So a couple of nights ago I went and shot air pistol. I "practiced" a match. But I kept a backer target behind and after about 40 shots I could see my overall group. I'm holding the 8-ring, I didn't have any "oh shits" out into the white, and maybe 3-4 mental errors into the 7 ring where I know I should have put the gun back down. But overall I was pleased, it is demonstrated progress.
Then I tried another 10 shots "rapid" fire. I'd load, acquire my sight picture, and squeeze off the shot as quickly as I could. I didn't bring the target back or scope it, I just shot. Except for a massive 7 jerk, the other shots were within the 9-ring, and the 10 ring was gone. Whoa!
Obviously I'm holding too long shooting a "normal" shot. But I'm not real sure what to do about it. Comments?
John
Interesting Experiment - But What's It Mean?
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Steve Swartz
John:
A lot of others may disagree, but here's my $0.02: You are Aiming. Stop Aiming. Align, Settle, Release.
You are holding until you see an "acceptable" align + hold (aim). By the time that happens, 1) you have already passed up on a whole bunch of tens; and 2) your eyes and brain are tired and your threshold of acceptability is much lower than the first seven seconds or so of settle. So what "looks good" after 10 seconds is actually a lot crappier in reality than what "wasn't good enough" during the first 5 seconds.
Your symptoms, to me, sound an awfully lot like you are trying to shoot a ten (conscious management of align, aim, and release).
When you speed things up, you only have time to concentrate on one thing. Whatever one thing you choose (align, hold, or trigger) will be better than trying to concentrate on "everything."
OBTW, training yourself to make perfect trigger control a given (scratch one thing off the list); then realizing and accepting that there isn't a damn thing you can do about the stability of your settle on any given day, let alone match or shot (scratch another thing off the list) leaves you with really only one thing to focus on . . . two, if you still insist on consciously activating the shot release (bad idea, but hard to avoid) . . .
Steve Swartz
A lot of others may disagree, but here's my $0.02: You are Aiming. Stop Aiming. Align, Settle, Release.
You are holding until you see an "acceptable" align + hold (aim). By the time that happens, 1) you have already passed up on a whole bunch of tens; and 2) your eyes and brain are tired and your threshold of acceptability is much lower than the first seven seconds or so of settle. So what "looks good" after 10 seconds is actually a lot crappier in reality than what "wasn't good enough" during the first 5 seconds.
Your symptoms, to me, sound an awfully lot like you are trying to shoot a ten (conscious management of align, aim, and release).
When you speed things up, you only have time to concentrate on one thing. Whatever one thing you choose (align, hold, or trigger) will be better than trying to concentrate on "everything."
OBTW, training yourself to make perfect trigger control a given (scratch one thing off the list); then realizing and accepting that there isn't a damn thing you can do about the stability of your settle on any given day, let alone match or shot (scratch another thing off the list) leaves you with really only one thing to focus on . . . two, if you still insist on consciously activating the shot release (bad idea, but hard to avoid) . . .
Steve Swartz
Thanks for the insight Steve
I don't think many can disagree, I'd have to say it's like you were looking thru my eyes...
But I'm still not clear what to do about it. I can call my shots. I know when I've shot a 10. I know when I've shot an 8. I know what clock position the shot breaks at. And I know when I've really screwed things up. So you are absolutely right, I am trying to shoot the perfect 10.
But that's not really true either. I'm really trying not to shoot that really bad shot outside the 8 ring. And it's always a different gremlin that comes along to spoil the 10, squeezing the whole hand, the thumb, the pinky, the wrist, the fatigue, the eyes, the muscle spasm, ... sigh.
But one thing is very clear, the longer I hold, the more gremlins that come to play. Oh well, if it was easy....
Back to training.
John
But I'm still not clear what to do about it. I can call my shots. I know when I've shot a 10. I know when I've shot an 8. I know what clock position the shot breaks at. And I know when I've really screwed things up. So you are absolutely right, I am trying to shoot the perfect 10.
But that's not really true either. I'm really trying not to shoot that really bad shot outside the 8 ring. And it's always a different gremlin that comes along to spoil the 10, squeezing the whole hand, the thumb, the pinky, the wrist, the fatigue, the eyes, the muscle spasm, ... sigh.
