Matchguns MG-2

[jer]

Is there way to know if MG-2 is new modified model? There might be old guns in importer so it would be nice to be certain one your getting is "good one". Maybe serial or something?

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Jer-Mine is six months old and is completely modified, as far as I know.My s/n is 15xx so any newer one should be that or higher.Regards Ernie

[dnovo]

"And, btw, forget about that electronic Pardini, that trigger has never, doesn't and most probably will never work right..."

Really? The ones on my GPE Schumann and on my newest SP have been flawless. Indeed, my Pardinis have all been outstanding guns, and I own several including the K-22 which seems to get bad-rapped not by those of us who shot one, but by those who 'hear' that Pardinis have issues. Mine have not, and the support I got from the late Don Nygord and now from Larry has been top notch.

But the latter point should not be overlooked as to the main thread, if you have an issue with a Match Gun here in the US, and assuming you can get one since I am only aware of one dealer who says he can get some, but has none on hand and has no date for delivery, where do you go for service? Back 'home' goes the gun? And what do you shot in the meantime? No, I would stick with Morini, Pardini, Walther (and Hammerli, assuming Walther will produce and support them now that they own the name and assets) or Feinwerkbau. You can get parts and service on all of these in the US. Dave

[Gort]

I have an early Match Guns MG2, serial #10xx.
Some obsevations:
1. The trigger is fantastic
2. Ergonomics are very,very good
3. Mine has a tight chamber and will not feed all ammuniton brands
4. It functions SK pistol and Federal 711very well
5. Stay away from ammunition with heavy waxy lubes
6. If you have a failure to fire Do Not rack the slide without removing the magazine first and clearing the round staged for the carrier. This will prevent the double feed jam that is so difficult to clear.
7. The bullet insert lever has been problematic, and a newer one is available
8. My BIL failed @ apprx. 3000 rounds.
9. I E-mailed Match Guns and they sent me the new BIL free of charge in less than a week
10. The MG2 is not your fathers pistol, it is a fine instrament and worth learning it's funtional nuances.
Gort

[Matvei]

To Bob Riegl

I want to point out that Cesare Morini has had nothing to do with CM22, CM162, CM82E, but his name. The Cesare left Morini Competition Arms in Bedano Switzerland in late 1980's or early 1990's and went to Lugano where he worked for a while with SAM. There he designed SAM K11 airpistol, and evidently something else before leaving for Parma, Italy to establish his present company. MG-1 is actually the same gun as SAM K14, or very close to it. This is not intented to speak for CM22 etc., but just keep in mind that MGs and Morinis actually are different brands. Also, you may put SAM free pistol (formely Hämmerli FP10) and MG-5 side by side, and you are surprised for their similarity.

[Mark Briggs]

MG-2 Sceptic - the other pins in the gun drift from the right side to the left side. Try this on the cradle pin.

Also - your comment to Dgege about getting through 60 shots without a problem was of a pretty nasty tone, a tone which I find inappropriate on this forum. We're here to help each other, not laugh at somebody who may be experiencing difficulties.

There are those of us who go many hundreds of shots without any form of malfunction. I think about cleaning my MG-2 after perhaps 500-1000 shots, and then it's just a quick removal of dirt with a Q-tip, and re-application of lubricating oil to the moving parts. For this purpose the VFG Lupus oil seems to do a very good job. This is literally all I do to my MG-2 to keep it functioning well. And it literally goes hundreds of rounds without malfunction. And mine eats whatever kind of ammo I throw at it, from cheap junk to Tenex, and everything in between. One of the most interesting tests I've done was to have an assortment of 6 or 7 different brands of ammunition on the shooting bench, and randomly pick a cartridge from each box to load the magazine (that's 5 different brands in one magazine). The MG-2 functioned perfectly. My Pardini, on the other hand, failed this test 100% of the time.

