Matchguns MG-2

[David Levene]

From everything I've heard and seen, contrary to the implication above, the extractor does not extract the empty shell in a well regulated rimfire semi-auto.

Correct. The only thing that is making the extractor move to the rear is the case itself pushing the slide back.

What the extractor normally does do, in conjunction with the ejector, is ensure that the empty case is thrown clear of the pistol. The extractor is simply acting as a pivot.

[MG2-Skeptic]

Yes, Fred and David, yo are both correct in a way. The gas pressure inside the case at firing will force the case out of the chamber (and bolt rearward).

The ectractor should hold the case firmly to the boltface along the full travel of the slide, untill the ejector hits the base of the case. The extractor then acts as kind of pivotpoint, yes.

The ejector of the MG2 passes through a slot in the bottom of the bolt during the last few mms of bolt travel.
(I will in the near future performe test with emties, as I said).

With the extractor of the MG2 there is a complication. The rim of a round fed from the carrier, pushed forward by the bolt, should ideally slide under the extractor claw (like the forced feed of a Mauser). With the older carrier this caused much feeding jams, as the mid of the round was forced to hard against the lower part of chamber entrance. (This is much improved by the new carrier (cradle). Now lateral stovepipes is the plaque).

Quite often, however, during feeding, a round seems to be pushed too far forward by the bolt, entering the chamber with the rim of the round IN FRONT OF the bolt face and extractor.
The rim of the case will then "snap" in behind the extractor (similar to the feeding of many modern bolt action rifles).

The resistance to the forward motion of the slide when the bolt rides over the front "ears" of the carrier, and the resistance of the extractor spring, sometimes stops the rim from snapping under the extractor.
When the trigger is pulled and round discharged, part of the cartridge base can rupture.

The MG2 is intriguing!
More to follow...

[MG2-Skeptic]

To those it might consern..

I have tested ejection of spent cases from my MG2. I inserted empties partly into the chamber, then let the bolt forward, pressed the rear part of the extractor to let the claw engange over the rim of the case.

By moving the bolt (slide) rearward slowly, most empties were usually just pushed forward, away from the boltface, and remained in the action.
By pushing the bolt fast rearward, some cases were thrown out to the right, clear of the gun. But some were still just pushed forward, and did NOT pivote out to the right, with the extractor as a pivoting point., as David L pointed out yesterday.
Does the extrator simply exert an insuffisient grip of the case rim?

A friend, participating in the World Cup in Germany next week, will there meet with the Matchguns people and hopefully get an opportunity to discuss this problem.

May I ask owners of calamity-free MG2s to perform an empty case ejection test:
Are you able to eject spent (empty) cases free from the gun, regardless of slide velocity? Does any of your cases remain in the action of the gun after being hit (pushed) by the ejector?

Note that empties fired in the MG2 can only be partly inserted into the chamber because of the large bulge at the rear of case caused by the extractor slot at the rear right side of the chamber, at firing.

An a small correction: Some cases that rupture during firing rupture at the rear or this extractor-groove-bulge, not from the slight bevelling of the lower part of the chamber, as I errennously claimed earlier.

[Ted Bell]

May I ask owners of calamity-free MG2s to perform an empty case ejection test:
Are you able to eject spent (empty) cases free from the gun, regardless of slide velocity? Does any of your cases remain in the action of the gun after being hit (pushed) by the ejector?

I'll check mine when I get home this evening and let you know what I find.

Thanks,
Ted

[David Levene]

By moving the bolt (slide) rearward slowly, most empties were usually just pushed forward, away from the boltface, and remained in the action.
By pushing the bolt fast rearward, some cases were thrown out to the right, clear of the gun. But some were still just pushed forward, and did NOT pivote out to the right, with the extractor as a pivoting point., as David L pointed out yesterday.
Does the extrator simply exert an insuffisient grip of the case rim?

I will admit that I don't know the MG2 but this does not sound like a valid test to me.

