International Centerfire techniques

[Nicole Hamilton]

We're about to start an International Centerfire league on the 25-yard range at Kenmore in Bothel, WA, where I shoot. This will be the first time I've done this. Each match consists of 30 shots slow and 30 shots rapid. The slow fire course is pretty ordinary and the targets are the same B-19s as used for SP. But the rapid series is unusual, 3 seconds for each shot and 7 seconds between shots on a B-38. The first time I saw the B-38 I was amazed: The black is HUGE, almost 18 inches across! There's almost no white anywhere on the paper.

Pretty obviously, no one could possibly be using 6 o'clock hold on the B-38. I doubt most guns would have the range in elevation for sight adjustments and anyway, it'd take so many clicks, I can't see anyone doing this in the middle of a match. So I expect the idea is that you just swing the gun up, get a rough center of mass sight picture and pull.

But I'm curious to hear comments from folks who've shot this course of fire about your impressions and what techniques seemed to work well for you.

[RobStubbs]

Nicole,
I'm forced to shoot it with air in the UK, but I have started shooting it with centrefire pistols abroad. You're right in that most people centre aim but it is suprisingly accurate and it's not unusual to get a series of 5 shots all in the 10 ring. That is also the same target used for olympic rapid fire so again that shows how 'easy' it is to hit centre. I also find it pretty easy to find the sight picture although black on black would make you think otherwise.

Rob.

[deleted1]

Hi Nicole, welcome to the Centre Fire experience. There are some who do use a six o'clock hold for Precision Fire and change their sights for the Duello (Rapid Fire) portion. I use Centre hold through all my shooting AP, FP, SP & CF. I use the COM to aim in Duello and it works well enough for me, after all I am not competing to be a world, local champion. The problem with the Duello phase is the starting (ready) position for all shots, and the raise & alignment and shot within 3 seconds. Believe it or not that 3 seconds is plenty of time to get off a good shot without every ending at seven o'clock and off the paper. If you have a reliable timing system to rely upon----you develop a rythm for the seven seconds down and three seconds to "lift", sight and shoot. You need the same skill as in RF to raise the gun efficiently with the sights aligned, pick up the target settle down and squeeze in three seconds. With RF I use a two-target setup and practise the lift first and second shots primarily during practise and only move to the five bull before matches. You can develop that same skill for the duello portion of the CF match, to practise the lift and shot with your own timing system. Target Timers of Canada makes an excellent practise "caller" for all ISU and Bullseye and PPC events. I use this or the ranges duello timer (loud buzzer) to practise the duello. When 7 & 3 seconds become muscle memory the duello scores rocket. We have an Industrial League that sponsors a modified CF match---15 Precision & 15 Duello---and they allow dot-sights. I find the CF event to be a joy to shoot and enter the Industrial League shoots and the ISSF (USA) PTO's. Good Luck

[Nicole Hamilton]

Thanks for the quick response, Rob. I'm actually not that surprised that the groups might be pretty good. My experience shooting at blank targets both when I've done it myself and when I've had beginning students start with that (so they have to focus on the front sight because that's all they have to look at :) has been that you really don't need a bullseye to get a good group. I hadn't thought about that "black on black" sight picture but I guess you're right, even that probably works.

Also, if you normally use a 6 o'clock hold on a B-19 but COM on the B-38 and you don't adjust your sights, you'll be about 3-1/2" low. But it sounds like, given the size of the scoring rings and the limited time you have to get the shot off, yada, yada, that nobody worries about that. Is that right?

[Steve Swartz]

Thanks for making the effort to expand your match offerings! Center fire matches are darned few and far between anymore; and that's a shame because it's a great discipline to shoot.

I use sub six for precision (same in all my slow fire). In Duel, there are white horizontal "alignment lines" at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. I use a sub center hold- well, it's a center hold with the white alignment lines visible- and this works pretty well because alignment is what matters anyhow.

Of course YMMV; I don't shoot it enough to really be competitive

Steve Swartz

[David Levene]

The problem I always found with shooting centre hold on the rapid target is that, because the black is so big, the width of the black does not change much if you are shooting anywhere between a high and low 8 (or even worse).

For that reason, when I was competing, I always area aimed somewhere in the bottom half of the target. I don't know exactly where, only that an incorrect elevation gave me a noticeable difference in the width of the black.

Using the horizontal white lines as a reference never worked for me as I could never see them.

[Lee Jr]

The CF match is my favorite and I just got to shoot a match this last weekend in Indy. I use a sub-six hold for precision and a center hold for duel. Using a Manurhin revolver, which has a nice large rear sight, I find that I am able to line my sights up with the horzontal alignment bars on the rapid fire target. The lift technique is everything in the duel stage; by this I mean that you need to develop and practice a good technique so that you can be aligned on the target in no more that 1.5 seconds in order to use the remaining time to squeeze off the shot. It is extremely easy to feel rushed for time if your technique is not good resulting in jerked shots. If your sights are aligned and you are able to squeeze the trigger properly, nines or better are no problem! Good luck.

