Steyr LP 1 used 4.48 pellet in factory test.What to use?WHY?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Steyr LP 1 used 4.48 pellet in factory test.What to use?WHY?
My LP 1 used a 4.48 pellet in the factory test when new and the 4.5 pellets is are pretty snug. Would you use a 4.48?Why?Does it matter? Is smaller more accurate? Why?
The only way to know what pellets you should use (brand / weight / diameter and perhaps batch) is to test them. FWB give you a 10 shot test target, but don't say what ammo they used to achieve it.
I setup a vice at 10m and clamped my FWB P40. I used a solid wooden frame covered with heavy cardboard and taped targets to. You are looking for variations of less than 1mm, so everything must be setup so it can't move. Normal 10m target carriers move too much from shot-to-shot.
I then fired test groups of 5 shots with different pellets. RWS, H&N and in all the diameters I could get. I tried the 7.0gn, 7.7gn and 8.2gn pellets. I would have liked to test Vogel - a distributor has just been assigned in Oz and is waiting for stock. I'll retest once I get some Vogel.
Once I found the best two groups, I then fired 10 shot groups of each to decide.
I was surprised by the variation. I had cloverleaf patterns in some groups and a single hole for others. Some H&N Finale Match groups were almost 8mm wide (I repeated them because I was so shocked). In my view that could mean a 10 became a 9 and in the worst case an 8.
In my case, 8.2gn pellets were always better than lighter pellets and 4.50mm diameter suits my pistol. A single hole the size of a pellet.
As far as I can tell the pellets your pistol will shoot best with are unique to your gun - just like .22 ammo and centrefire loads. Don't use my results, yours will be different.
As an aside, the air-rifle guys told me that they expect to get 10 shots through a single hole. And they expect to sit a pellet on that hole and it not fall through (ie hole less than 4.5mm). If they can't achieve that they get rid of the gun!
Happy testing!
PS: You will end up with a LOT of practice pellets - all the tins that don't group well.
I setup a vice at 10m and clamped my FWB P40. I used a solid wooden frame covered with heavy cardboard and taped targets to. You are looking for variations of less than 1mm, so everything must be setup so it can't move. Normal 10m target carriers move too much from shot-to-shot.
I then fired test groups of 5 shots with different pellets. RWS, H&N and in all the diameters I could get. I tried the 7.0gn, 7.7gn and 8.2gn pellets. I would have liked to test Vogel - a distributor has just been assigned in Oz and is waiting for stock. I'll retest once I get some Vogel.
Once I found the best two groups, I then fired 10 shot groups of each to decide.
I was surprised by the variation. I had cloverleaf patterns in some groups and a single hole for others. Some H&N Finale Match groups were almost 8mm wide (I repeated them because I was so shocked). In my view that could mean a 10 became a 9 and in the worst case an 8.
In my case, 8.2gn pellets were always better than lighter pellets and 4.50mm diameter suits my pistol. A single hole the size of a pellet.
As far as I can tell the pellets your pistol will shoot best with are unique to your gun - just like .22 ammo and centrefire loads. Don't use my results, yours will be different.
As an aside, the air-rifle guys told me that they expect to get 10 shots through a single hole. And they expect to sit a pellet on that hole and it not fall through (ie hole less than 4.5mm). If they can't achieve that they get rid of the gun!
Happy testing!
PS: You will end up with a LOT of practice pellets - all the tins that don't group well.
-
Guest
Really. YMMV but my results prove you can.testing pellets in a pistol is a waste time. You can't outshoot the gun.
Not to mention the confidence it gives you knowing the gun ALWAYs puts the pellet in the same place. Maybe your pistol will do that regardless of pellet, but i've seen 3 (out of 3) that wouldn't with some pellets.
I'm glad I wasted my time.
-
Guest
you say some of your 10s become 8s due to the cloverleaf pattern...but some 8s could also become 10s??
I agree, pellet testing is important up to a point with AP but not absolutely essential unlike in AR.