You are trying to pull the case out of the chamber by moving the bolt backwards. What actually happens is that, when fired, the case is blown backwards by the cartridge firing and that pushes the bolt rearwards.

What happens during firing is the reverse of what you are doing by trying to pull the empty case out by moving the bolt.

[MG2-Skeptic]

Well, a litle yes , and a litle no, David.
The problem assosiated with the MG2 never was the actual extraction of the fired cases. Not with my MG2, never.

The problem is what happens when the slide, with case resting firmly under extractor claw, reaches the point of its rearward travel where the thin ejector-blade (part of carrier-assy) gets in contact with the base of the case to be ejected.

To do actual laboratory tests with live firing, a very high speed camere is a must.
Our approach, racking the slide, slow and fast, with case under extr. claw, is not ment to be strictly scientific.
But it is is a procedure that could shed some light upon the problem of inproper ejection.

Yes, I think that is simple and worthwhile.

BTW, the "slide" of my MG2 started its travel to the tech staff of Matchguns for a diagnosis this morning.

I will know the answers in about two weeks.

[Mike T.]

MG2-Skeptic:
I filled a magazine with dummy rounds (commercial items, made from solid aluminum) and cycled the action very slowly by hand.
In every instance, the extracted round flipped out of the gun when the base of the (dummy) round contacted the ejector.
In every instance, the first contact of the returning slide against the base of the new round in the carrier occurred with the rim of the round below the ejector claw. As the slide continued forward, it pushed the new round up the slope of the carrier and into the chamber. At the same time, the rim of the round slid up the face of the recess in the slide, behind the extractor claw. In some 20 test cycles, the rim of the round was always behind the extractor, never in front.
For reference, my MG2 has serial number (MAT No.) 11xx.
It does appear that the mechanical "timing" of your MG2 might be at fault. I do wonder if sending off the slide alone to Match Guns is sufficient, since the critical interacting elements (Carrier, BIL, and ejector) are in the frame and the slide cover?
Please keep us informed as to the results.
Mike T.

[MG2-Skeptic]

Thanks for your test and information, Mike. Your MG2 feeds and ejects as it is intended to!
...The base of the (dummy) cartridge was pushed into the chamber, and slid under the extractor slaw EVERY time...Simply lovely to hear that!

When I let the slide move forward SLOWLY, feeding a live round, the round often sticks against the lover chamber entrance, and the rim of the round slips up under the extractor claw with very much resistance. The round gets often somewhat deformed in this process: bullet skew in case mouth, and a semisircular dent (left by chamber mouth) 1/3 to halfway down the cartridge case.

When I let the slide slam home rapidly, this happens only occasionally with the new carrier. With the old carrier, though, the feeding round got stuck more often.

How come some MG2s apparentlly behave well, while other specimens behave very nasty?

[David Levene]

How come some MG2s apparentlly behave well, while other specimens behave very nasty?

Isn't this one of the more comon complaints about Cesare's guns: brilliant innovative design but difficult to build with consistent quality.

[MG2-Skeptic]

Hello, fellow MG2-owners out there.

Owners of MG2s, who are experiencing problems: May I ask you to perform an ejection test with dummy cartridges, like Mike, or with emties?

There are two critical topics:
#1 Is the ejection at end of slide travel positive, regardless of slide speed?
In outher words: is the case pivoting out when the slide is moved slowly to the rear?

#2 During live firing: does any feeding cartridge stick, squezed betweeen lover chamber entrance and boltface? And rim of round stuck partly under the extractor claw? Stuck so hard that no resonable force can feed the round into the chamber, the round rather gets deformed?

