As of late my groups seem to be veering off to the right a bit. Figures, now that they're tightening up, something else had to go wrong... Anyhow, I found the cause in dry-firing against a blank wall. As the trigger breaks, the gun twitches slightly to the right. I know on the "shot wheel" it mentioned something about the thumb pressure or lack thereof. Can anyone expand on that? There was no more explanation there. In dry firing I DO have times when the front sight stays perfectly still. I just can't tell what I'm doing differently, though I'm convinced it's in the grip.
Thanks in advance for any help :)
Right twitch on trigger break....
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
-
Ed Hall
Please do not take my suggestions wrong, but I know they will fly in the face of conventional wisdom. My first suggestion is to throw your "wheel of misfortune" away and study what you do for those shots "when the front sight stays perfectly still." Most will say that you have to find all your errors and correct them. I'm not a proponent of error-correction unless it's the last resort. I am a proponent of studying how to perform in the manner you want. If you want to have a still sight, focus on how to have a still sight.
What gives you the best opportunity for a perfect shot execution? It is normally all pressures parallel with the bore and all activity consistent from shot to shot. What gives you the best grip? Again, all pressures parallel with the bore and consistent from shot to shot. What trigger operation gives the best results? Again, pressure parallel to the bore and a steady increase that is consistent from shot to shot.
Back to error-correction. There are hundreds of things you can do in error. If you try to seach for these errors you can spend a great deal of time. If the error is occasional, you may even need to make it more frequent (habitual) before you can figure it out. You ask about thumb pressure differences. If your thumb is exerting different (inconsistent) pressures then it can push your gun sideways - out of parallel with the bore. But your gun can also move sideways from wrist pressure to counter out-of-line trigger pressure. If you do find out what your error is, you will need to find a solution and then test it.
This method is the only way some can confront shooting, but I consider it an indirect (and therefore slower) approach. The direct approach is to find those activities that produce what you are searching for and explore where they take you. Focus on what works and only fall back to error-correction if you can't find things that work.
Now let me provide a scenario:
Sights are aligned and trigger is coming back, but is slightly out-of-line with the bore. In fact, let's say it is pushing the front sight slightly left. What is the natural response? Put the front sight back in place, right? But, how? It is quite common to move the front sight back with the wrist. But, this sets up a balanced pressure difference out of parallel with the bore. What happens at that tiny fraction of a second when the sear disconnects from the hammer? Loss of trigger pressure, and the wrist wins out for just an instant. What would that look like? Perhaps, a twitch to the right? Is there a better way to handle the sight misalignment? Of course, it's better if you can stay away from it, but corrective action on the fly, to work correctly, has to move all the pressures back to parallel with the bore. In other words, correct the trigger application instead of compensating elsewhere.
Working toward making all pressures parallel and consistent will cure many errors without having to identify them first. This is where I would suggest study in your training. See what grip gives you the best consistency with the pressures primarily front to back. See what trigger manipulation gives you the least disturbance to the sights. Be an observer and use the sights to purify your trigger operation. Once you find what you're searching for make them as consitent as possible and consistency down range should follow.
Study those things that produce what you want. If you have some shots that come off perfectly, latch onto them and find out why. These are where your focus should be directed.
I hope this was taken in the spirit it was provided, as a suggestion for study, and I hope I've not annoyed too many...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
What gives you the best opportunity for a perfect shot execution? It is normally all pressures parallel with the bore and all activity consistent from shot to shot. What gives you the best grip? Again, all pressures parallel with the bore and consistent from shot to shot. What trigger operation gives the best results? Again, pressure parallel to the bore and a steady increase that is consistent from shot to shot.
Back to error-correction. There are hundreds of things you can do in error. If you try to seach for these errors you can spend a great deal of time. If the error is occasional, you may even need to make it more frequent (habitual) before you can figure it out. You ask about thumb pressure differences. If your thumb is exerting different (inconsistent) pressures then it can push your gun sideways - out of parallel with the bore. But your gun can also move sideways from wrist pressure to counter out-of-line trigger pressure. If you do find out what your error is, you will need to find a solution and then test it.
