on....
Its an exaggeration of course... but nontheless proves the point !
Elmas.
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(p.s. it's amazing how many times I- and a whole lot of other "devilish" guys in this forum- have seen some guy at the range shooting a "500 Tyrannosaur" all over the map and be ready to toss the gun away in disgust . . . until the mild mannered international air pistol shooter puts up a cloverleaf 5 shot group into the 25 yard target.
I love those Stereotype exaggerations... Big musclebound Neanderthal shooting some canon " all over the map " tossing the gun down in disgust , only for the gun to be picked up by our " International Air Pistol Shooter " who deftly places a four leaf clover group in the ten ring of the 25yard target !! Our AP shooter is what? Of slight build , tidily dressed , clean shaved ? Nice gucci loafers ? the cliche goes on....
Its an exaggeration of course... but nontheless proves the point !
Elmas.
.
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Guest
This is an interesting topic since I myself shoot pretty much anything I come over. Although I only practice FP, AP and 25m Centerfire I compete i numerous disciplines, some only found here in Sweden. I think it's possible to be fairly successfull in just about anything with just plenty of quality training in one or more of these disciplines and a serious competitive mindset.
For example, I never fired a free pistol this spring. There was a local competition held at my club so I loaned an old Hämmerli 150 and went down to the range. After 15 rounds of zeroing the sights and getting used to the extremely light trigger I shot 553. That was a very high score, and how was that possible? I was used to shooting the precision disciplines and I simply put just thought to myself "if I can shoot tens at 25m with +1kg I should be able to shoot nines at 50m with 20 grams. How hard can it be? Obviously it worked. I was relaxed and all about enjoying the 2 hours of shooting. I always try to take this with me to all competitions. Just relax, have fun. No matter what type of discipline you CAN do "fine". Maybe it wont be enough to win, you CAN do a good job.
Also.. later that day I shot my first 25m centerfire competition. A 576p was enough to win. But that was with my own gun which I was fairly used to.
Just another example. I was at a competition later this summer to shoot the FP. A very nice 557 got me in a very good mood. And I had my Hämmmerli 280 .22lr standardpistol with me (don't ask why). So a friend convinced me to try the rapid fire event the same day. And I did. I relaxed, enjoyd the "trip" and did my best. That was a 549 with only one string below 45p. Again! Relax, enjoy and focus on the mindset "you can do it, just do it".
My point beeing. If you are a good shooter you should be able to pick up just about anything and shoot "fairly good". The very second you start thinking "I've never done this before, I probably suck at it!" you loose! No matter what discipline. If you can shoot you can shoot.
It should be noted though that when you start talking about world championship, the olympics and world cup it's at such a high level that you probably have to be VERY specialized in your discipline to be competitive.
For example, I never fired a free pistol this spring. There was a local competition held at my club so I loaned an old Hämmerli 150 and went down to the range. After 15 rounds of zeroing the sights and getting used to the extremely light trigger I shot 553. That was a very high score, and how was that possible? I was used to shooting the precision disciplines and I simply put just thought to myself "if I can shoot tens at 25m with +1kg I should be able to shoot nines at 50m with 20 grams. How hard can it be? Obviously it worked. I was relaxed and all about enjoying the 2 hours of shooting. I always try to take this with me to all competitions. Just relax, have fun. No matter what type of discipline you CAN do "fine". Maybe it wont be enough to win, you CAN do a good job.
Also.. later that day I shot my first 25m centerfire competition. A 576p was enough to win. But that was with my own gun which I was fairly used to.
Just another example. I was at a competition later this summer to shoot the FP. A very nice 557 got me in a very good mood. And I had my Hämmmerli 280 .22lr standardpistol with me (don't ask why). So a friend convinced me to try the rapid fire event the same day. And I did. I relaxed, enjoyd the "trip" and did my best. That was a 549 with only one string below 45p. Again! Relax, enjoy and focus on the mindset "you can do it, just do it".
My point beeing. If you are a good shooter you should be able to pick up just about anything and shoot "fairly good". The very second you start thinking "I've never done this before, I probably suck at it!" you loose! No matter what discipline. If you can shoot you can shoot.
It should be noted though that when you start talking about world championship, the olympics and world cup it's at such a high level that you probably have to be VERY specialized in your discipline to be competitive.
This is an interesting topic since I myself shoot pretty much anything I come over. Although I only practice FP, AP and 25m Centerfire I compete i numerous disciplines, some only found here in Sweden. I think it's possible to be fairly successfull in just about anything with just plenty of quality training in one or more of these disciplines and a serious competitive mindset.
For example, I had never fired a free pistol up until this spring. There was a local competition held at my club so I loaned an old Hämmerli 150 and went down to the range. After 15 rounds of zeroing the sights and getting used to the extremely light trigger I shot 553. That was a very high score, and how was that possible? I was used to shooting the precision disciplines and I simply put just thought to myself "if I can shoot tens at 25m with +1kg I should be able to shoot nines at 50m with 20 grams. How hard can it be? Obviously it worked. I was relaxed and all about enjoying the 2 hours of shooting. I always try to take this with me to all competitions. Just relax, have fun. No matter what type of discipline you CAN do "fine". Maybe it wont be enough to win, you CAN do a good job.
