I thought I would let others know what I did to train myself when I started air pistol shooting last January.
I bought a Walther CP2 from Scott (last January) - my rifle shooting career (40 years) was coming to a close due to arthritis and other skeletal problems. My goal was to attain a good balance system similar to my air rifle position. However, when I picked up the pistol I realized that I assumed wrong about the balance - I had to tilt slightly forward to maintain a steady position. This required a few weeks of training to master the new 'feel'. I look at balance as the root of the tree to which the rest of the position is built on - it's very important to me.
The hold system was then added in (and I'm not referring to sight picture - I am referring to pure hold. I trained with weights and practiced holding the pistol on the target with no concern to the quality of the sight picture. I shot and dry fired thousands of rounds with the CP2 attempting to master balance and hold. I put a lot of concentration into my hold.
Then I moved to the second to the last mechanical aspect of the 'pie' - sight picture process. This one took a long time to figure out. Lifting from the bottom - dropping from the top - stopping half way through the black - stopping at the bottom of the black. After trying these different strategies, I settled on stopping half way through the black and then letting the hold system take it to the bottom of the black and wa-la! My groups all of a sudden shrank and was now happy with the process so far.
The trigger squeeze was actually easy for me as I used the same technique that I used for my rifle disciplines - squeeze through the 'shoe' and DO NOT STOP and trust your ability always - ALways - ALWAYS!
While I was resting between strings at the Nationals, I became convinced (by watching other Morini shooters that if I bought one I would be able to excel further than what the CP2 would take me. So I bought my 162EI from Scott there. I kept training with the CP2 until the Morini arrived. I began training with the Morini as soon as it arrived at home.
The gun felt so very comfortable in my hand. I jumped 12 points right off the bat with the first 60 shot training match I fired. My balance, hold, sight picture, and trigger squeeze had all come together with the gun.
I started out shooting 520's last January and I am now averaging 571.0. I train at least 2-3 hours every work night with the weekends affording 6-8 hours. The reason I mention this is that repetition with a high importance to mental concentration is of paramount importance to me - always has been. The one important thing that I carried over from rifle days was follow-through. If there is no follow-through - there is no chance of knowing what your effort resulted in (total absence of shot call).
I have also set goals along the way and have met them - and they were hard to attain!
Well, I just wanted to share my past 10 moths worth of training. I hope my story helps someone to improve their air pistol technique.
Matt
Here's What I Did
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Steve Swartz
Matt:
Great story- and provides a valuable "strategic reflection" on your experience. I note with great interest:
1) You certainly approached the problem as a "rifle guy:" work on stance (position) first, sight picture next, and trigger last! I would offer that many "pure pistol" guys would reverse that order . . .
2) Tracking your story, you were 520s in January, 540s at the USASNC in July, and then 570s now. What would it suggest if you overlaid your score performance against the training timeline?
3) Also interesting would be a discussion of what drills etc. you performed during training,a nd how these drills changed over time as you changed your focus.
4) Any coaching? Self coached like most of the rest of us? What resources id you use for building/executing your training program?
If nobody else is interested at least I am; you can email me offline at leslieswartz@charter.net if you are interested in dissecting/analyzing/improving your training plan. Don't want to speak for Ed Hall, David Levine and others, but my guess is they would be interested in kicking this around as well?
Steve Swartz
Great story- and provides a valuable "strategic reflection" on your experience. I note with great interest:
1) You certainly approached the problem as a "rifle guy:" work on stance (position) first, sight picture next, and trigger last! I would offer that many "pure pistol" guys would reverse that order . . .
2) Tracking your story, you were 520s in January, 540s at the USASNC in July, and then 570s now. What would it suggest if you overlaid your score performance against the training timeline?
3) Also interesting would be a discussion of what drills etc. you performed during training,a nd how these drills changed over time as you changed your focus.
4) Any coaching? Self coached like most of the rest of us? What resources id you use for building/executing your training program?
If nobody else is interested at least I am; you can email me offline at leslieswartz@charter.net if you are interested in dissecting/analyzing/improving your training plan. Don't want to speak for Ed Hall, David Levine and others, but my guess is they would be interested in kicking this around as well?
