When I am "on target", I have noticed that I wait sometime too long to take the shot.
Most times I have a good sight picture, but for some reason I pass it up and wait longer, thus making my arm/hand/gun start to shake more.
I find that I get a much better shot, if I shoot relatively quickly after attaining the sight picture.
Do most shooters shoot relatively quickly after attaining a sight picture?
John
Hold Time? How long is too long?
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John,
I've been told optimum is generally between 3 and 5 seconds. As a training tool I sometimes count in my head to re-inforce the timings and so I know when to abort. I personally find my best shots are generally 2 or 3 seconds when it comes together nicely (unfortunately not frequently though).
Rob.
I've been told optimum is generally between 3 and 5 seconds. As a training tool I sometimes count in my head to re-inforce the timings and so I know when to abort. I personally find my best shots are generally 2 or 3 seconds when it comes together nicely (unfortunately not frequently though).
Rob.
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David Levene
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
How long is too long? As soon as you think about how long you have been on aim, you have already passed the optimum time.
That is a glib answer I know, but everyone is different. Also, most people's optimum time will change from day to day and even from shot to shot.
Rather than trying to get the shot away within a certain time, learn to abort as soon as it doesn't feel right or your concentration wanders. None of this "should I abort or wait another few seconds". Abort immediately and congratulate yourself for leaving a 10 in the barrel.
That is a glib answer I know, but everyone is different. Also, most people's optimum time will change from day to day and even from shot to shot.
Rather than trying to get the shot away within a certain time, learn to abort as soon as it doesn't feel right or your concentration wanders. None of this "should I abort or wait another few seconds". Abort immediately and congratulate yourself for leaving a 10 in the barrel.
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Steve Swartz
Super question- and one we all struggle with at various times.
First, I agree with David's (glib?) answer; but of course have my $0.02 to toss in.
Principle: Once you become aware of your hold/settle, it is time to abort.
Consider what some of us would term the "perfect shot process;" where we enter the final settle/release relaxed, focused, and alert. The aligned sights come down through the target, and settle into our aiming area. We clear our mind, accept our hold and keep the isghts aligned . . . the shot is released without disruption to the sight alignment or quality of settle.
The key here is that while we may be aware of the element of alignment, we are not aware- or at least not consciously managing- the hold or release.
This should happen (as others mentioned) 2-4 seconds after initial settling in with sights aligned.
If you accept the above at face value, consider:
1) If you have becomne consciously aware of the hold, the length of hold, or the overall process, yoiu have "stepped outside the process" and are now off your shot plan. Best case scenario at this point . . . abort. Worst case scenario . . . wrestle a ten out of it and set your training back weeks, months, maybe years?
2) Overholding is a SYMPTOM of a much deeper problem. When you wait until you are consciously aware of the shot process during the phase when the shot process is supposed to be semi-autonomic (mostly subconscious), you are no longer training the proper behaviors, you are training bad habits. [personal note: this was the biggest epiphany for me personally in moving from "terminal 560 shooter" to "570 with gusts to 590" shooter. This is the hardest thing to overcome . . . and most beneficial to overcome.]
Principle: You must align, settle, then maintain alignment while you accept your settle and give permission for the subconscious release of the shot. This forces the programming of your "Fire Control System Computer" without which you will never *reliably* strike the deep tens.
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS FOR EVERY SINGLE SHOT
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS FOR EVERY SINGLE SHOT FOR THOUSANDS OF SHOTS
Yes, I'm shouting.
Shouting in frustration . . . this most important principle is *hard.*
Shouting in joy . . . this most important principle *works.*
Steve Swartz
First, I agree with David's (glib?) answer; but of course have my $0.02 to toss in.
Principle: Once you become aware of your hold/settle, it is time to abort.
Consider what some of us would term the "perfect shot process;" where we enter the final settle/release relaxed, focused, and alert. The aligned sights come down through the target, and settle into our aiming area. We clear our mind, accept our hold and keep the isghts aligned . . . the shot is released without disruption to the sight alignment or quality of settle.
The key here is that while we may be aware of the element of alignment, we are not aware- or at least not consciously managing- the hold or release.