Also.. later that day I shot my first 25m centerfire competition. A 576p was enough to win. But that was with my own gun which I was fairly used to.
Just another example. I was at a competition later this summer to shoot the FP. A very nice 557 got me in a very good mood. And I had my Hämmmerli 280 .22lr standardpistol with me (don't ask why). So a friend convinced me to try the rapid fire event the same day. And I did. I relaxed, enjoyd the "trip" and did my best. That was a 549 with only one string below 45p. Again! Relax, enjoy and focus on the mindset "you can do it, just do it".
My point beeing. If you are a good shooter you should be able to pick up just about anything and shoot "fairly good". The very second you start thinking "I've never done this before, I probably suck at it!" you loose! No matter what discipline. If you can shoot you can shoot.
It should be noted though that when you start talking about world championship, the olympics and world cup it's at such a high level that you probably have to be VERY specialized in your discipline to be competitive.
For example, I had never fired a free pistol up until this spring. There was a local competition held at my club so I loaned an old Hämmerli 150 and went down to the range. After 15 rounds of zeroing the sights and getting used to the extremely light trigger I shot 553. That was a very high score, and how was that possible? I was used to shooting the precision disciplines and I simply put just thought to myself "if I can shoot tens at 25m with +1kg I should be able to shoot nines at 50m with 20 grams. How hard can it be? Obviously it worked. I was relaxed and all about enjoying the 2 hours of shooting. I always try to take this with me to all competitions. Just relax, have fun. No matter what type of discipline you CAN do "fine". Maybe it wont be enough to win, you CAN do a good job.
Also.. later that day I shot my first 25m centerfire competition. A 576p was enough to win. But that was with my own gun which I was fairly used to.
Just another example. I was at a competition later this summer to shoot the FP. A very nice 557 got me in a very good mood. And I had my Hämmmerli 280 .22lr standardpistol with me (don't ask why). So a friend convinced me to try the rapid fire event the same day. And I did. I relaxed, enjoyd the "trip" and did my best. That was a 549 with only one string below 45p. Again! Relax, enjoy and focus on the mindset "you can do it, just do it".
My point beeing. If you are a good shooter you should be able to pick up just about anything and shoot "fairly good". The very second you start thinking "I've never done this before, I probably suck at it!" you loose! No matter what discipline. If you can shoot you can shoot.
It should be noted though that when you start talking about world championship, the olympics and world cup it's at such a high level that you probably have to be VERY specialized in your discipline to be competitive.
Not just because they shoot service pistol, but if they trained in the other disiplines why wouldn't they be able to? They all have transferable skills but are different in there own way.Elmas wrote:jackh wrote:
The very impressive score of 290/300 with American Service Pistol is to me "world class". Same with Olympic level FP and AP. The games are just different.
My question(s) included : Can someone shooting 290/300 in American Service Pistol also shoot FP in the 560's and AP in the 580's ? Probably not .. .
It always seemed to me that while the fundamentals stay the same, each match emphaizes different strengths.
FP is no-holds-barred precision. No limits, just pure accuracy. AP is similar, but the heavier triggers and different grips mean that the techniques are subtly different.
RF is a completely different animal. If FP is a 10K run, RF is a 100m sprint. Speed and timing are added to the demands of precision.
Standard and CF are probably the best blends - you have to be a good all-round shooter to excel.
NRA Bullesye? A marathon match. Conditioning is essential.
Then we have the MLAIC disciplines.....which are physically pretty simple, but VERY demanding mentally. When you have 13 shots separating you from the World Championship, you cannot afford the kind of mental slip-ups that a cartridge shooter can overcome. Particularly when you get to do it with flintlock and even matchlock arms.
FP is no-holds-barred precision. No limits, just pure accuracy. AP is similar, but the heavier triggers and different grips mean that the techniques are subtly different.
RF is a completely different animal. If FP is a 10K run, RF is a 100m sprint. Speed and timing are added to the demands of precision.
Standard and CF are probably the best blends - you have to be a good all-round shooter to excel.
NRA Bullesye? A marathon match. Conditioning is essential.
Then we have the MLAIC disciplines.....which are physically pretty simple, but VERY demanding mentally. When you have 13 shots separating you from the World Championship, you cannot afford the kind of mental slip-ups that a cartridge shooter can overcome. Particularly when you get to do it with flintlock and even matchlock arms.
In about 11 years of state and national level competitions (Combat, Bullseye and International), if you can shoot Free Pistol well, you can shoot any precision or slow-fire pistol very well. It is the most demanding. I've seen other extremely accomplished pistol shooters of other disciplines be humbled after shooting Free pistol for 2 or 3 years.
In my opinion...
In my opinion...