Steve Swartz
Re: Here's What I Did
That's some phenomenal progress. I'd certainly be interested in what you did when you trained. I have been shooting for 4 years, and only the last year did I start to realize how I need to train in order to to be competitive at an international level. So I've gone back to doing a lot of form building, sort of following a Bassham plan, lots of form building, followed by lots of group shooting, and only doing a little of actual live firing.Matt wrote: [snip]
I started out shooting 520's last January and I am now averaging 571.0. I train at least 2-3 hours every work night with the weekends affording 6-8 hours. The reason I mention this is that repetition with a high importance to mental concentration is of paramount importance to me - always has been. The one important thing that I carried over from rifle days was follow-through. If there is no follow-through - there is no chance of knowing what your effort resulted in (total absence of shot call).
[snip]
What did you do in training? Did you do a lot of wall holding/blank target work? Did you do a lot of group shooting? What did you do out side of shooting for physical fitness?
One word of caution about doing any kind of score improvement over time analysis, is not to get too caught up on that. When I first started shooting, I too experienced some amazing progress, start at 330, progressing to 375s (women's AP) less than a year. I thought at that rate, I'd be shooting perfect scores in a few more months for sure! You probably won't fall into that trap since you've been a rifle shooter, but it is easy to get caught up in graphing progress :-)
--trinity
Steve Swartz wrote:Matt:
Great story- and provides a valuable "strategic reflection" on your experience. I note with great interest:
1) You certainly approached the problem as a "rifle guy:" work on stance (position) first, sight picture next, and trigger last! I would offer that many "pure pistol" guys would reverse that order . . .
Because I have shot so much rifle (bigbore, long range, and smallbore) I learned from the best that balance is the root of a good position. A solid hold is not going to be possible without first 'sensing' your own balance.
2) Tracking your story, you were 520s in January, 540s at the USASNC in July, and then 570s now. What would it suggest if you overlaid your score performance against the training timeline?
This is interesting looking at it historically. The huge jump in average was a result of two important items that I worked on - the holding procedure melded into the trigger squeeze procedure. I experimented with several ways to discover a 'comfortable' procedure to attain a process by which the sight picture was settling onto the bull. They were separate experiments and long training sessions in the beginning but became one unconsciously. My scores really are just a happenstance of what I accomplished as far as training and practice are concerned. I never set score goals - nor have I ever set a score as a goal. It's always the quality of the shot that concerns me.
3) Also interesting would be a discussion of what drills etc. you performed during training,a nd how these drills changed over time as you changed your focus.
My balance drills consisted of holding the pistol as if I was going to shoot it and feeling the weight distribution in my feet (just as I did in rifle shooting). How much forward on the toes do I have to go in order to make my sway as small as possible? I think it took me about 8 weeks to figure that out! Then I incorporated the hold once I felt comfortable with the balance. I held on the target but did not pay attention to anything downrange - just sensing my balance and watching the hold of the pistol. Actually this came quickly as I have had a good hold for my entire shooting career (I used to shoot bullseye 30 years ago with a .22 for a couple of years). I'm still trying to refine the hold - it takes intense concentration to sense the points to which is causing the sway. The drills all became one really over time without even thinking about. But I still practice them individually however, especially the holding routine of just holding the pistol and not releasing the trigger - it is more important to sense your movements then perform a mechanical motion. I would like to know Steve if you use pistol shooting shoes and have you 'sensed' that they give you better balance? I am using a pair of tennis shoes but really it is what you can use effectively that counts.
4) Any coaching? Self coached like most of the rest of us? What resources id you use for building/executing your training program?
I have no coach(es) - I am a self taught shooter except for my rifle days where I had the best shooters coach and show me the ropes of what it takes to beome a well rounded competitor. I will say this - that I do have a long range goal of making it into the finals at the spring selection match and the Nationals this coming year. I am confident that my training and practice will take me there.
If nobody else is interested at least I am; you can email me offline at leslieswartz@charter.net if you are interested in dissecting/analyzing/improving your training plan. Don't want to speak for Ed Hall, David Levine and others, but my guess is they would be interested in kicking this around as well?