But one thing is very clear, the longer I hold, the more gremlins that come to play. Oh well, if it was easy....
Back to training.
John
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Steve Swartz
John:
You are facing (IMHO) the most difficult part of shooting up to your potential: the extremely "counter-intuitive" process of >Accepting Your Hold<.
What I mean by "Accepting Your Hold" has been discussed many times by shooters much more skilled than I in many forums (see the intro to the USAMU marksmanship manual etc.); the principle that
. . . once you have aligned your sights and settled into your aiming area best results are achieved when you smoothly release the shot . . . without regard for "point of aim" in any way . . . focusing only on maintaining the best alignment possible, and not screwing up the trigger . . .
O.K., simple enough- but there is a "Huge Subtlety" that gets lost here for many (most?) shooters.
We can accept the above principle intellectually ("Yeah, yeah, heard it a thousand times . . . ") but not actually put it into practice one bit.
We can read it a thousand times in every shooting manual ever written; we can hear it from every coach and top competitor over and over in response to the inevitable "What's Your Secret?" question.
And still end up trying to conscously release the shot when the front sight is in "good position" (thereby screwing it up totally) as soon as we put the gun up against the target.
Paradox: It's actually much easier to shoot when we follow the "accept your hold" principle, but much harder to shoot that way in the first place . . .
Steve Swartz
You are facing (IMHO) the most difficult part of shooting up to your potential: the extremely "counter-intuitive" process of >Accepting Your Hold<.
What I mean by "Accepting Your Hold" has been discussed many times by shooters much more skilled than I in many forums (see the intro to the USAMU marksmanship manual etc.); the principle that
. . . once you have aligned your sights and settled into your aiming area best results are achieved when you smoothly release the shot . . . without regard for "point of aim" in any way . . . focusing only on maintaining the best alignment possible, and not screwing up the trigger . . .
O.K., simple enough- but there is a "Huge Subtlety" that gets lost here for many (most?) shooters.
We can accept the above principle intellectually ("Yeah, yeah, heard it a thousand times . . . ") but not actually put it into practice one bit.
We can read it a thousand times in every shooting manual ever written; we can hear it from every coach and top competitor over and over in response to the inevitable "What's Your Secret?" question.
And still end up trying to conscously release the shot when the front sight is in "good position" (thereby screwing it up totally) as soon as we put the gun up against the target.
Paradox: It's actually much easier to shoot when we follow the "accept your hold" principle, but much harder to shoot that way in the first place . . .
Steve Swartz
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James Hurr
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:03 am
- Location: Australia
Accept your hold
If you accept that your hold is good enough to stay within the 9.5 ring, say 2 sigmas in 9.5, then most hits will be tens, the rest nines.
You can't hit elevens so this is all you can expect.
For most people with adequate basic training the above is true.
The problems come when you try to hit elevens, snatching, relaxing/spasming the wrist etc.
Its amazing how bad a sight picture will give you a ten.
Sighting errors - defined here as misalignment of the sights - will always give you problems. Locking the wrist solves that one.
Aiming errors - defined as misalignment between sights and target (assuming no sighting errors) can be much larger than you expect.
See attached for standard pistol. Remmeber the 10 dia=50mm, each step between scoring rings is 25mm
You can't hit elevens so this is all you can expect.
For most people with adequate basic training the above is true.
The problems come when you try to hit elevens, snatching, relaxing/spasming the wrist etc.
Its amazing how bad a sight picture will give you a ten.
Sighting errors - defined here as misalignment of the sights - will always give you problems. Locking the wrist solves that one.
Aiming errors - defined as misalignment between sights and target (assuming no sighting errors) can be much larger than you expect.
See attached for standard pistol. Remmeber the 10 dia=50mm, each step between scoring rings is 25mm
- Attachments
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- Effect of Aiming Errors.doc
- (144 KiB) Downloaded 309 times
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- Effect of Sighting Errors.doc
- (150.5 KiB) Downloaded 329 times
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Accepting your hold
Solid Gold Steve!
I logged on to ask a question and you have plugged it before I managed to post it.
I have to say, although I 'knew' the principle I still have not put it into practice.