This method is the only way some can confront shooting, but I consider it an indirect (and therefore slower) approach. The direct approach is to find those activities that produce what you are searching for and explore where they take you. Focus on what works and only fall back to error-correction if you can't find things that work.
Now let me provide a scenario:
Sights are aligned and trigger is coming back, but is slightly out-of-line with the bore. In fact, let's say it is pushing the front sight slightly left. What is the natural response? Put the front sight back in place, right? But, how? It is quite common to move the front sight back with the wrist. But, this sets up a balanced pressure difference out of parallel with the bore. What happens at that tiny fraction of a second when the sear disconnects from the hammer? Loss of trigger pressure, and the wrist wins out for just an instant. What would that look like? Perhaps, a twitch to the right? Is there a better way to handle the sight misalignment? Of course, it's better if you can stay away from it, but corrective action on the fly, to work correctly, has to move all the pressures back to parallel with the bore. In other words, correct the trigger application instead of compensating elsewhere.
Working toward making all pressures parallel and consistent will cure many errors without having to identify them first. This is where I would suggest study in your training. See what grip gives you the best consistency with the pressures primarily front to back. See what trigger manipulation gives you the least disturbance to the sights. Be an observer and use the sights to purify your trigger operation. Once you find what you're searching for make them as consitent as possible and consistency down range should follow.
Study those things that produce what you want. If you have some shots that come off perfectly, latch onto them and find out why. These are where your focus should be directed.
I hope this was taken in the spirit it was provided, as a suggestion for study, and I hope I've not annoyed too many...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
-
Guest
Hello MSC.
Shooting is all about doing exactly the same thing, over and over again. Consistency and to simplify your method is fundamental.
When your stance is good, take chalk or tape and mark your feetposition, then your angle and stance is perfect every time.
Take the grip and apply the finger on the trigger exactly the same way everytime. When the finger is perfect on the trigger shot after shot, take a pen and draw a line by the triggeredge on the finger. Then doublecheck before every shot so you "program" the right apply for the brain.
I have narrowed It down to just concentrate on the front sight and pull the trigger soft but firm. After every shot is fired, follow trough, and analyze, where is the shot? When you can "call" the shot you have been concentrated on the front sight.
Good luck!
Shooting is all about doing exactly the same thing, over and over again. Consistency and to simplify your method is fundamental.
When your stance is good, take chalk or tape and mark your feetposition, then your angle and stance is perfect every time.
Take the grip and apply the finger on the trigger exactly the same way everytime. When the finger is perfect on the trigger shot after shot, take a pen and draw a line by the triggeredge on the finger. Then doublecheck before every shot so you "program" the right apply for the brain.
I have narrowed It down to just concentrate on the front sight and pull the trigger soft but firm. After every shot is fired, follow trough, and analyze, where is the shot? When you can "call" the shot you have been concentrated on the front sight.
Good luck!
wright high shoots
MSC:
I am not as technical as other respectable members of this forum, their answers are those that enrich the conversations.
I will respond you what has worked for my.
the check of the hand was my problem, it was very slack, I have modified the grip in that part and the problem has not disappeared, but it has improved enough.
Nano
I am not as technical as other respectable members of this forum, their answers are those that enrich the conversations.
I will respond you what has worked for my.
the check of the hand was my problem, it was very slack, I have modified the grip in that part and the problem has not disappeared, but it has improved enough.
Nano
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I am sorry but I consider this to be very bad advice.Anonymous wrote:When your stance is good, take chalk or tape and mark your feetposition, then your angle and stance is perfect every time.
Your stance and shooting angle can change from day to day. It can also (and probably will) change during the course of a match as muscle fatigue and tension set in. Check your stance frequently, and certainly whenever you return to the shooting position after a break, and don't be afraid to move the position of your feet.
-
Lanning R. Hochhauser
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:45 am
- Location: Illinois
Shooting Stance subject to change
David,
I couldn't agree more.
I tried the footprints on the line thing to start my stance for the same place each time. It didn't work.
All you have to do is close your eyes and let your arm come up naturally with no pressure from either side. You will see that at any given point in a match or practice where you end up pointing changes.
