I've been shooting AP for nearly a year. Once I was up and started - no doubt already with bad self taught habits I used this forum to obtain helpful information. Shooting at a blank target was advice given time and time again. So that's what I've been doing at least 3 times a week for about 9 months.
I remember reading a lot of posts from Steve Swartz, Ed Hall, and lots of the regulars, about the importance of this type of training. Steve mentioning that out of 100 training executions - 40 at least should be at a blank target. I've certainly kept that ratio -maybe even more.
Also mentioned that very quickly the grouping would get smaller - around 2.5cm diameter. That's where I'm letting myself down. When I started the target looked like it had measles - holes everywhere. After a month or so the grouping area seemed to always be around 6cm x 6cm. The last couple of months a little smaller - 40cm x 35cm. But I can't get the grouping any better than that. (40 shots) Good lighting, nice pistol (LP 10) - front sight focus - good follow through. Sure some lousy shots, but I 'rate' my shots each time - observing whether I'm following the main principles. Admittedly - trigger control is the one thing that I've really tried to concentrate on. I start with a nice even positive squeeze, see a nice sight alignment, focus intently on the black of the front sight - and often (oh so very often) - nothing happens and I find myself making a conscious decision to continue the squeeze and then a conscious shot eventuates. Any hints on how I can get my release to be as it should - sub-conscious?
Dry firing against a blank surface and the bull... highlights the same problem. Live fire against the bull and I still find my trigger pressure squeeze 'stops' - even though I think I'm still squeezing. Am I the only one with this scenario?
Blank Target Training and Results
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Steve Swartz
Trigger pressure should be increased to the hold point once the target is engaged. After that, when increased, it should always be smoothly and consistenly increased WITH NO DEVIATION.
O.K., for some reason you are refusing to do that.
Here's a drill that was mentioned that you probably forgot about. Dry fire a million times WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED concentrating 100% on smooth, continuous, uninterrupted pressure straight to the rear.
After every 50 or so repetitions of eyes closed smooth trigger pressure, try a few with your eyes open (to check for quality of vector/pressure angle- no sight alignment movement) then immediately go back to eyes closed drills.
The purpose is to TRAIN yourself to press the trigger properly and confidently even with your eyes open and distracting things to look at. Trigger press must be totally automatic and consistent. You aren't there yet apparently?
If you still find yourself with a hitch in your get along even with your eyes closed . . .
Steve Swartz
O.K., for some reason you are refusing to do that.
Here's a drill that was mentioned that you probably forgot about. Dry fire a million times WITH YOUR EYES CLOSED concentrating 100% on smooth, continuous, uninterrupted pressure straight to the rear.
After every 50 or so repetitions of eyes closed smooth trigger pressure, try a few with your eyes open (to check for quality of vector/pressure angle- no sight alignment movement) then immediately go back to eyes closed drills.
The purpose is to TRAIN yourself to press the trigger properly and confidently even with your eyes open and distracting things to look at. Trigger press must be totally automatic and consistent. You aren't there yet apparently?
If you still find yourself with a hitch in your get along even with your eyes closed . . .
Steve Swartz
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John Ariani
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:25 pm
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Steve Swartz
John:
Sorry- I re-read my response and thought "Dang, thast Swartz guy sounded grouchy!" Didn't mean to make it sound like I was "scolding" you!
The key thing to remember is the overall process you are trying to improve- the whole settle-focus on front sight-align-subconscious release process. When training, we are trying to improve the individual behavioral elements; so our drills will focus on one distinct sub-process (like trigger pressure). But we have to keep in mind what behaviors we are looking for.
In this case, we want our "terminal squeeze" (that application of pressure leading inexorably to the release of the shot) to be 100% CONSISTENT in speed and pressure (the "response curve") as well as 100% STABLE (in terms of not disturbing sight alignment).
So we want to train with repetitive drills to achieve both consistency AND stability. If our squeeze is 100% reliably crooked, no dice. If our squeeze is 100% perfectly stable, but takes 30 milliseconds one time and 150 milliseconds the next, also no dice. We need to be able to apply pressure for teh same exact time with no disruption to front sight.
Yeah- that's not easy.
So anyway, that's why you rotate between eyes closed vs. open drills. Each drill works one or the other related aspect of perfect trigger control- and you've got to have both.
The good news is that eventually (after maybe a year or so) you won't have to worry about perfect trigger control (much) anymore. And then you can worry more about all the other stuff!
Steve Swartz
Sorry- I re-read my response and thought "Dang, thast Swartz guy sounded grouchy!" Didn't mean to make it sound like I was "scolding" you!