Presumably one reason for loosing alignment / hold is snatching at the trigger.
Now - what about that coaching manual?
I logged on to ask a question and you have plugged it before I managed to post it.
I have to say, although I 'knew' the principle I still have not put it into practice.
Presumably one reason for loosing alignment / hold is snatching at the trigger.
Now - what about that coaching manual?
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Guest
Dear AnonJohn:
You probably know eactly what the experiment means but have not step back to see the meaning. What did you do differently between your slwo fire and the rapid fire. It was not just your hold time.
Did you close your eyes and fire as quickly as possible? Or did you fire as soon as you had some sense that the sights were somewhat aligned and back on the target someplace.
Instinctively, did you lien the sights up?
Knowing that the next shoot was coming, did you have better follow through etc.
I know many bullseye shooters that advocate training doing nothing but sustained fire type drills. I don't completely agree, but I think the point really is that you tend to do what Steve suggests, not trying to make the shot perfect, using a less conscous approach.
I was on the edge of a conversation with one of our Olympic shooters as he described a shot process. He was telling a junior shooter the align up the sights just above the target, lower the pistol into your hold area and be ready to fire within a couple of seconds reaching your hold area. The emphasis I got was being ready to fire, not holding and studying the sight picture, target and such. ( this is also not to be confused with the hit the target whilst it is going by technique)
Again, I make these comments in support of Steve Swartz's posts, trying to provide another perspective.
You probably know eactly what the experiment means but have not step back to see the meaning. What did you do differently between your slwo fire and the rapid fire. It was not just your hold time.
Did you close your eyes and fire as quickly as possible? Or did you fire as soon as you had some sense that the sights were somewhat aligned and back on the target someplace.
Instinctively, did you lien the sights up?
Knowing that the next shoot was coming, did you have better follow through etc.
I know many bullseye shooters that advocate training doing nothing but sustained fire type drills. I don't completely agree, but I think the point really is that you tend to do what Steve suggests, not trying to make the shot perfect, using a less conscous approach.
I was on the edge of a conversation with one of our Olympic shooters as he described a shot process. He was telling a junior shooter the align up the sights just above the target, lower the pistol into your hold area and be ready to fire within a couple of seconds reaching your hold area. The emphasis I got was being ready to fire, not holding and studying the sight picture, target and such. ( this is also not to be confused with the hit the target whilst it is going by technique)
Again, I make these comments in support of Steve Swartz's posts, trying to provide another perspective.
John , your brain is both your friend and your enemy , my rapid fire scores are better or at least as good as my slow fire . Clearly your sub concious has your best interests at heart ( unless you negativeize it ) . Dont overhold or overanalyse . My results have got a lot better now that I try to get release and settling to coincide .
Chris
Chris
I agree completely with Steve. As a baby, the first thing you learn is to grab at what you want with your whole hand. The next thing you learn is to focus on what you want. As you grow you continue to re-enforce your instincts to look at what you want and grab for it. Did your baseball coach ever say "Keep your eye on the bat." When you drive a nail do you look at the hammer?
When you learn to shoot you quickly learn how to do it correctly. Just about anyone can tell you that sight alignment in more important than sight picture. Trigger release must be smooth and you cannot pick the instant the weapon will fire.
The problem is you are going against habit patterns and instincts developed over your entire life. You shoot a couple good shots and the old brain says Yes, I can do this and takes control. The instincts and habits take over and there goes a seven. The problem with shooting is that we must fight these lifelong habit patterns every time we shoot. Thats why a shot plan is important. It makes us concentrate on the important things instead of trusting our instincts.
Doug in Virginia
When you learn to shoot you quickly learn how to do it correctly. Just about anyone can tell you that sight alignment in more important than sight picture. Trigger release must be smooth and you cannot pick the instant the weapon will fire.
The problem is you are going against habit patterns and instincts developed over your entire life. You shoot a couple good shots and the old brain says Yes, I can do this and takes control. The instincts and habits take over and there goes a seven. The problem with shooting is that we must fight these lifelong habit patterns every time we shoot. Thats why a shot plan is important. It makes us concentrate on the important things instead of trusting our instincts.
Doug in Virginia