JER - two methods of determining if the pistol in your hand has "newer" parts or not...
1) Bullet insert lever - if it is polished and shiny, it's likely an old-style BIL. Also, if you move it manually with your finger and you feel it stop in two distinct detents, then it's definitely the old-style BIL. The old one has two holes drilled in it which engage a spring ball, resulting in the two distinct detents. The new BIL doesn't have these holes, and has a dull grey finish.

2) Buffer - if you can see a rubber recoil buffer in the frame, just forward of the chamber (where the slide would hit it at the full rearward extent of its motion) then you've got the new configuration. My current MG-2 doesn't have this buffer (sn 11xx). I don't know at what s/n they started installing the buffer.

[jer]

Here in Finland MG-2 Rapid Fire costs 400 euros more than regular MG-2. Is that Rapid Fire version worth the price? Changes are lighter slide, rubber buffer and some kind of slide forward move suspension.

[Mark Briggs]

JER - I've never seen the RF version. A team-mate who posts here, R.M. has had one in his hands and has decided the RF version is the gun he wants to buy. The RF version has multiple muzzle weights available for it, which are NOT compatible with the standard MG-2 pistol. Also, my local dealer has confirmed that an electronic trigger version is going to be available in a few weeks through Gehmann. Again, I haven't seen this so don't know if it will be good, bad or ?

Also, if you buy the standard MG-2 you can purchase an upgrade kit to convert it to the RF version. Last year at the Milan W.C. Matchguns was selling these kits for something like 400 euros if I remember correctly.

[Richard H]

I sympathize with people who lay out large amounts of cash for a fine target pistol and it has many problems.One should not purchase the first model of ANYTHING-whether an auto,appliance or a target pistol.If,after you have researched the product,you still purchase the pistol-as I have done,there are a few other options remaining.Attempt a dialog with the dealer,factory(manufacture),pistolsmith or as a last resort-sell the pistol with an explaination of possible problems.My pistol has more than 4k shots through it.It has had an occasional jam-but NONE that required a disassembly of pistol.Carefully cleaning pistol and choosing reliable ammo goes a long way in reliability.The MG-2 is an over designed,over engineered pistol-no doubt about it.The worst thing about Match Guns company is there lack of communications with their customers.Cesare and the gang really don't offer very much help in answering technical questions and verbal support of their products.This is a widespread problem with this product.FWB,Hammerli,Pardini and Walther are all much better in this area.The MG-2 has many good qualities,and I am sure that the vast majority of these pistols function perfectly fine.However,if you are not satisfied with your pistol,why keep it?Ernie

Well Ernie if everyone had that attitude there wouldn't be a second model of anything would there. You should actually thank the people who are early adopters of new technology because with out them companies would never make anyhting new.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Richard-That's a good point-never thought of it that way :-) Ernie

[MG-2 Sceptic]

MG-2 Sceptic - the other pins in the gun drift from the right side to the left side. Try this on the cradle pin.

Also - your comment to Dgege about getting through 60 shots without a problem was of a pretty nasty tone, a tone which I find inappropriate on this forum.

You are right about the pin, from right to left. It looked that way in the exploded wiev in the owners manual, I realized.

My comment was ment to be nasty to our stubborn MG2s, not to those poor fellow owners of the MG2s, by the way! (I ask for excuse for any misunderstanding that I apparently have caused at that point).

I changed the "cradle" and BIL yesterday, and went to the outdoor range. Ambient temperature about 22 degrees C.

I tried tree different brands of ammo, and "managed" 135 rounds.
Tha gun allowed me to fire only one 3 shot string, but some two-shot "strings". About half of the shots were single-shot "strings", because of jams!
Most jams was caused by inproper ejection of empties, which "stovepiped" and double-jammed with the next round in the cradle. One case ruptured (small hole in case near rim, where chamber is bevelled) and blew much gas into the action.

The gun prefered the standard velocity(+) CCI "target" ammmo. Milder Eley target ammo ejected less well.