I couldn't agree more.
I tried the footprints on the line thing to start my stance for the same place each time. It didn't work.
All you have to do is close your eyes and let your arm come up naturally with no pressure from either side. You will see that at any given point in a match or practice where you end up pointing changes.
My first advice is the read Ed Hall's post. After that, re-read it. I read almost everything he posts at least twice.
I am slightly less adament than he is about looking for the positive things that make a good shot, rather than the negative things that mess up a shot, but then I am also less acomplished in this sport, so take my advice with some skeptisism. I do firmly believe that focussing on the 1-2 bad shots rather than the 8-9 good shots is usually counterproductive, and it is ALWAYS counterproductive during a match.
When I see a sideways jump, I check my thumb and my trigger finger position.
Some shooters stick their thumbs up in the air. Those that don't probably have it relaxed and not pressing against the side of the gun. It is normal to use the thumb when gripping something tightly, but it usually does not help pistol shooting. Try it with the thumb relaxed and with it up in the air. Use what works best.
Sometimes a sideways jump is the result of trigger finger position. If the front sight jumps to the right, try moving the trigger finger to the left on the trigger blade. Move the trigger finger around until you find what works best.
I use a very firm wrist and grip. When I have a loose grip and limp wrist, the gun can move all over the place for no obvious reason. When I lock the wrist and tighten the grip, things settle down. The grip is between the 2nd and 3rd segments of the middle 2 fingers on the front strap and the heel of the hand on the backstrap. Some people use the pinky, some don't. Nothing else should be exerting much pressure on the pistol. At least, that's what works for me.
Best of luck,
Steve T
I am slightly less adament than he is about looking for the positive things that make a good shot, rather than the negative things that mess up a shot, but then I am also less acomplished in this sport, so take my advice with some skeptisism. I do firmly believe that focussing on the 1-2 bad shots rather than the 8-9 good shots is usually counterproductive, and it is ALWAYS counterproductive during a match.
When I see a sideways jump, I check my thumb and my trigger finger position.
Some shooters stick their thumbs up in the air. Those that don't probably have it relaxed and not pressing against the side of the gun. It is normal to use the thumb when gripping something tightly, but it usually does not help pistol shooting. Try it with the thumb relaxed and with it up in the air. Use what works best.
Sometimes a sideways jump is the result of trigger finger position. If the front sight jumps to the right, try moving the trigger finger to the left on the trigger blade. Move the trigger finger around until you find what works best.
I use a very firm wrist and grip. When I have a loose grip and limp wrist, the gun can move all over the place for no obvious reason. When I lock the wrist and tighten the grip, things settle down. The grip is between the 2nd and 3rd segments of the middle 2 fingers on the front strap and the heel of the hand on the backstrap. Some people use the pinky, some don't. Nothing else should be exerting much pressure on the pistol. At least, that's what works for me.
Best of luck,
Steve T
-
Guest
Nothing is black or white. Do you have statistics that this method fails 100/100 times? If a person have big troubles with finding the same stance and angle during a training session, It could be a good method, and have worked out good for many beginners that I know. Of course there are variations during a match or from day to day (we are all individuals). Now I train often and I find a good stance and angle just by looking at my feet and feeling that Its right.David Levene wrote:I am sorry but I consider this to be very bad advice.Anonymous wrote:When your stance is good, take chalk or tape and mark your feetposition, then your angle and stance is perfect every time.
Your stance and shooting angle can change from day to day. It can also (and probably will) change during the course of a match as muscle fatigue and tension set in. Check your stance frequently, and certainly whenever you return to the shooting position after a break, and don't be afraid to move the position of your feet.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
It really isn't difficult. As pistol shooters we want to raise our arm the same way every time. We have to do it over 60 times during an air pistl match. Just threw in a few more with your eyes shut to check that you are coming into the correct aiming area naturally.Anonymous wrote:If a person have big troubles with finding the same stance and angle during a training session, It could be a good method, and have worked out good for many beginners that I know.