Lee

[RobStubbs]

Also, if you normally use a 6 o'clock hold on a B-19 but COM on the B-38 and you don't adjust your sights, you'll be about 3-1/2" low. But it sounds like, given the size of the scoring rings and the limited time you have to get the shot off, yada, yada, that nobody worries about that. Is that right?

Nicole,
I always change the sights between precision and rapid. Oddly enough it appears to be 8 - 10 clicks whatever gun I use, I just have to remember which direction to turn them as my HP is different to the Steyr. Remember you have a sighting series in both so that should give you the fine tuning you need.

Rob.

[Axel]

We're about to start an International Centerfire league on the 25-yard range at Kenmore in Bothel, WA, where I shoot. This will be the first time I've done this. Each match consists of 30 shots slow and 30 shots rapid. The slow fire course is pretty ordinary and the targets are the same B-19s as used for SP. But the rapid series is unusual, 3 seconds for each shot and 7 seconds between shots on a B-38. The first time I saw the B-38 I was amazed: The black is HUGE, almost 18 inches across! There's almost no white anywhere on the paper.

Pretty obviously, no one could possibly be using 6 o'clock hold on the B-38. I doubt most guns would have the range in elevation for sight adjustments and anyway, it'd take so many clicks, I can't see anyone doing this in the middle of a match. So I expect the idea is that you just swing the gun up, get a rough center of mass sight picture and pull.

But I'm curious to hear comments from folks who've shot this course of fire about your impressions and what techniques seemed to work well for you.

Hi Nicole,

About 13-15 clicks with a pardini. Yes, center hold! I think almost everybody adjusts their sights between precision stage and rapid fire stage.

Technique is obviosly very different from precision shooting. Lift pretty fast, but not to fast so you lose coordination and get the front sight alligned and carefully squeeze trigger.

Here is a video: http://www.issf.tv/media/video/2005/523 ... 0826sp.wmv

(there are more videos @ www.issf.tv)

[Nicole Hamilton]

About 13-15 clicks with a pardini. Yes, center hold! I think almost everybody adjusts their sights between precision stage and rapid fire stage.

I think you mean you go up 13 to 15 clicks to correct for that 3-1/2" elevation change from 6 o'clock in slow fire to COM in rapid, is that right?

Thanks for the link to the video. I found it helpful and reassuring that 3 seconds really is enough time for a good shot. Actually, I kind of already knew that as we've doing some 2-second drills in our monthly bullseye clinics. Two seconds is obviously no problem at all for people who already have their arms up under NRA rules and especially so for those using red dots, but even with the lift and iron sights, most of my shots weren't too embarrassing. :) This weekend, I am figuring to take my HP to that clinic specifically to get some practice in with that gun before our first match. (I've had the HP for about 6 years but I haven't shot it in about 5 of them. :)

[Tycho]

May as well do 13 clicks in the other direction and shoot 6 o'clock hold on the RF target, too. Gives you a huge advantage in dark shooting ranges, where the black gets to be really black, instead of gray. Besides, if you use the 6 hold on the precision target, it's psychologically very favoring to do the same in RF with this really BIG thing out there that makes your front sight look so steady...

[Nicole Hamilton]

[I always change the sights between precision and rapid. Oddly enough it appears to be 8 - 10 clicks whatever gun I use ... Remember you have a sighting series in both so that should give you the fine tuning you need.

Eight to 10 just "sounds" more plausible as I sort of expect that if I'm used to 6 o'clock, what that partly means is that I'm used to the center being just a little above my front sight. Obviously, I expect it's the kind of thing where you learn what to expect when you actually try it, but I have a feeling that even if I try COM, I'll likely end up holding a little lower just because that's what will happen.

[Sandy]

Nicole,

The following is a post describing a modified GSP/OSP that my daughter Lauren used while on the US National Team..
Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: OSP/GSP CONVERSION (long post).

She used sub-six for prescision and center hold for the duel stage. To simplify everything she merely changed the sights which took less than 20 seconds. The sights had a detent and were always pefectly aligned. This was done on the line while the other shooters were busy counting clicks and stressing, hoping that the clicks were OK. For duel the rear sights were wider than the ones for prescision.

Simple solution to the problem.

You should shoot and encourage other women to shoot 25m with a .22LR rather than Center Fire. It is the same course of fire and not enough women shoot it. When Lauren was sixteen she made the National Team and USA Shooting named her Female Pistol Athlete Of The Year.

Sandy

[deleted1]

Very interesting to see some information flow on this event, this is very rare occasion for us to discuss events other than FP & AP. These seem to be the premiere events ( I suppose as they should be) however WSP & CF do share targets and techniques. Thanks so much for letting us see this event being shot (WSP) as it furthered ideas that I have had regarding the duello technique. I see the AW93 is starting to spread in popularity but the good old IZH and Pardini's are welll represented. The presence of that broad white stripe is definitely a boon to the shooter if you learn to use it to an advantage. Of course I should mention that since cataract surgery and subsequent lens implants, I see those scoring rings at 50 feet and 25 yards, and have no problem picking up the X-ring.