Most pellets will group well enough...just don't use the ones that give you a really large grouping.
I agree, pellet testing is important up to a point with AP but not absolutely essential unlike in AR.
Most pellets will group well enough...just don't use the ones that give you a really large grouping.
When the first CA guns came out all those years ago, the manufacturers told us that CA pistols would react less to different ammo. Obviously, this had to be tested. Result - seemed to be right, the 480 and the 162E would group under 7mm with mixed batches of everything except the stuff you used to get in the toy stores. Since then I've never felt the need to shoot any test groups with the AP, although I don't use 4.48mm as they clock lower speeds than 4.49 which let's me think that they let some gas pass in the barrel.
And another anecdote - some years later I wandered into the Morini factory with my 162EI. First of all (and before answering my question about the grip), they were shocked by the fact that I had cut off 3cm or so of the everything in front, including the barrel. To prove that I had made a mistake (seems that the barrels are choked at the muzzle), they went and shot some test groups. They were as good as the original - q.e.d. Not too much later they came out with the short 162, but that is probably a coincidence.
And another anecdote - some years later I wandered into the Morini factory with my 162EI. First of all (and before answering my question about the grip), they were shocked by the fact that I had cut off 3cm or so of the everything in front, including the barrel. To prove that I had made a mistake (seems that the barrels are choked at the muzzle), they went and shot some test groups. They were as good as the original - q.e.d. Not too much later they came out with the short 162, but that is probably a coincidence.
-
Guest
There will be some difference in pellets and if factory testing was done with 4.48's then I'd be inclined to use them or 4.49's. As our host says you will not outshoot the gun technically but that isn't to say pellet performance will not vary, especially if you pick the wrong size.
The only way to test them is to shoot the gun clamped and see which pellets give the smallest group sizes (with a large ish batch size).
Rob.
The only way to test them is to shoot the gun clamped and see which pellets give the smallest group sizes (with a large ish batch size).
Rob.
I agree with CROB.
The only way to find out what size/brand/weight is to test shoot..
I do not agree upon statement as they will all hold the 10.
Earlier when just starting to reach a higher performance (over 570)
I oversaw this part of my shooting, I was told same rubbish as here.
After stagnation over a Year, I did test. To my surprise the group (or lack of group)
had a total spread c/c of 13.5mm. 5 separate holes. I was shocked.
Course if I shot a PI (point of impact) of 10.9 it still would have been 10.
But most of our shots are worse than this and then a 10.0 could still give you an 8.
A few months ago we had a session in our club, testshooting a some pistols.
And yes, there was pistols giving groups of 10-13 mm c/c with wrong kind of ammo.
Pistols: steyr, walther & fwb
Ammo used : HN and RWS
When all is said and done, I seldom have had a bad lot of the JSB match or the cheaper shak.
stale
The only way to find out what size/brand/weight is to test shoot..
I do not agree upon statement as they will all hold the 10.
Earlier when just starting to reach a higher performance (over 570)
I oversaw this part of my shooting, I was told same rubbish as here.
After stagnation over a Year, I did test. To my surprise the group (or lack of group)
had a total spread c/c of 13.5mm. 5 separate holes. I was shocked.
Course if I shot a PI (point of impact) of 10.9 it still would have been 10.
But most of our shots are worse than this and then a 10.0 could still give you an 8.
A few months ago we had a session in our club, testshooting a some pistols.
And yes, there was pistols giving groups of 10-13 mm c/c with wrong kind of ammo.
Pistols: steyr, walther & fwb
Ammo used : HN and RWS
When all is said and done, I seldom have had a bad lot of the JSB match or the cheaper shak.
stale
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Re: Steyr LP 1 used 4.48 pellet in factory test.What to use?