The key thing to remember is the overall process you are trying to improve- the whole settle-focus on front sight-align-subconscious release process. When training, we are trying to improve the individual behavioral elements; so our drills will focus on one distinct sub-process (like trigger pressure). But we have to keep in mind what behaviors we are looking for.
In this case, we want our "terminal squeeze" (that application of pressure leading inexorably to the release of the shot) to be 100% CONSISTENT in speed and pressure (the "response curve") as well as 100% STABLE (in terms of not disturbing sight alignment).
So we want to train with repetitive drills to achieve both consistency AND stability. If our squeeze is 100% reliably crooked, no dice. If our squeeze is 100% perfectly stable, but takes 30 milliseconds one time and 150 milliseconds the next, also no dice. We need to be able to apply pressure for teh same exact time with no disruption to front sight.
Yeah- that's not easy.
So anyway, that's why you rotate between eyes closed vs. open drills. Each drill works one or the other related aspect of perfect trigger control- and you've got to have both.
The good news is that eventually (after maybe a year or so) you won't have to worry about perfect trigger control (much) anymore. And then you can worry more about all the other stuff!
Steve Swartz
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Ed Hall
I'd like to add to what Steve Swartz has provided, if I may. I promote even more steps between not looking and firing at a bull.
Of course, I agree with the part of studying what the trigger feels like without looking at it. In fact, I promote ingraining that operation so deeply that it is reproduced through all the other steps. Those other steps come in the form of moving to observing the gun from above and the side as you perform the exact same trigger operation, resting your arm in a comfortable manner which allows you to observe the sights while perfroming the exact same trigger operation, moving to your normal stance against a blank surface with the exact same trigger operation and finally, placing those sights against a target with the exact same trigger operation. Did I mention that I consider it important to have the exact same trigger operation for each?<smile>
Let's expand each a bit, but first we'll add a preface. This operation can be from the initial start of the trigger or the final phase. It can include the first stage for a multi-stage trigger or be confined to the last stage. It can be short in duration or long. It needs to be the operation that will finalize the shot - the one that causes the firing. With all the variables, it needs to become the one constant in your shot plan, dependable to be the same every time you perform it. So you will need to decide which parts you will include and build from there. On to the details:
1) - study the trigger operation without looking at the gun. Do this in a safe manner with the EMPTY gun (set up for DRY FIRE) pointed into a safe area. It might be good to do this at the range, but instead of closing your eyes, simply look at where you are pointing the gun and spend time feeling what it takes to make the hammer/striker release. You can do this with the gun comfortably placed in your lap (and pointed in a safe direction down range). Again, learn the feel and the timing of the most natural trigger operation you will make.
2) - observe the gun from the side and from above during the trigger operation. Don't become uncomfortably contorted trying to perform this step. Simply make observations as to how the gun reacts when you operate the trigger in the same way you did when you weren't looking. Optimally, you will observe the gun with no discernable movement. If it does make an abrupt movement, study what it would take to change something such that it doesn't move. If you change something in the way you address the trigger, go back to the previous step.
3) - rest your arm in a manner that you can see the sights while you operate the trigger. Have your rest point back from the wrist and have a plain background to see your sights against. Work toward the same trigger operation you had before. Reference back and forth, if you need to.
4) - take your normal stance against a blank surface and practice the exact same trigger operation from the previous steps. Work toward the exact same timing and feel across all the steps.
5) - finally, move to using an appropriate target to dry fire against. Again, work toward the exact same trigger operation.
OK, I think I said "same trigger operation" nearly as many times as Joey said, "Shane" in the movie, but that's because I consider it an important part of the process. But, don't forget all those other parts...
All comments welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Of course, I agree with the part of studying what the trigger feels like without looking at it. In fact, I promote ingraining that operation so deeply that it is reproduced through all the other steps. Those other steps come in the form of moving to observing the gun from above and the side as you perform the exact same trigger operation, resting your arm in a comfortable manner which allows you to observe the sights while perfroming the exact same trigger operation, moving to your normal stance against a blank surface with the exact same trigger operation and finally, placing those sights against a target with the exact same trigger operation. Did I mention that I consider it important to have the exact same trigger operation for each?<smile>
Let's expand each a bit, but first we'll add a preface. This operation can be from the initial start of the trigger or the final phase. It can include the first stage for a multi-stage trigger or be confined to the last stage. It can be short in duration or long. It needs to be the operation that will finalize the shot - the one that causes the firing. With all the variables, it needs to become the one constant in your shot plan, dependable to be the same every time you perform it. So you will need to decide which parts you will include and build from there. On to the details:
1) - study the trigger operation without looking at the gun. Do this in a safe manner with the EMPTY gun (set up for DRY FIRE) pointed into a safe area. It might be good to do this at the range, but instead of closing your eyes, simply look at where you are pointing the gun and spend time feeling what it takes to make the hammer/striker release. You can do this with the gun comfortably placed in your lap (and pointed in a safe direction down range). Again, learn the feel and the timing of the most natural trigger operation you will make.