This should happen (as others mentioned) 2-4 seconds after initial settling in with sights aligned.
If you accept the above at face value, consider:
1) If you have becomne consciously aware of the hold, the length of hold, or the overall process, yoiu have "stepped outside the process" and are now off your shot plan. Best case scenario at this point . . . abort. Worst case scenario . . . wrestle a ten out of it and set your training back weeks, months, maybe years?
2) Overholding is a SYMPTOM of a much deeper problem. When you wait until you are consciously aware of the shot process during the phase when the shot process is supposed to be semi-autonomic (mostly subconscious), you are no longer training the proper behaviors, you are training bad habits. [personal note: this was the biggest epiphany for me personally in moving from "terminal 560 shooter" to "570 with gusts to 590" shooter. This is the hardest thing to overcome . . . and most beneficial to overcome.]
Principle: You must align, settle, then maintain alignment while you accept your settle and give permission for the subconscious release of the shot. This forces the programming of your "Fire Control System Computer" without which you will never *reliably* strike the deep tens.
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS FOR EVERY SINGLE SHOT
YOU MUST TRUST THE PROCESS FOR EVERY SINGLE SHOT FOR THOUSANDS OF SHOTS
Yes, I'm shouting.
Shouting in frustration . . . this most important principle is *hard.*
Shouting in joy . . . this most important principle *works.*
Steve Swartz
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Steve Swartz
If "aim bigger" means "accept the hold you've got and stop waiting for a better one" then yeah, it works!
A better answer is to "aim bigger" *before* 10 seconds or so have pissed away . . . and your level of concentration and physical focus have deteriorated to the point where you are just as likely to shoot an 8 as a 10.
Steve Swartz
A better answer is to "aim bigger" *before* 10 seconds or so have pissed away . . . and your level of concentration and physical focus have deteriorated to the point where you are just as likely to shoot an 8 as a 10.
Steve Swartz
Re: Hold Time? How long is too long?
7-10 seconds
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Bruce Martindale
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:46 pm
Whatever you are comfortable with is one parameter but the second is physical ability. Cliff Halanar always said the eye is what tires first, not the arm. Part of your training is the ability to hold . The shot should be the same each time. For me it is 60 minutes of meditation on a good day (I shoot fast). I wake up when I am out of targets or the register says stop.
Watch champion shooters and talk with coaches. I have shot next to Daryl and watched him after I was done. He WAS holding 20 seconds but a year later on changed to a shorter window of 13 or so last time I saw him. A good range for me is 15 sec max but I rarely get there.
Holding too long consumes your energy for the remaining shots.
regards
Watch champion shooters and talk with coaches. I have shot next to Daryl and watched him after I was done. He WAS holding 20 seconds but a year later on changed to a shorter window of 13 or so last time I saw him. A good range for me is 15 sec max but I rarely get there.
Holding too long consumes your energy for the remaining shots.
regards
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Guest
15 seconds is way, way too long. I suspect they are not 'on aim' for that long and are actually resting above the target, taking an extra breath. I shot next to Daryl in Holland earlier this year and he did not appear to hold for anything like that amount of time when 'on aim'. If you look in any shooting books you will see the eye loses focus after 8 or 10 seconds (when holding your breath) so you don't want to be on aim then.
Whilst there are personal differences I'd suspect almost all shooters will perform better holding for roughly 2 - 5 seconds <light blue touch paper>.
I will have a good look at my next big shooting competition, when I can, but I will be extremely suprised if anyone is holding more than 6 or 8 seconds on aim (unless they are shooting badly).
Rob.
Whilst there are personal differences I'd suspect almost all shooters will perform better holding for roughly 2 - 5 seconds <light blue touch paper>.
I will have a good look at my next big shooting competition, when I can, but I will be extremely suprised if anyone is holding more than 6 or 8 seconds on aim (unless they are shooting badly).
Rob.
Last edited by RobStubbs on Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
In my world the "hold" starts when my pistol is right on sighting area and sights are aligned. This is when I apply more pressure on the trigger. My goal is to fire the shot within 3-7 seconds because my steadyness in best within that timespan.Anonymous wrote:Just a minor but important point of clarrification please.