The depth of the cartridge-tray of the new cradle appeared to be about 1 mm deeper in front. No other defference noticeable to me.
After replacing cradle and Bil i noticed increased slide-resistance at to points of the slide travel: first when the two spring loaded ball were pressed out of recesses (hole) in frame (rearward travel of slide), second when balls were reseated in recesses (forward travel.

Lubing, and cycling the slide several hundred times did not smooth the slidetravel noticeably.
(And, yes, I am positively sure all parts were reassemblied correctly, even that miniature spring and 2mm ball (errously noted as 4mm in the parts list) of the ejector!)

I will try some Federal high vel ammo, cause I think the reason for ejection failure is insufficient slide travel, or slide moving to slowly at its rearmost part of recoil travel.
Another sugggestion is to have material removed from the bolt, in steps, slowly approaching the weight of the MG2-rapid-fire bolt, which is some 20 grams lighter.
I´ll keep you posted...

Thank you, guys out there, for your interest and support.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Skeptic-This is just an idea,and perhaps you have already tried it.On the presumption that the recoil spring might be too strong,and IF you have an extra spring,maybe cutting off one COIL at a time to see if it helps functioning.In the past,this has worked for some of my pistols.Hope this idea helps.Ernie

[Ted Bell]

Skeptic-

I mean this as an honest suggestion- I think you should ask MatchGuns to replace your pistol for you. For whatever reason, it sounds like you got a lemon that just can't be brought back to life. Maybe there's an underlying problem with your frame that is throwing everything else out of whack- I don't know. In either case, I think MatchGuns should make good on their product. I've been extremely pleased with my MG-2 and haven't had the slightest problem with it (I am approaching 10,000 rounds with it). I wish you could have the experience that I've had with it, because it really is a fine pistol. Hopefully MatchGuns will do what's right.

Good luck,
Ted

[F. Paul in Denver]

Skeptic-

Hopefully MatchGuns will do what's right.

Good luck,
Ted

And please let us know if they DONT do what's right. Selling a product that doesnt function properly is forgivable - failing to rectify the situation is not.

F. Paul in Denver

[Mike T.]

MG2 Sceptic
A number of we MG2 owners are dismayed at the problem you are having and want to help as best we can. I don't know all the things you have looked at or tried and I don't know your mechanical expertise, so please forgive me if I mention things that are obvious to you or things that you have already checked out.
This is a mass-produced gun, relatively speaking, so I expect that your recoil springs and slide are the same as on a hundred or more other MG2 pistols that are working successfully. Therefore, I would not expect them to be the cause of your feeding problem (assuming, of course, that your recoil springs are not visibly damaged). Before you start trimming recoil springs or removing material from the slide, perhaps we could review the operation of the slide to see if yours conforms to what we owners of operating guns see on our pistols.
My gun is cycling reliably (after initial problems which have been rectified), so let's use it as an example. Other owners can then chime in with their observations.
Looking at the left hand side of the gun, barrel pointing left, grip towards you, hammer down (not cocked), gun unloaded:
As I start to push the slide slowly to the right (rearward, simulating recoil), there is a relatively smooth but increasing resistance as the hammer is being pushed into its uppermost position by the slide. At the point where the rearmost edge of the slide is just below the BIL pivot pin, the resistance to movement increases markedly. Another couple of millimeters rearward movement of the slide and I hear a light click sound as the secondary release lever latches with the hammer. If, at this point, you let the slide forward, the hammer would remain cocked but the BIL would not have completed its cycle, so continue to push the slide rearward. Another three or four millimeters movement and the rearmost edge of the slide begins to contact the rearmost, depending, tang of the BIL. Resistance to further movement increases slightly at this point as the front, bulbous, end of the BIL begins to pivot downward. After about five millimeters more of slide movement, the front of the Carrier snaps upward. (In the loaded pistol, the Carrier brings up the next round for insertion into the chamber. The simultaneous movement of the BIL and the Carrier traps the new round, preventing it from bouncing out of position and jamming as the slide returns to battery.) However, the slide has not completed its full travel. Another three to five millimeters of rearward movement brings the end of the slide up against the slide cover (the depending leg portion, through which the two long attachment screws pass).
As the slide returns to battery, the BIL and the Carrier remain in their "trapping" relationship until the slide has moved forward about 15 to 17 millimeters from its stop position against the slide cover. At this point the slide begins to push the front end of the BIL, pivoting it up into the slide cover. A few more millimeters forward movement and the slide pushes on the front end of the Carrier, pivoting it down to receive the next round from the magazine.
Now if you have already checked this, I apologize for bringing it up, but I want to be sure that your slide is moving through its full stroke and that there is no excessive change in force required to move it rearward in those last ten millimeters before it hits the slide cover.
One of the problems I corrected in my MG2 (after replacing the BIL) was that one end of the Carrier pivot pin was sticking out of the frame too far and rubbing heavily against the slide, slowing it down markedly near the end of its rearward travel.
Please let me know if the foregoing is of any help to you.
Regards,
Mike T.