2) - observe the gun from the side and from above during the trigger operation. Don't become uncomfortably contorted trying to perform this step. Simply make observations as to how the gun reacts when you operate the trigger in the same way you did when you weren't looking. Optimally, you will observe the gun with no discernable movement. If it does make an abrupt movement, study what it would take to change something such that it doesn't move. If you change something in the way you address the trigger, go back to the previous step.
3) - rest your arm in a manner that you can see the sights while you operate the trigger. Have your rest point back from the wrist and have a plain background to see your sights against. Work toward the same trigger operation you had before. Reference back and forth, if you need to.
4) - take your normal stance against a blank surface and practice the exact same trigger operation from the previous steps. Work toward the exact same timing and feel across all the steps.
5) - finally, move to using an appropriate target to dry fire against. Again, work toward the exact same trigger operation.
OK, I think I said "same trigger operation" nearly as many times as Joey said, "Shane" in the movie, but that's because I consider it an important part of the process. But, don't forget all those other parts...
All comments welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Steve Swartz
Yep.
From previous posts, I have 10 trigger drills. This is what I have to referred to as "pyramiding" your drills (start with least integrated, least complicated disaggregation of skills and build up to most complicated skills):
1. Dry Fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
2. Dry fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
3. Dry fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
4. Live fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
5. Live fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
6. Live fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
7. Dry fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
8. Dry fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
9. Live fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
10. Live fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
Each drill builds on skills developed in previous exercise.
Steve Swartz
From previous posts, I have 10 trigger drills. This is what I have to referred to as "pyramiding" your drills (start with least integrated, least complicated disaggregation of skills and build up to most complicated skills):
1. Dry Fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
2. Dry fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
3. Dry fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
4. Live fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
5. Live fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
6. Live fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
7. Dry fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
8. Dry fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
9. Live fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
10. Live fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
Each drill builds on skills developed in previous exercise.
Steve Swartz
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Ed Hall
Hi Rob,RobStubbs wrote:What does the with shot plan mean ?
I'm not Steve, but I hope he won't mind my input. He can scold and correct me as he sees fit...
He is referring to using all the steps you have added to the list of things you must address to perform a shot (or in sustained fire, a string of shots). For a newer shooter, the list might contain many steps. As one progresses the shot plan evolves and may very well contain fewer items. The shot plan should be easily readable from your shooting posistion.
Basically, a shot plan will look something like this:
- check stance (maybe some details)
- grip pistol (more details, if needed)
- check NPA
- relax shoulders, etc.
- visualize ten (hold for count of three)
- load pistol
- settle body
- verify own target
- breathe fully in and out twice
- raise pistol above target with inhale
- visualize perfect sights with release of shot
- lower pistol to settle with exhale to comfortable stop
- start trigger
- BURN hole in front sight with heat vision
- wait for shot
- hold for count of two after shot
- lower pistol
- hold image of what picture looked like for two count
- visualize perfect ten
- check shot
- relax
For your dry fire, you should include all the appropriate steps just as you would for live fire. That way you are practicing exactly what you will do in competition. Be sure to add visualization to the mix, to include SEEING the ten that you would have shot.
It is important to personally create your own shot plan, adding and removing items as you see fit.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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CR10XGuest
One "dry fire" training drill that I use (a lot) that was not mentioned by Steve or Ed is not firing at all. This was an especially important drill for me when I was trying to break down the trigger process into specific parts and training drills.
Simply use a blank target or wall and put the safety on or screw in that already too short overtravel screw until the gun will not fire.
Assume your firing position, bring up the gun and do your trigger press.
WATCH the front sight and keep everything aligned as you continue the trigger press. See how much (or how little) trigger pressure it takes until the trigger press interfers with the sight alignment (and how it changes it). There will be no sear release, click or other indication that you have produces enough pressure to actually fire the gun.
Do this a few times or few thousand times until you can comfortably compress the trigger with a "substantial" amount of pressure and still maintain sight alignment. How much? Don't break your gun, but that depends on your goals and what you shoot.
(Since this is a blank drill, there is no target to interfer with trying to hold the sight picture as well).
This drill will quickly let you know how much of that trigger misalignment is due to your trigger finger, milking the grip, etc. AND hopefully develop some habits that will assist in the all important follow through.