When does the "hold" start?
is it from the time you lift your arm to aim, or is it when in alignment.
15 seconds when everything is in alignment seems a bloody long time to me.
/Axel
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Bob LeDoux
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:08 pm
- Location: Jefferson, OR (near Salem)
Hold Times
Do you guys use longer hold times for free pistol as compared to air pistol?
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
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Steve Swartz
Fred:
I shoot mainly AP, and have become accustomed to recognizing a certain pattern of acceptable sight alignment and wobble. On the FP, the sights are perceptably harder to align and the wobble is perceptably harder to settle because the sight picture is scaled down (75%?).
When picking up the FP, it takes longer- and a higher level of concentration- to achieve an "acceptable" sight picture/settle.
By around the 30th shot of hte match my pace begins to pick up, as I enter a comfort zone when I recognize that the 9/10 picture doesn't have to be as tight as I thought it did.
I know there are plenty of solutions here (hey, I already have the widest front and rear sights I can find!) but FP is not my focus.
Steve Swartz
I shoot mainly AP, and have become accustomed to recognizing a certain pattern of acceptable sight alignment and wobble. On the FP, the sights are perceptably harder to align and the wobble is perceptably harder to settle because the sight picture is scaled down (75%?).
When picking up the FP, it takes longer- and a higher level of concentration- to achieve an "acceptable" sight picture/settle.
By around the 30th shot of hte match my pace begins to pick up, as I enter a comfort zone when I recognize that the 9/10 picture doesn't have to be as tight as I thought it did.
I know there are plenty of solutions here (hey, I already have the widest front and rear sights I can find!) but FP is not my focus.
Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Steve Swartz said:
What do the extra wide front/rear sights do for you?
Fred
Interesting. I find it easier to settle and align because the smaller FP bull (67%) is not 'in my face' and I find it easier to 'ignore'.On the FP, the sights are perceptably harder to align and the wobble is perceptably harder to settle because the sight picture is scaled down (75%?).
What do the extra wide front/rear sights do for you?
Fred
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Steve Swartz
Tradeoff management.
Smaller front sight, tighter rear notch: error more noticeable
Larger front sight, wider rear notch: error less noticeable
Optimal choice: smallest/tightest combination that hides your error.
For me, the smaller sight picture makes the shot look a lot worse than it really is.
(also- wider rear notch makes it easier to focus on front sight- less diffraction effect. In low-light situations, really small/narrow is worst of all worlds)
Steve Swartz
Smaller front sight, tighter rear notch: error more noticeable
Larger front sight, wider rear notch: error less noticeable
Optimal choice: smallest/tightest combination that hides your error.
For me, the smaller sight picture makes the shot look a lot worse than it really is.
(also- wider rear notch makes it easier to focus on front sight- less diffraction effect. In low-light situations, really small/narrow is worst of all worlds)
Steve Swartz
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Benonymous
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:06 pm
Thinking = too long
I agree with the other posters who said that when you start "thinking" about your sight picture, wobble, hold, it's too long. I did an experiment with myself and tried a couple of different methods last night.
I tried lowering the gun and basically firing within a second or two of aquiring my sight picture. Result-good.
The second method was to deliberately hold longer and really "fix" my sight picture. Result-awful.
I now know that I have to practise the two second window when I dryfire. There's no question about it, you have to trust the training and the process.
If you are "thinking" you're either not trained enough or you've got a bad habit, maybe "trigger shy"
BTW I have a white wall in front of me at the range and i always raise the gun and sight it on the blank wall before I lower it, that way I already have 70 to80 percent of my sight picture before I settle on the target.
I tried lowering the gun and basically firing within a second or two of aquiring my sight picture. Result-good.
The second method was to deliberately hold longer and really "fix" my sight picture. Result-awful.
I now know that I have to practise the two second window when I dryfire. There's no question about it, you have to trust the training and the process.
If you are "thinking" you're either not trained enough or you've got a bad habit, maybe "trigger shy"
BTW I have a white wall in front of me at the range and i always raise the gun and sight it on the blank wall before I lower it, that way I already have 70 to80 percent of my sight picture before I settle on the target.