[MG-2 Sceptic]

Thanks, Mike T. for your in depth survey. I had an outing with the MG2 again this morning, but do not have the gun at my side now. I will make my measurements of resistance/bolt-travel, and compare.

There is a marked increase in resistance as the two springloaded steel balls at both sides of the cradle are pushet out of indexing position. (These steel balls are not visible with cradle in gun, check the exploded drawing).


I tried more ammo types today. Here are the results: Eley Target (pistol) (yellow box. current prod.) Disencouraging, 50% jams. Softest ammo tested.
One round fired when protruding some 4 mm (1/6 inch) from chamber. Part of case blew off!. (My chamber and breach surfaces were kept clean!)

Federal Hig Velocity (but moderately so), blue/red box, ca 1995: 1 jam in 50 rounds.

Lapua Rifle Championship, ca 1980, (red box, 42 gns heay bullet, 345 m/s nominal rifle velocity). More powerful that the Eley P.T., only slightly less so than the Federal round. Only 1 one jam in 50 rounds.
Differing bullet profile (no "shoulder") apparently caused no trouble.

Lapua Match Grade, ca 1980. (Yellow box, intermediate power, say standard ammo velocity+). Softer than the previous round. 2 jams in 25 rounds.

Conclusion: My gun demands ammo more powerful that normal target og mid power ammo to operate properly.
But this gun is a target gun, and it should digest target-powerded ammo without problems.

Several other MG2s are suffering from this problem. One owner claimed his gun worked ok. At the range, however, he experiences occasional jams....

The newer MG2s arrive with a 6 mm (1/4 inch) thick rubber buffer. The frame is milled at the factory to alow room for this buffer. This buffer rides around tha barrel and recoil-spring rods.

Was the MG2 designed with recoil and hammer springs (and cradle plungers prings) tuned for high vel ammo? The first few hundred guns (of which I have one, a 14xx serial number) had no buffer incorporated to protect bolt-assembly ("slide") and frame from battering, which could cause some waranty trouble.

Was the MG2 simply designed to accept high vel ammo without risking damage to the gun?
And reliability when fed taget powered ammo was sacrifized for this reason?

But then all MG2s shoul suffer from this plaque. Reportedly, some older MG2s have escaped the desease. Strange.

Return the gun to Italy? That is not easy. Sertificates, customs, ..etc.
The importer is trying to help, though.

We are planning to have the framed milled for the rubber buffer, and then lighten the slide.
(The weight of the "Rapid Fire" "slide" is reported to be some 17 grams lighter than the standard "slide")
The current MG2s have the heay slide, but recoil buffer. Recoild springs appear to have same strenght as the older ones.

Thanks to Ernie Rodriguez and Ted Bell too.

[MG2-Skeptic]

.....Another three to five millimeters of rearward movement brings the end of the slide up against the slide cover (the depending leg portion, through which the two long attachment screws pass).