Steve Swartz
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Guest
I am currently using a 6 o'clock hold, whereas the front sight is almost touching the bottom of the black. And that is but for the last portion of the hold process. I stop the 'drop' midway down through the black and let the hold progress progress into its final stage - moving down into the the final position just a tad below the black. The shot is released unconsciously about 75% of the time. That's what I'm working on right now - refining the other 25%! I hope I have described this well enough.Anonymous wrote:[quote="Matt
I experimented with several ways to discover a 'comfortable' procedure to attain a process by which the sight picture was settling onto the bull. ]
Matt do you use sub 6 , 6 oclock, or center of bull hold?
Matt
Stance
Hi Matt,
Very interesting to hear how a rifleman, like yourself, approaches pistol shooting. The thing I found counterintuitive, and therefore most interesting, is building from the base up, starting with the stance. I have been doing a lot of dry firing sitting down to perfect my sight alignment and trigger technique but find that standing up I seem to sway a lot. Do you, or any of the others, have suggestions how to train this?
Thanks,
Bob
Very interesting to hear how a rifleman, like yourself, approaches pistol shooting. The thing I found counterintuitive, and therefore most interesting, is building from the base up, starting with the stance. I have been doing a lot of dry firing sitting down to perfect my sight alignment and trigger technique but find that standing up I seem to sway a lot. Do you, or any of the others, have suggestions how to train this?
Thanks,
Bob
Re: Stance
Hi Bob,Rapid wrote:Hi Matt,
Very interesting to hear how a rifleman, like yourself, approaches pistol shooting. The thing I found counterintuitive, and therefore most interesting, is building from the base up, starting with the stance. I have been doing a lot of dry firing sitting down to perfect my sight alignment and trigger technique but find that standing up I seem to sway a lot. Do you, or any of the others, have suggestions how to train this?
Thanks,
Bob
In my opinion you are trying to build a building from the top down - it's impossible. I don't mean that to be rude either - just being honest. All good positions are built from the ground up. You need to discover what a good position is by working long hours at it. Ask yourself when you are standing without holding the pistol - what is causing my sway (movement). What can I do to slow it down? Try it. Does it reduce the sway? If not, then think again and try something again. It does no good to sit in a chair - you are only trying to cheat the process and you'll lose big time. Spend some precious time standing and forcing yourself to be as still as possible - you'll 'feel' it man - trust me. Then put the pistol in your hand and see what changes the pistol has changed in the balance. I'm sure you'll find that you will have to put a small amount of weight on the front portion of your feet to reduce the sway and put control into your position. Your sighting process and trigger technique are the last mechanical systems that you are going to assemble on your 'building'. You have to HOLD in order to attain good shot processes (which result in good scores). Same goes for all shooting events - the elite practice their positions every time they go to the range to train.
Matt
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Steve Swartz
(Apologies in advance for the "Ed Hall Epic" length here!)
That's where Matt and I would disagree- for rifle, building from the "stance up" is recognized by many coaches as the way to go. However, for pistol, I think it is generally recognized that the better approach is to work from the "trigger down."
Now obviously what worked for Matt worked for Matt- however, I think he might find that his big performance increase occurred just around the same time he switched his focus from "stance/hold" over to "align/trigger."
This is really a fascinating "chicken or the egg" argument here.
My personal journey went like this FWIW:
- Coming out of rifle to conventional pistol, I was very concerned about "sight picture" (how come that red dot just won't behave?!) so focused on stance and hold early on.
- Spent (wasted) a lot of time concentrating on reducing wobble area and developed a serious case of chicken finger in the process.
- Insert three years of bullseye shooting with dot sight; including Aha! moments that led to figuring out that if I just perfected trigger control and accepted the dancing dot as long as it was somewhere in the black, magically tens would appear. Rapidly increased skills from that point.
- Then I switched to international (iron sights) and forgot every single Aha! lesson I ever learned.
- Now I had a really complicated problem: align AND aim AND trigger and doggone it if that wobble thing just didn't look horrendous all over again.
- So I focused on stance and hold again.
- This concentration on wobble developed into a plethora of bad habits; to include the process of simultaneously trying to align AND aim AND time the release of the shot.