Good Luck.
Cecil Rhodes
Simply use a blank target or wall and put the safety on or screw in that already too short overtravel screw until the gun will not fire.
Assume your firing position, bring up the gun and do your trigger press.
WATCH the front sight and keep everything aligned as you continue the trigger press. See how much (or how little) trigger pressure it takes until the trigger press interfers with the sight alignment (and how it changes it). There will be no sear release, click or other indication that you have produces enough pressure to actually fire the gun.
Do this a few times or few thousand times until you can comfortably compress the trigger with a "substantial" amount of pressure and still maintain sight alignment. How much? Don't break your gun, but that depends on your goals and what you shoot.
(Since this is a blank drill, there is no target to interfer with trying to hold the sight picture as well).
This drill will quickly let you know how much of that trigger misalignment is due to your trigger finger, milking the grip, etc. AND hopefully develop some habits that will assist in the all important follow through.
Good Luck.
Cecil Rhodes
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Steve Swartz
From previous posts, this is real easy with Morini electronic trigger. I call it dry fire "pumps" or "pulling against the spring."
Right now my foundations training includes blank target snaps, blank target pumps, bull target snaps, and bull target pumps on alternating days monday through thursday. Friday is pumps against a 10-ring sized rectangle (white rectangle embedded in dark tan poster- align on rectangle and keep aligned front sight inside rectangle while pumping trigger all the way though first and second stages).
All workouts start with arm supported, move through with shot plan, and end with snaps/pumps against 5 targets/aiming areas arranged in a star pattern.
Steve Swartz
Right now my foundations training includes blank target snaps, blank target pumps, bull target snaps, and bull target pumps on alternating days monday through thursday. Friday is pumps against a 10-ring sized rectangle (white rectangle embedded in dark tan poster- align on rectangle and keep aligned front sight inside rectangle while pumping trigger all the way though first and second stages).
All workouts start with arm supported, move through with shot plan, and end with snaps/pumps against 5 targets/aiming areas arranged in a star pattern.
Steve Swartz
I guess I wasn't clear I am aware of and have a shot plan, what I couldn't figure out is how else you do a dry firing session without doing the normal shot sequence (plan) ? The only time I don't do that is if I'm learning the trigger by just repeatedly dry firing it whilst seated for example.Ed Hall wrote:Hi Rob,RobStubbs wrote:What does the with shot plan mean ?
I'm not Steve, but I hope he won't mind my input. He can scold and correct me as he sees fit...
He is referring to using all the steps you have added to the list of things you must address to perform a shot (or in sustained fire, a string of shots).
<snip>
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Rob.
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
Steve, you need to compile a list of every post you've ever made... it would be great
as to:
is this just to test that you are not jerking it? and if so, how can you tell its not a drifting wrist.
I shot prone with my eyes closed, I found that when shooting NRA on scope day, the bouncing cross hairs were so distracting I just got aimed on target (the hold with a good NPA and not too much heartbeat is X-ring sized, gets worse when I get tired) closed my eyes and squeezed. I literally shot BETTER with my eyes closed than with my eyes open.
in Pistol I think my arm or wrist muscles relax (or contract) when I close my eyes, so I could drift off the paper in the few secs before the shot goes off.
your #4 says supported arm, is the wrist floating? or do your really mean "supported gun"?
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
as to:
what is the purpose of #4 Live fire, arm supported, eyes closed. ? What does it give that dry firing with eyes closed does not?From previous posts, I have 10 trigger drills. This is what I have to referred to as "pyramiding" your drills (start with least integrated, least complicated disaggregation of skills and build up to most complicated skills):
1. Dry Fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
2. Dry fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
3. Dry fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
4. Live fire, arm supported, eyes closed.
5. Live fire, arm supported, against blank, eyes open.
6. Live fire, with shot plan, against blank, eyes open.
7. Dry fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
8. Dry fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
9. Live fire, arm supported, against bull, eyes open.
10. Live fire, with shot plan, against bull, eyes open.
Each drill builds on skills developed in previous exercise.
is this just to test that you are not jerking it? and if so, how can you tell its not a drifting wrist.
I shot prone with my eyes closed, I found that when shooting NRA on scope day, the bouncing cross hairs were so distracting I just got aimed on target (the hold with a good NPA and not too much heartbeat is X-ring sized, gets worse when I get tired) closed my eyes and squeezed. I literally shot BETTER with my eyes closed than with my eyes open.
in Pistol I think my arm or wrist muscles relax (or contract) when I close my eyes, so I could drift off the paper in the few secs before the shot goes off.
your #4 says supported arm, is the wrist floating? or do your really mean "supported gun"?