I think Ron's question has to be taken in context. Ron is a new AP shooter, and I believe Scott is correct in advising him to spend his time training & practicing. When he can shoot 560-570 on a regular basis, then it makes sense to spend some time finding the very best pellet(s) for his pistol.darticus wrote:My LP 1 used a 4.48 pellet in the factory test when new and the 4.5 pellets is are pretty snug. Would you use a 4.48?Why?Does it matter? Is smaller more accurate? Why?
Fred
Re: Steyr LP 1 used 4.48 pellet in factory test.What to use?
Fred,Fred Mannis wrote:I think Ron's question has to be taken in context. Ron is a new AP shooter, and I believe Scott is correct in advising him to spend his time training & practicing. When he can shoot 560-570 on a regular basis, then it makes sense to spend some time finding the very best pellet(s) for his pistol.darticus wrote:My LP 1 used a 4.48 pellet in the factory test when new and the 4.5 pellets is are pretty snug. Would you use a 4.48?Why?Does it matter? Is smaller more accurate? Why?
Fred
With respect that isn't the question the poster asked. There's no point shooting pellets that are so loose as to fall out or likewise ones that are way too tight a fit. You need to at least start off with something suitable, and that means an appropriate size (and quality).
Rob.
Ya know!
Why can't anyone answer the question as asked.
I know I'm new and learning but with thoughts like is a 4.48mm pellet more accurate than a 4.5mm pellet. I am considering all you mentors as my helping point.I am a retired Chemistry Physics Bio teacher and my thoughts with a science backround were that the wind restriction on a 4.5mm pellet would be greater causing an irregular flight as compared to the 4.48mm due to air pressure under certain conditions, and the small increase in weight of the 4.5 would only compound the problem on the pellet.My lp 1 tested at the factory with a 4.48mm pellet and this might be a hint to its correct pellet. If a pellet was sloppy inside the barrel, tight or loose, this could cause problems and for me 1 point is 1 point more than before.Maybe you guys are right and I should ask these things after I practice and start shooting 560's or 570's before I ask this.Than maybe I'll never know the answer or maybe I will.We are not talking to a little idiot here! Just thinking!
I know I'm new and learning but with thoughts like is a 4.48mm pellet more accurate than a 4.5mm pellet. I am considering all you mentors as my helping point.I am a retired Chemistry Physics Bio teacher and my thoughts with a science backround were that the wind restriction on a 4.5mm pellet would be greater causing an irregular flight as compared to the 4.48mm due to air pressure under certain conditions, and the small increase in weight of the 4.5 would only compound the problem on the pellet.My lp 1 tested at the factory with a 4.48mm pellet and this might be a hint to its correct pellet. If a pellet was sloppy inside the barrel, tight or loose, this could cause problems and for me 1 point is 1 point more than before.Maybe you guys are right and I should ask these things after I practice and start shooting 560's or 570's before I ask this.Than maybe I'll never know the answer or maybe I will.We are not talking to a little idiot here! Just thinking!
Thanks for the backup Rob!
Sometimes people get ticked with a dumb or stupid question or its not important to them so they don't think it should be asked.
Than don't answer.
I still think my LP 1, with a smaller pellet could be more accurate and worth more to a champion. HA HA HA! Just kidding!
I was gonna buy tons of different pellets from Pilkguns but they said don't waste my time testing. OK!
I better watch the questions I ask.
Than don't answer.
I still think my LP 1, with a smaller pellet could be more accurate and worth more to a champion. HA HA HA! Just kidding!
I was gonna buy tons of different pellets from Pilkguns but they said don't waste my time testing. OK!
I better watch the questions I ask.
Re: Thanks for the backup Rob!
Here you go 4.48 is not more accurate than 4.49 or 4.50 or 4.51. Accuracy is not acheived by the pellet alone. It has to do with the match of the pistol barrel to the pellet. That is why people talk about testing various pellets in the gun which this question which has been asked numerous times and always ends in an argument about the value of pellet testing in air pistols.darticus wrote:Sometimes people get ticked with a dumb or stupid question or its not important to them so they don't think it should be asked.
Than don't answer.