- I languished as a 555-565 shooter for a couple of years. Very frustrating. Think about what I was doing my poor fire control computer (internalized shot process). My subconscious had no freakin idea what it was supposed to do!
- I finally re-achieved an AHA moment that took me back to my bullseye epiphany: align the sights, settle them out, and accept the subconscious release. COnverted my training methodology to yeah, ok, I am doing physical training etc. for good hold but I am going to establish my NPA then FORGET about stance/wobble etc.
- My wobble was what it was . . . I concentrated on maintaining alignment during trigger release . . . and my fire control computer now had a "bounded problem" and quickly learned exactly when to start applying the right amount of pressure in order to sink a ten.
- Saw an almost immediate step up from 555-565 to 570+ performance.
IN RETROSPECT
There is a reason why pretty much ALL of the top pistol experts emphasize "Settle into aiming area- accept the wobble- increase pressure while keeping sights perfectly aligned" as the optimum shot process.
Rifle and pistol disciplines are very different breeds of cat.
Do I now wish my wobble area was smaller?
Yep, I sure do.
Is an 8 ring wobble (100% inside 8 ring / 75% inside 9 ring / 10% inside 10 ring) "good enough?"
It's good enough for 580+ AS LONG AS YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS SHOT PROCESS IS WORKING!
Will I need to improve my stance/wobble to improve further?
Heck, I'm barely holding on to what I have now! I haven't gotten there yet. Right now I am collecting baseline data on where my NPA is in relationship to foot position and lean. Eventually I will collect data on how different body positions contribute to wobble area. But that certainly isn't a priority for me.
The priority is consistency in executing the "ideal shot process" every time. Right now I'm around 75-85 percent of shots. Working through the whole abort etc thing mentioned in grisly detail in other threads.
Jeeze after all this writing I think I'm going to try to shoot some tens . . .
Steve Swartz
That's where Matt and I would disagree- for rifle, building from the "stance up" is recognized by many coaches as the way to go. However, for pistol, I think it is generally recognized that the better approach is to work from the "trigger down."
Now obviously what worked for Matt worked for Matt- however, I think he might find that his big performance increase occurred just around the same time he switched his focus from "stance/hold" over to "align/trigger."
This is really a fascinating "chicken or the egg" argument here.
My personal journey went like this FWIW:
- Coming out of rifle to conventional pistol, I was very concerned about "sight picture" (how come that red dot just won't behave?!) so focused on stance and hold early on.
- Spent (wasted) a lot of time concentrating on reducing wobble area and developed a serious case of chicken finger in the process.
- Insert three years of bullseye shooting with dot sight; including Aha! moments that led to figuring out that if I just perfected trigger control and accepted the dancing dot as long as it was somewhere in the black, magically tens would appear. Rapidly increased skills from that point.
- Then I switched to international (iron sights) and forgot every single Aha! lesson I ever learned.
- Now I had a really complicated problem: align AND aim AND trigger and doggone it if that wobble thing just didn't look horrendous all over again.
- So I focused on stance and hold again.
- This concentration on wobble developed into a plethora of bad habits; to include the process of simultaneously trying to align AND aim AND time the release of the shot.
- I languished as a 555-565 shooter for a couple of years. Very frustrating. Think about what I was doing my poor fire control computer (internalized shot process). My subconscious had no freakin idea what it was supposed to do!
- I finally re-achieved an AHA moment that took me back to my bullseye epiphany: align the sights, settle them out, and accept the subconscious release. COnverted my training methodology to yeah, ok, I am doing physical training etc. for good hold but I am going to establish my NPA then FORGET about stance/wobble etc.
- My wobble was what it was . . . I concentrated on maintaining alignment during trigger release . . . and my fire control computer now had a "bounded problem" and quickly learned exactly when to start applying the right amount of pressure in order to sink a ten.
- Saw an almost immediate step up from 555-565 to 570+ performance.
IN RETROSPECT
There is a reason why pretty much ALL of the top pistol experts emphasize "Settle into aiming area- accept the wobble- increase pressure while keeping sights perfectly aligned" as the optimum shot process.
Rifle and pistol disciplines are very different breeds of cat.
Do I now wish my wobble area was smaller?
Yep, I sure do.