Avoid lining up your feet in relation to the shooting bench or line. I am sure we have all seen people who fall into this bad habit and then find themselves shooting with their nose almost touching the screen when shooting from points 4 or 5 on an ISSF 25m range.
The only line you should line up to is the one between where you are standing and the target. The easiest way of doing that is jst by taking what feels like a comfortable stance and carrying out your usual raise, but with your eyes shut.
Guest, your original post said "When your stance is good, take chalk or tape and mark your feetposition, then your angle and stance is perfect every time". That is simply untrue. Using your method you would admittedly have the same angle every time. Even you have agreed that "Of course there are variations during a match or from day to day" so must consequently agree that it will not be perfect every time.
Why teach people to be wrong when it is so easy to teach them to be right.
-
Guest
David: my intention was not to teach people the wrong way!
I just mentioned one method that some people have used with good results. My trainer, who has very extensive experience both at competing and coaching at high international level, told me and others that this was one method among others. It is fortunate that we have "all-knowing coaches" like you David ;-) My coach never says this is 100% right/wrong, this is good/bad, but he maybe is a bad coach?
Everone is free to listen and try methods and then choose their own way.
I have no trouble with finding the right position and angle for me. I have worked out a routine for every aspect of the technique, that are simple and works for me. Even though you might have several comments about that too...;-) I do my routine the same way as always and usually start with a bullseye ten.
No hard feelings, good luck to you all, and choose your favorite method that works out the best for you.
I just mentioned one method that some people have used with good results. My trainer, who has very extensive experience both at competing and coaching at high international level, told me and others that this was one method among others. It is fortunate that we have "all-knowing coaches" like you David ;-) My coach never says this is 100% right/wrong, this is good/bad, but he maybe is a bad coach?
Everone is free to listen and try methods and then choose their own way.
I have no trouble with finding the right position and angle for me. I have worked out a routine for every aspect of the technique, that are simple and works for me. Even though you might have several comments about that too...;-) I do my routine the same way as always and usually start with a bullseye ten.
No hard feelings, good luck to you all, and choose your favorite method that works out the best for you.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Out of interest, and believe me that I am not trying to pick an arguement on this, have you tried shooting a full match as 60 totally separate shots. By that I mean prepare yourself and fire the shot, open the gun and put it down, step away from the bench and then go through your first shot routine again.Anonymous wrote:I do my routine the same way as always and usually start with a bullseye ten.
I know several shooters who put the gun down between shots but none that I can think of who routinely break their stance.
-
Guest
No I have not tried to shoot a match in the way you describe, I see no point for routinely breaking of my stance between every shot either. I had never said that either. If I need a little break I will take a break.David Levene wrote:I know several shooters who put the gun down between shots but none that I can think of who routinely break their stance.
Maybe you could describe your technique and how you shoot a match. I am interested and open to new ideas. I will not counter with negative comments like: that ....is bad. I believe that shooters should help each other.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
OK, I just wondered if you had tried it. It would have been interesting to see how repeatable your "usually start with a bullseye ten" was.Anonymous wrote:No I have not tried to shoot a match in the way you describe, I see no point for routinely breaking of my stance between every shot either. I had never said that either. If I need a little break I will take a break.
Oh trust me, I am the first to admit that my match technique is bad. Nowadays it usually starts with "did I fill the cylinders before putting the gun away the last time I picked it up 4 weeks ago".Anonymous wrote:Maybe you could describe your technique and how you shoot a match. I am interested and open to new ideas. I will not counter with negative comments like: that ....is bad. I believe that shooters should help each other.
To set the record straight, the 2 comments that seemed to upset you were "I consider this to be very bad advice" in relation to the advice to use tape or chalk to mark your feet position and "That is simply untrue" in relation to your claim that such marking would give you a perfect angle and stance every time.
Looking at the second comment first, by your own admission "there are variations during a match or from day to day". It is obvious therefore that fixing the feet position cannot give you a perfect angle and stance every time. Like you I am also open to new ideas. Perhaps you can point out where my logic is wrong.
Until someone can convince me that my logic is wrong and that fixing the feet position can give the perfect angle and stance every time I will continue to consider it bad advice.