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
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Steve Swartz
Bill:
Naw- if I compiled all my posts it would compete with Ed's excellent web site ramblings . . . we have talked about collaborating on a book though . . . we are kinda like the "Click and Clack" (car guys on NPR) of target shooting!
To point: the purpose is to concentrate on the "feel" of perfect trigger; especially follow throguh under recoil. Try some dry/live fire alternating with eyes closed and you'll see (so to speak) what I mean. It does take a little different thought process under recoil.
NOTE: RIGOROUS SAFETY PROCESS MUST BE USED AT ALL TIMES! THIS IS FOR AIR ONLY WITH MUZZLE FIRMLY INSIDE PELLET TRAP!!!!
As the country song says: "Don't Ask Me How I Know!"
As you found out (shooting rifle? Bold!) live fire eyes closed can be a very interesting drill. See safety message above. Not sure I would have done it with a rifle at high-power ranges. YMMV.
Anyhow- arm supported; wrist floating (this is important to develop the right "feel"). Just make sure the pellet will go somewhere safe. This drill has nothing to do with holes in paper! If you become aware that by feel alone your wrist will "drift" then that is important information- does that mean that you have to "un-naturally bend" your wrist for NPA when your eyes are open?
Hmmmm.
Anyhow
Key point is that additional information is provided from dry to live fire with eyes closed. My grip fine tuning includes a session of this to make sure I have no side loads (well, not much side load) during shot release. This really helps the gun to magically appear with sights aligned in aiming area at beginning of terminal approach to shot plan.
Steve Swartz
Naw- if I compiled all my posts it would compete with Ed's excellent web site ramblings . . . we have talked about collaborating on a book though . . . we are kinda like the "Click and Clack" (car guys on NPR) of target shooting!
To point: the purpose is to concentrate on the "feel" of perfect trigger; especially follow throguh under recoil. Try some dry/live fire alternating with eyes closed and you'll see (so to speak) what I mean. It does take a little different thought process under recoil.
NOTE: RIGOROUS SAFETY PROCESS MUST BE USED AT ALL TIMES! THIS IS FOR AIR ONLY WITH MUZZLE FIRMLY INSIDE PELLET TRAP!!!!
As the country song says: "Don't Ask Me How I Know!"
As you found out (shooting rifle? Bold!) live fire eyes closed can be a very interesting drill. See safety message above. Not sure I would have done it with a rifle at high-power ranges. YMMV.
Anyhow- arm supported; wrist floating (this is important to develop the right "feel"). Just make sure the pellet will go somewhere safe. This drill has nothing to do with holes in paper! If you become aware that by feel alone your wrist will "drift" then that is important information- does that mean that you have to "un-naturally bend" your wrist for NPA when your eyes are open?
Hmmmm.
Anyhow
Key point is that additional information is provided from dry to live fire with eyes closed. My grip fine tuning includes a session of this to make sure I have no side loads (well, not much side load) during shot release. This really helps the gun to magically appear with sights aligned in aiming area at beginning of terminal approach to shot plan.
Steve Swartz
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
my rifle experiment was smallbore at 50yd or meter prone with the sling, coat, hooked buttplate, you can't move the muzzle hardly off the paper without a major movement
and I had a whole mountain for an impact area
but i was concerned that i was subconciously jerking the trigger in order to "catch" the shot just as those bouncing cross hairs flew thru the middle of the X-ring, and the purpose of the experiment was to see if not seeing the crosshairs prevented it, I believe it does, but I have not yet had the courage to try it in a match yet
Poole
and I had a whole mountain for an impact area
but i was concerned that i was subconciously jerking the trigger in order to "catch" the shot just as those bouncing cross hairs flew thru the middle of the X-ring, and the purpose of the experiment was to see if not seeing the crosshairs prevented it, I believe it does, but I have not yet had the courage to try it in a match yet
Poole
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
I recall learning about some other holding (no dry fire) drills put a vertical line on the wall, hold on that, put a horizontal line on the wall, hold on that, put a cross on the wall, hold on that. (have seen printed targets with these patterns)
hold the sights aligned and draw a horizontal figure 8 with the pistol (got this one from warren potter, supposedly it builds strenght)
any thoughts?
of course i had forgotten all of these things.... maybe I should rebuild my long lost training plan
Poole
hold the sights aligned and draw a horizontal figure 8 with the pistol (got this one from warren potter, supposedly it builds strenght)
any thoughts?
of course i had forgotten all of these things.... maybe I should rebuild my long lost training plan
Poole