I still think my LP 1, with a smaller pellet could be more accurate and worth more to a champion. HA HA HA! Just kidding!
I was gonna buy tons of different pellets from Pilkguns but they said don't waste my time testing. OK!
I better watch the questions I ask.
I agree with Scott that in pistol it really isn't worth it any decent brand of pellets will prodcue a ragged single hole group. Personally I would rther spend my time training than farting around testing pellets. But some get their enjoyment from tinkering and testing if thats the case more power to them.
I would bet that 4,48 pellets were what they had on hand when they tested your pistol, they did not test different size pellets in it.
Buy your self a reputable brand of pellets H&N, JSB, RWS , Vogel, ect. in 4.49 or 4.5 and enjoy. Hope that answers your question a little better.
If you choose to go the testing route you probably want to buy by the case because you'll get different results with each batch example RWS 4.49 batch number 123 may shoot the best group today where H&N 4.5 batch 456 may be better next time. So you'll have to go through the testing every time. Because 4.48 from RWS or H&N may not always produce the smallest group.
-
tilly
It's NOT a can of worms! Sheesh. Read, would you. You keep asking the same darn questions and expecting different answers. If you were really a teacher, I would have hated to be one of your students.
Being a person of science, why is it that you do not understand a concept such as manufacturing tolerances? Cause that's what is reflected differently in each individual barrel, and pellet. There is no such thing as a perfectly repeatable dimension, so bore size, cylindricity, and parallelism will vary in manufacture. Having different sizes and brands and lot #s in pellets allows us to tune the shooting results to the manufacturing variations in the barrel.
Now go and do some experiments!
Being a person of science, why is it that you do not understand a concept such as manufacturing tolerances? Cause that's what is reflected differently in each individual barrel, and pellet. There is no such thing as a perfectly repeatable dimension, so bore size, cylindricity, and parallelism will vary in manufacture. Having different sizes and brands and lot #s in pellets allows us to tune the shooting results to the manufacturing variations in the barrel.
Now go and do some experiments!
Dear Moron!
Simple question! Could a 4.48mm pellet be more accurate than a 4.5mm pellet. Done! Screw barrels, guns, shooters etc.
Relax no need to attack people. Maybe he came from a school that teaches ID.tilly wrote:It's NOT a can of worms! Sheesh. Read, would you. You keep asking the same darn questions and expecting different answers. If you were really a teacher, I would have hated to be one of your students.
Being a person of science, why is it that you do not understand a concept such as manufacturing tolerances? Cause that's what is reflected differently in each individual barrel, and pellet. There is no such thing as a perfectly repeatable dimension, so bore size, cylindricity, and parallelism will vary in manufacture. Having different sizes and brands and lot #s in pellets allows us to tune the shooting results to the manufacturing variations in the barrel.
Now go and do some experiments!
If you don't have anything constructive to add and you seem so p---off why not just move onto another thread.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Steyr LP 1 used 4.48 pellet in factory test.What to use?
To answer your questions and hopefully take some of the steam out of this thread.darticus wrote:My LP 1 used a 4.48 pellet in the factory test when new and the 4.5 pellets is are pretty snug. Would you use a 4.48?Why?Does it matter? Is smaller more accurate? Why?
You would use 4.48 if you thought, possibly after testing, that it gave more consistent results than any other size. The same could also be said about any other size.
4.48 is intrinsically no more accurate than any other size, it's the gun/pellet combination that matters.
Answering a question you didn't ask:-
The factory probably shot the test target with 4.48 because that is the tin they had open at the time.
Out of interest, I use 4.49 in my Morini 162EI. The ONLY reason I use that size is because it gave me the best recoil characteristics in my Steyr LP5. It may be totally illogical but I have never had a shot that I blamed on the pellet. Maybe I could shoot marginally higher scores with a pellet matched to my gun, or I may have been lucky and the same pellet is the best for both guns. If you have the spare time to do the testing then go ahead. If not then just use a quality pellet and get on with enjoying your shooting.