Thanks for your helt to clarify the nature of the persisting MG2- problems.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Skeptic-Did test using aluminum dummy round.The extractor held the D.R. securely until the last few mm of travel,when the ejector popped it out.If slide was pulled back slow enough,the shell pivited away from ejector,turned to exit port and fell out 3/4" to the right of pistol.At no time did the shell fall from the extractor and lay in the ejection port-always popped out. The second problem,you describe,happened 3/4 times in about 3k rounds,not often while in the middle of a string,but upon loading a new clip.Seems,on rare occasions,when I get too complacent with loading proceedure,I pull slide back,the extractor captures one shell and the shell under it flips up or something and when I let slide forward the jam you describe happens.When I follow this subsequence loading preceedure it is foolproof.From a closed slide-I pull slide fully back firmly and HOLD.I observe the following-the cartridge is resting on forward half of carrier,the head of cartridge is partially into chamber and the B.I.L. is resting on top of cartridge.I then release slide and it will load perfectly,every time.IF there is a potential jam possibility,you will see it before you release the slide-and it will be much easier to correct,right then and there.Hope this info helps you.Ernie

[fsmte]

Hi,
I made an experience that gave certain. I do not know will be served for all, but I think that valley the penalty to try.
I left two or three days the opened pistol, imprisoned in holds back it, pressuring the spring master. Perhaps it has lost a little of the force and the weapon stopped badly of functioning. It is that the spring seems to be hard for the ammunition soft.

Thanks,

[MG2-Skeptic]

.....It is that the spring seems to be hard for the ammunition soft.

Ha! Yes, I know that way to "weaken" a recoil spring. An alternative method may be learned from car-engine-repairs. Valve springs is prone to take a "set" after a mileage of say 100.000 miles or so.
Translated to MG2-problem-language: after cycling the slide a few million times the recoil springs may pull less hard.

BTW, "fsmte", the english language in your last post sounds inferrior to mine.
If you continue mocking my less than perfect english I will write my post in german language.....Ha! :-))

[jer]

Maybe it would be easier to cut few rounds away from spring. You could cut 1 or 2 rounds away and test effect of it. It spring is still going strong just make another cutting ;) Some self loading rimfire rifles needed that to make them work with subsonics and silencer. After that you should not fire high velocity ammunition with that spring any more.

[Mike T.]

"Pride goeth before a fall."
Well, I had been boasting about how well my MG2 was functioning. Today, on the first shot of the fourth series of the 20-second stage, the bullet insert lever (BIL) broke....again. That's the third one (and it was the "improved" design). It's becoming a bad joke: every June, just as I'm preparing for the Nationals, the BIL breaks.
Good thing I have another .22 pistol upon which to fall back :-)
Mike T.

[MG2 owner]

"Pride goeth before a fall."
Well, I had been boasting about how well my MG2 was functioning. Today, on the first shot of the fourth series of the 20-second stage, the bullet insert lever (BIL) broke....again. That's the third one (and it was the "improved" design). Good thing I have another .22 pistol upon which to fall back :-)
Mike T.

Your third BIL? I have broken 2 BILs too.
About the MG2:- HBDG? or simply: "How Bad Does it Get..."
Some 1150 euros down the drain...

Nope. I have only one .22 target auto for the time beeing. A very unreliable MG2...

[Mark Briggs]

Mike - I'm curious to know where your BIL is breaking. Is it fracturing forward of the hinge pin, where the spring ball contacts the BIL? If so I would suggest removal of the spring and stainless ball. I replaced my BIL and noticed the new part does NOT have the two holes drilled in it that were originally designed to be engaged by the spring ball to provide a detent when the BIL is in its "up" and "down" positions. I have to think that with a new BIL installed the spring and ball that were at the heart of this detent function should now be removed.

BTW - if you can't get a BIL in a hurry, e-mail me off line as I have a spare one sitting on my desk and would be glad to bail you out before the Nationals.


Cheers,
Mark.

[Mike T.]