[CROB]

Centrefire or ladies sport pistol is really two matches in one - precision and rapid fire. Precision is focus on the sights, duelling is focus on the trigger. The french blokes that dreamed it up really knew what they were doing.

I shoot it with my AW93 (20-25 clicks DOWN not up) and a S&W Model 14 (15 clicks down). The key to duelling is early trigger.

With practice you will time your breathing to be correct just as the targets turn. Lift smoothly, like a door closer. If you start too fast the front sight will drop due to inertia. Start smooth, speed up, then "glide" to a stop. Try not to overshoot. Dry fire this without concern for timing until you aren't making any significant sight adjustments. As you lift your arm, drop your eyes (not your head) down to the sights and pick them up. I try to have the sights in focus about the bottom edge of the target. As soon as you have the sights, while they are still missaligned and the gun is still moving, start pressure on the trigger - and don't stop. Trigger, trigger, trigger. You will be amazed how well even the "early" shots score.
Dry fire for perfect technique, the speed will come with confidence.

You have a huge 10 ring, so sight alignment is far less critical than trigger. If you use a revolver, randomly load an empty case and see how much you are jerking the trigger. Always follow through watching the front sight, don't be tempted to look to see if the target is still there - as always don't look at the target.

Finally you must say to yourself "I will fire my perfect shot and then the targets will turn away".

I love the sound of 15 people on the line with 32s and 38s duelling. ;-)

[Fred Mannis]

Centrefire or ladies sport pistol is really two matches in one - precision and rapid fire. Precision is focus on the sights, duelling is focus on the trigger. The french blokes that dreamed it up really knew what they were doing.

As soon as you have the sights, while they are still missaligned and the gun is still moving, start pressure on the trigger - and don't stop. Trigger, trigger, trigger. You will be amazed how well even the "early" shots score.

Great example of the subconscious control/trigger first process being discussed on the other thread. Why not use the same approach for the precision stage as well?

Fred

[Tycho]

How about reading that article by Anatolii Piddubnyy in Scott's coaching zone on pilkguns.com? He's about the only guy to come up with something new in the last 30 years, and the success of the national team coached by him speaks for itself...

[Alex L]

As you probably noticed - most people are making sight adjustments from precision to rapid fire stage.

Half are talking about 6 o'clock hold, the rest do centre hold. It is really up to the individual person as to which they prefer. However, if you have nice, sunny conditions, you can do the centre hold well, as you can see your sights. But - most of you are shooting indoors, when light conditions might not be as good, so you will have to make the choice about the conditions.

You have 5 minutes for the 5 shots of precision shooting, which should give you plenty of time to get your shots away, and assess the conditions and light of the range.

On the Rapid fire stage, the horizontal white line will give you some assistance for a centre hold. Also, because there are 3 seconds to shoot and 7 seconds rest, you must be able to count those 7 seconds. I count " one second, 2 seconds, 3 seconds" etc. when I get to 6 seconds I know the targets are about to appear, so there is no surprise when the targets turn.

If you are going to shoot centre fire seriously, think about a .32 calibre automatic pistol - not a revolver. there are a lot of firearms available today that are accurate, and - most importantly - you won't be disadvantaged with the scoring.
Then think whether you want a one stage or 2 stage trigger. and get a very good orthopaedic grip, but make sure it all fits the box, and the trigger takes the weight.

Good luck., Alex L.

[ColinC]

Hey Alex
I shot ladies match (sports pistol or .25m pistol as we have to call it in Victoria nowadays) the other day because I was too lazy to load my .38 special shells. I was amazed at how easy the match is with a .22.
I might get myself one of those soft-kick .32's like you have and then I will be able to match you. Only problem I found in the rapid fire section was I had too much time in the 7 seconds the target was turned away to think about other things. With a wheel gun you have to pull it in, recock, push it out to relock your arm, then lower it to below 45 degreees before the target turns. No time for distractions because the target is back again, but with an auto it is real easy. Just lift, shoot, slowly lower, take a breath, start to exhale and there's the target again.
See you at the Yarra Open.
Colin

[Axel]

About 13-15 clicks with a pardini. Yes, center hold! I think almost everybody adjusts their sights between precision stage and rapid fire stage.

I think you mean you go up 13 to 15 clicks to correct for that 3-1/2" elevation change from 6 o'clock in slow fire to COM in rapid, is that right?

I use about 15 clicks, depends on the sighting series, down (minus sign on pardini sight) There is plenty of time doing that in the 3 min preparation time between precision stage and rapid stage.

Careful trigger work is just as important in rapid fire as it is in precision!!!

Good luck