Is an 8 ring wobble (100% inside 8 ring / 75% inside 9 ring / 10% inside 10 ring) "good enough?"
It's good enough for 580+ AS LONG AS YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS SHOT PROCESS IS WORKING!
Will I need to improve my stance/wobble to improve further?
Heck, I'm barely holding on to what I have now! I haven't gotten there yet. Right now I am collecting baseline data on where my NPA is in relationship to foot position and lean. Eventually I will collect data on how different body positions contribute to wobble area. But that certainly isn't a priority for me.
The priority is consistency in executing the "ideal shot process" every time. Right now I'm around 75-85 percent of shots. Working through the whole abort etc thing mentioned in grisly detail in other threads.
Jeeze after all this writing I think I'm going to try to shoot some tens . . .
Steve Swartz
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Dan
Wow,
all you guys shoot awesome scores, congrats! I am nowhere near that since i only started last year, and i may well be physically unable ot perform like that, however i thought about and observed the process of shooting air pistol intensely since systems analysis is my profession and i cant help tryin the same approach with whatever i do...
Overall with my naive, illiterate approach i would tend to agree with Matt. The reason is simple, i noticed that while my hold and trigger release are certainly far from perfect, the main disturbance is the "wobble" as you say steve that comes from angular movement around my heels. I do not know wether i am the onyl one who rotates around his heels but i see no other component that induces such amount of disturbance. it goes far enough to easily bring my sights out of the black. By that time, no trigger drill whatsoever can help me to reliably shoot tens.
Right now i am wondering if i can influence the hit picture by moving my stance from almost 180° (which will result in right-left deviation) to a 135° or even almost 90° stance which will move the hits towards up-down or diagonally down-left to up-right.
Of course the amplitude will be the same, more or less. Dunno if i make myself clear since my english lacks almost as much as my shooting does hehe...
Anyhow if by now i had one wish free for a shooting related skill i would love to learn to keep my lower body still for 10 seconds. That would BOOST my results.
all you guys shoot awesome scores, congrats! I am nowhere near that since i only started last year, and i may well be physically unable ot perform like that, however i thought about and observed the process of shooting air pistol intensely since systems analysis is my profession and i cant help tryin the same approach with whatever i do...
Overall with my naive, illiterate approach i would tend to agree with Matt. The reason is simple, i noticed that while my hold and trigger release are certainly far from perfect, the main disturbance is the "wobble" as you say steve that comes from angular movement around my heels. I do not know wether i am the onyl one who rotates around his heels but i see no other component that induces such amount of disturbance. it goes far enough to easily bring my sights out of the black. By that time, no trigger drill whatsoever can help me to reliably shoot tens.
Right now i am wondering if i can influence the hit picture by moving my stance from almost 180° (which will result in right-left deviation) to a 135° or even almost 90° stance which will move the hits towards up-down or diagonally down-left to up-right.
Of course the amplitude will be the same, more or less. Dunno if i make myself clear since my english lacks almost as much as my shooting does hehe...
Anyhow if by now i had one wish free for a shooting related skill i would love to learn to keep my lower body still for 10 seconds. That would BOOST my results.
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Steve Swartz
1) There is no way the gun will stop moving.
2) The shot process requires that you release the shot milliseconds ahead of when the muzzle is pointed at the ten ring.
3) There is no way to reliably perform this act consciously; it must be done naturally and subconsciously.
4) The proper timing requires a recognition and prediction of the trace pattern of the muzzle over the target.
5) The pattern recognition and timing of release requires many thousands of repetitions to be learned.
and
6) On any given day your movement will be "X" and there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
7) This movement consists of misalignment of the sights and misalignment of the aim.
8) The pointing error from misalignment of the sights will always be much greater than the pointing error from misalignment of the aim.
since
9) You cannot control the misalignment of the aim.
10) You can do a fairly credible job of controlling the misalignment of the sights.
Therefore
11) You must program your shot release process by controlling the sight alignment as tightly as possible, recognizing when your current uncontrollable wobble is as settled as it will get, and "apply constant pressure" (not how it really happens, but how many people perceive the shot release process) so that the shot is released subconsciously without disturbing sight alignment.
12) Repeat 12 thousands of times.
It's not really complicated.