My gun operates like yours, no deviation detected. Except for the point above:
My slide stops against the "slab" of the frame. This "slab" has cat.... written at the left side. This "slab" is massive, and the rubber buffer of the newer models rides aginst the front of this "slab".
My slide stops some 1,5 mm short of tuching the "rear pending leg of the bolt cover" (aka "topstrap"). I expect this is the same with your gun, and is as it is supposed to be.

More fieldtesting done. New guestions arose:

Got jams firing federal high speed ammo. Recoil was sharp firing this ammo, and "slide" cycled all the way to the rear. But anyhow, some fired cases stovepiped.

Were the spent cases simply not pushed fully free from the claw of the extractor?

I an early post covering MG2-problems a poster commented his extractor was very tight and sharp-cornered. After some careful grinding with emery cloth, feeding/ejection improved, he wrote.

The extractor of the (my) MG2 has a very strong spring, stronger than many (most?) other .22 autos, it appears to me. Do you agree on this?

When my MG2 was new, I noticed during the first cleaning that a piece of brass was stuck under the extractor claw. Had the sharp edges of the extractor and the very strong extractor spring, simply tore brass of the rim of a spent case? I think so.

I will now perform tests inserting empties of differing brands in chamber, and move slide to simulate recoil travel, to investigate the extractor issue further.

Rgdz,
MG2-gunner

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Sceptic-Is the cutout recess,on breech face were firing pin protrudes,clean.I use a dental pick,with a "C" shape on end,and make sure the groove,that the shell sits in is clean in corners.This way,when shell is picked up by slide,the shell is flush against face and rim is under extractor.Another thing I noticed with my MG-2,keep away from brands with excessive lubricant on the shells-they only make the chamber dirty.Try to use brands of ammo that display minimum "extractor" bulge at bottom of shell-they are less likely to rupture at the base of cartridge.Another thing I notice,when you fire with a firm grip-most of the recoil momentum is ulilized in the slide functioning,as opposed to a weak wrist.Hope some of this helps you. Ernie

[Gwhite]

The extractor could be your problem. You typically want a sharp edge on the hook part that does the pulling so that it won't pop off the rim. However, depending on where it catches the rim, you typically don't want any burrs or sharp corners that could dig in & hang up. I'm not that familiar with the MG, but if the extractor motion is straight in & out towards the center of the cartridge (some are offset a bit), you could try lightly stoning the corners and removing any visible burrs. Just remember to keep the nose sharp. If your pistol is clean and it has a good extractor spring, it may not be an issue. I have a Pardini free pistol where the extractor doesn't have enough grab to reliably extract rounds if the chamber gets dirty. It's no big deal to pop them out in slow fire, but you can't shoot sustained with a gun that doesn't have the right combination of a good spring & a sharp hook. It sounds like the spring isn't a problem on these guns.

I had a High Standard that would stove pipe a lot, and it was a combination of a loose fitting extractor and the frame-mounted ejector being too low. A lot of the European guns use a tab sticking up from the magazine for the ejector, so you might take a look there as well. At least on a High Standard, if the extractor can't hold a loaded round against the bolt face securely enough that it won't fall off in any orientation, it's too loose.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[Fred]

I have a Pardini free pistol where the extractor doesn't have enough grab to reliably extract rounds if the chamber gets dirty. It's no big deal to pop them out in slow fire, but you can't shoot sustained with a gun that doesn't have the right combination of a good spring & a sharp hook.

From everything I've heard and seen, contrary to the implication above, the extractor does not extract the empty shell in a well regulated rimfire semi-auto. My FAS 607, for example, functions better without any extractor installed at all.

if the extractor can't hold a loaded round against the bolt face securely enough that it won't fall off in any orientation, it's too loose.

This is the true function of the extractor in a rimfire semi-auto: to hold the empty shell against the bolt face so that it contacts the ejector at the correct orientation. (Apparently my FAS doesn't understand this.)


HTH.
FredB