Thanks for the offer of your spare, Mark, however Harvey Lavigne (at AirGunsOnly) said, yesterday, that he was putting one in the mail for me. I should have it in a few days (Canada Post willing).
As to the breakage, the lever is cracking right at the pivot point, on the underside of the lever.
I have been thinking about the operation of the lever. Ordinarily, it should experience very little force on it. As you know, the lever rocks back and forth on its pivot under the influence of the slide. The only force on the lever should be from the slide pushing on the depending tip of the lever - front or back (depending upon which way the slide is moving). That should be a very small force as normally there is nothing to prevent the lever from pivoting except for the drag of the detent ball. However, if a round does not chamber correctly, the advancing (rebounding) slide slams it hard and jams the round cockeyed (sometimes totally vertical) between the slide and the barrel. In this situation, the front end of the BIL is pushed up and the rear end of the BIL is hanging down (acting to prevent the round coming from the magazine from being pushed out of the gun). If the slide is manually pulled back now (as one would normally do to clear a jam), the BIL is unable to pivot because the jammed round is preventing the front end from moving down. So, the rearward-moving slide now pushes on the depending rear tang of the trapped BIL with tremendous leverage (inclined plane and long lever arm). Something has to give. The bending moment at the pivot point of the BIL must create a stress that exceeds the tensile strength of the metal. Thus, the lever breaks!
I can even see that, should the jam of the cartridge be not too severe, the front end of the BIL could move down (as the slide is pulled back) enough that the rear end of the BIL moves almost totally out of the way of the slide before the BIL is trapped and can pivot no further. If only a little bit of the rear end of the BIL is "exposed", the bending stress in the BIL might only reach the yield point before the lever stretches enough to clear the slide. That is, the BIL does not break but it has stretched out of its original configuration and can no longer function as its designer intended. The potential consequence is that the "timing" of the BIL is "off" and rounds no longer feed reliably. I wonder if this is why a number of MG2 users have feeding difficulties even when there is no apparent fracture in the BIL?
From now on, with any feeding jam in my MG2, I will not pull the slide back in an attempt to clear the jammed round. Instead, I will remove the slide cover. This is much more time-consuming, but if it saves the BIL, it is worth it.
The question then arises: In a match, will the range official accept this procedure or will he/she insist the slide be pulled back?
Mike T.

[David Levene]

From now on, with any feeding jam in my MG2, I will not pull the slide back in an attempt to clear the jammed round. Instead, I will remove the slide cover. This is much more time-consuming, but if it saves the BIL, it is worth it.
The question then arises: In a match, will the range official accept this procedure or will he/she insist the slide be pulled back?
Mike T.

I think you're on a difficult one there Mike.

If there is no obvious reason for the malfunction, when the Range Officer pulls the trigger once and it doesn't go bang then 8.8.4.4.2 comes into play:-
"If the pistol does not discharge, the Range Officer must complete the examination of the pistol to determine the cause of the malfunction and to decide whether or not the malfunction is allowable."

The first thing I would want to know is whether there is a round in the chamber. I'm afraid that, so far as I'm concerned, that involves opening the slide. It does not involve stripping the gun. You cannot expect the RO to start stripping a potentially loaded gun.

Obviously if the slide is jammed shut then an allowable will be given and the assistance of the shooter will be sought to strip the gun. Not knowing the gun however, I understand that the slide can still be opened.

It's a difficult case. If, without exerting undue force, the slide cannot be opened without breaking the gun then I would question whether it is suitable.

You are not forced to claim a malfunction but, if you do, you must expect common sense procedures to be followed.

[Mark Briggs]

David - as always your points are well thought out. In this instance described by Mike the chamber is very easily visually inspected and can be found to be empty. The round that was to have gone into the chamber in a horizontal fashion is instead jammed almost vertically in front of the chamber. I suspect that an official seeing this would be able to call it as an allowable malfunction without too much trouble. The only real question is whether or not they would allow disassembly (4 screws) with this round still in the gun. If I were in this position I would do the disassembly right at the firing point as it only takes about 30 seconds, and as Mike points out, could save much more permanent damage being done to the pistol.

Mike - I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis. Fortunately this kind of jam is one which I've encountered very infrequently, but agree that removal of the slide cover would likely be a very good dose of preventative medicine should it happen again.