You can shoot 40/60 tens with an 8 ring hold.
Yeah, it seems like "magic" (or "bullshit") but when top shooters are hooked up to tracking systems (like Rika, Noptel, Scatt, etc.) you can see the evidence with your own eyes.
Shooter A rips down a 580 with a tight-9 ring hold; Shooter B dunks a 580 with a loose-8 ring hold.
Bottom Line: Yes, Everything Is Important. However- the absolute most "Bang for the Buck" is achieved when you concentrate on keeping hte sights aligned, *trusting* whatever hold you have, and releasing the shot "automatically" (and a great way to develop an automatic release is by just accepting your settle and "increasing opressure on the trigger").
Look guys- I know this is a very counterintuitive thing to do. I know it's hard to accept. I know it's hard to put into practice. I beleive it 100% and *still* am only able to execute maybe 75% of the time.
Why am I "arguing" about this so fervently when it would be much better (politer, etc) to just nod, smile and say "Go For It!"?
I don't know . . . maybe it's like being a reformed smoker . . . "Wobblers Anonymous" or some such . . .
Steve Swartz
2) The shot process requires that you release the shot milliseconds ahead of when the muzzle is pointed at the ten ring.
3) There is no way to reliably perform this act consciously; it must be done naturally and subconsciously.
4) The proper timing requires a recognition and prediction of the trace pattern of the muzzle over the target.
5) The pattern recognition and timing of release requires many thousands of repetitions to be learned.
and
6) On any given day your movement will be "X" and there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
7) This movement consists of misalignment of the sights and misalignment of the aim.
8) The pointing error from misalignment of the sights will always be much greater than the pointing error from misalignment of the aim.
since
9) You cannot control the misalignment of the aim.
10) You can do a fairly credible job of controlling the misalignment of the sights.
Therefore
11) You must program your shot release process by controlling the sight alignment as tightly as possible, recognizing when your current uncontrollable wobble is as settled as it will get, and "apply constant pressure" (not how it really happens, but how many people perceive the shot release process) so that the shot is released subconsciously without disturbing sight alignment.
12) Repeat 12 thousands of times.
It's not really complicated.
You can shoot 40/60 tens with an 8 ring hold.
Yeah, it seems like "magic" (or "bullshit") but when top shooters are hooked up to tracking systems (like Rika, Noptel, Scatt, etc.) you can see the evidence with your own eyes.
Shooter A rips down a 580 with a tight-9 ring hold; Shooter B dunks a 580 with a loose-8 ring hold.
Bottom Line: Yes, Everything Is Important. However- the absolute most "Bang for the Buck" is achieved when you concentrate on keeping hte sights aligned, *trusting* whatever hold you have, and releasing the shot "automatically" (and a great way to develop an automatic release is by just accepting your settle and "increasing opressure on the trigger").
Look guys- I know this is a very counterintuitive thing to do. I know it's hard to accept. I know it's hard to put into practice. I beleive it 100% and *still* am only able to execute maybe 75% of the time.
Why am I "arguing" about this so fervently when it would be much better (politer, etc) to just nod, smile and say "Go For It!"?
I don't know . . . maybe it's like being a reformed smoker . . . "Wobblers Anonymous" or some such . . .
Steve Swartz
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rick lee
thanks i learnt alot from this thread.
now i know why i can still shoot 9s and sometimes 10s when people comment that my wobble is very large(shooting bout 535ish now). i think this is partially because my focus is more on my stance and less on sight alignment and triggering. i too train from the ground up and for the past few months have only worked on stance and i feel i still havent gotten it right. i am taking so long partially due to the fact that i train only about once or twice a week.
i think i should really rethink how i train and maybe i should finally take a look at triggering which i believe to be causing me valuable points.
now i know why i can still shoot 9s and sometimes 10s when people comment that my wobble is very large(shooting bout 535ish now). i think this is partially because my focus is more on my stance and less on sight alignment and triggering. i too train from the ground up and for the past few months have only worked on stance and i feel i still havent gotten it right. i am taking so long partially due to the fact that i train only about once or twice a week.
i think i should really rethink how i train and maybe i should finally take a look at triggering which i believe to be causing me valuable points.