-
Guest
David: I am not upset at all, just tired of endless discussions about details and when people are marking words in some atempt to always have the right answers. Seldom are these "experts" exactly former olympic champions...
I am not an expert in shooting and coaching, rather called a beginner with ambitions to become a champion. I think that the main issue is to train often with high quality and not focus on problems and not pay to big attention on single details.
There is always more than one way to deal with a problem. If you cant have the same stance in a whole match, maybe the stance is not optimal for you? Variations of stance and other things during a important match, does not seem optimal to me. My idea is that the preparations are not well done in a case like that. Maybe your stamina is low because you have trained to short traningssessions and not trained hard enough to build up fitness shape? Maybe you have not warmed up properly and not streched out the muscles after training, to gain more flexibility?
I am not an expert in shooting and coaching, rather called a beginner with ambitions to become a champion. I think that the main issue is to train often with high quality and not focus on problems and not pay to big attention on single details.
There is always more than one way to deal with a problem. If you cant have the same stance in a whole match, maybe the stance is not optimal for you? Variations of stance and other things during a important match, does not seem optimal to me. My idea is that the preparations are not well done in a case like that. Maybe your stamina is low because you have trained to short traningssessions and not trained hard enough to build up fitness shape? Maybe you have not warmed up properly and not streched out the muscles after training, to gain more flexibility?
Guest (whoever you might be) -
A common mistake of beginners is to think that the only good advice comes from champions. That is not true. Many coaches produce athletes that surpass them. This group has and does host a number of accomplished athletes, coaches, and students of the sport... and they don't always agree. Shooting is simple in principle, but not in execution. Shooters are not genetic clones and techniques that work for one aren't certain for another, hence the range of opinion you see, as well as the ongoing debate over details.
I don't fully agree with David on stance, but I don't fully share your interpretation either. Stance is a composite of most of the muscle, joint, and nervous systems of the body. Training those systems and building neural maps in the brain for their proper configuration is crucial. Tape on the floor, especially for training, can assist that. And it can be useful in a match to provide reference marks. Don Nygord (world champion and national record holder, if that's important to you) was an advocate of that method. Dr. Yur'yev (author of the Russian book 'Competitive Shooting') shows plots of the variations in foot position of leading shooters on repeated assumptions of position, which would imply that even the best can't act like robots. My personal take is that both should be part of the shooters program; reference marks to help build and maintain consistency and flexibility in matches to allow for the unforeseen.
Try not to take it personal when someone like David disagrees, even strongly disagrees. File it away if it doesn't ring true. You may find that it makes more sense when you have more experience. His comment about shooting a match as 60 individual shots is something you may someday realize is a really good way to handle the psychological stress of matches you think are important.
Larry
A common mistake of beginners is to think that the only good advice comes from champions. That is not true. Many coaches produce athletes that surpass them. This group has and does host a number of accomplished athletes, coaches, and students of the sport... and they don't always agree. Shooting is simple in principle, but not in execution. Shooters are not genetic clones and techniques that work for one aren't certain for another, hence the range of opinion you see, as well as the ongoing debate over details.
I don't fully agree with David on stance, but I don't fully share your interpretation either. Stance is a composite of most of the muscle, joint, and nervous systems of the body. Training those systems and building neural maps in the brain for their proper configuration is crucial. Tape on the floor, especially for training, can assist that. And it can be useful in a match to provide reference marks. Don Nygord (world champion and national record holder, if that's important to you) was an advocate of that method. Dr. Yur'yev (author of the Russian book 'Competitive Shooting') shows plots of the variations in foot position of leading shooters on repeated assumptions of position, which would imply that even the best can't act like robots. My personal take is that both should be part of the shooters program; reference marks to help build and maintain consistency and flexibility in matches to allow for the unforeseen.
Try not to take it personal when someone like David disagrees, even strongly disagrees. File it away if it doesn't ring true. You may find that it makes more sense when you have more experience. His comment about shooting a match as 60 individual shots is something you may someday realize is a really good way to handle the psychological stress of matches you think are important.
Larry