What is the sampling rate of Rika, or others?

[Guest]

I am just wondering how fast the Rika samples the hand movement. Is it 1ms, 10ms or 30ms/per sample? Since the pistol lock time is about 4ms, I'd think that it needs a machine can sample at least 2ms/per sample to get a true reading of the finger movement. Any information on other electronic trainer is welcomed, too. Thanks.

[Steve Swartz]

1) 4ms seems an awful lot lower than the typical 200ms or so duration measured in the laboratory . . . that sounds closer to barrel dwell time than lock time . . . even mechanical lock time (trigger to muzzle) is generally longer than that?

2) The sampling rate is somewhat dependent on your CPU clock speed

3) I typically set my Rika *display* at 20ms resolution (indirectly, by adjusting "dot size" and timing of color codes) and this seems to not be a problem (10 dots inside a 200ms window) so the Rika at least captures at better than 20ms

4) Also not sure how you are capturing finger movement- are you talking about the pressure sensor attachment? The sample rate for that device is faster than the optical bore-line trace capture. I don't think the argument could be made that the bore-line trace captures trigger finger movement except very indirectly; and only if you have a wicked trigger control problem?

I think I know what you're trying to get at here but I'm not sure I really understand.

Steve Swartz

[David Levene]

Scatt Solution samples at 200hz (5ms)

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply. I don't think I am using the right terminolog. My understanding of the '4ms' time is the time from the trigger release to the hammer hitting the spring. There is no gas in the barrel, and the pellet doesn't move yet. I guess it is the travel time of the hammer from the lock position to the hitting position. During this time, only the hammer moves. In electrical engineering terms, it is like a square wave of 4ms duration, and we'd need at least two samples to read it correctly. Of course, it is purely theoretical and I am no way near that level of performance. But it is a very interesting academic subject and might make a difference between 10.9 and 10.8.

[Steve Swartz]

Guest:

Ummm . . . . not really. This has been hashed out many times in this group.

Fundamentally, mechanical lock time is 1) somewhat irrelevant to the whole shooting process; and even if it were, 2) too small be of any consequence irregardless.

The proper shot process and timing of the release of the shot does in no way- without reasonable orders of magnitude (flintlocks or faster)- depend on faster lock time.

Your looking at 200 ms or more from release to muzzle. Where your gun is pointed during any particular 4ms . . . or 40ms . . . or even 200ms time segment during that period is irrelevant.

Align your sights- release the shot- repeat 10,000 times- your subconscious will handle the lock time as long as it is consistent- duration doesn't matter.

Steve Swartz

[Pär Hylander]

Guest:

Ummm . . . . not really. This has been hashed out many times in this group.

Fundamentally, mechanical lock time is 1) somewhat irrelevant to the whole shooting process; and even if it were, 2) too small be of any consequence irregardless.

The proper shot process and timing of the release of the shot does in no way- without reasonable orders of magnitude (flintlocks or faster)- depend on faster lock time.

Your looking at 200 ms or more from release to muzzle. Where your gun is pointed during any particular 4ms . . . or 40ms . . . or even 200ms time segment during that period is irrelevant.

Align your sights- release the shot- repeat 10,000 times- your subconscious will handle the lock time as long as it is consistent- duration doesn't matter.

Steve Swartz

I did some measurement with accelerometers and oscillocope many years ago. A Unique 69/U .22 lr was the platform. I do not remeber the time from beginning of hammer fall (measurable) to slide in back position (and bullet long gone) but it was indeed much shorter time than 200 ms, indeed!

What is included in your 200 ms? Afaik, the IPCS-style shooters has about 150 ms split time between shots.

[Steve Swartz]

Reaction time + trigger time + fire control lock time + pellet dwell time

In other words, from the moment the shot is a "GO" until it leaves the muzzle.

IPSC split times of 150ms is a new one on me- what's the current world record (Ed McGivern?) for 6 shots from horn to last shot? I think Ed takes more than 150ms to get the first one off . . . and probably at least 150ms between each successive shot.

In any case, the point remains on the table that the human behaviors during the process (what matters) are more improtant than the mechanical delay (what doesn't matter) and measurement a complete order of magnitude inside the human behavior time loses relevance?

My position is that discretion smaller than 20-40 ms is nice but not really useful. The original post stated

"I am just wondering how fast the Rika samples the hand movement. Is it 1ms, 10ms or 30ms/per sample? Since the pistol lock time is about 4ms, I'd think that it needs a machine can sample at least 2ms/per sample to get a true reading of the finger movement. Any information on other electronic trainer is welcomed, too. Thanks."

Even with the further clarification about how "lock time" was defined there is still an assumption that "lock time" is somehow relevant to delivering the shot.

I think this assumption demonstrates a misunderstanding of how a shot is delivered.

Steve Swartz

[Pär Hylander]

Reaction time + trigger time + fire control lock time + pellet dwell time

In other words, from the moment the shot is a "GO" until it leaves the muzzle.

IPSC split times of 150ms is a new one on me- what's the current world record (Ed McGivern?) for 6 shots from horn to last shot? I think Ed takes more than 150ms to get the first one off . . . and probably at least 150ms between each successive shot.

In any case, the point remains on the table that the human behaviors during the process (what matters) are more improtant than the mechanical delay (what doesn't matter) and measurement a complete order of magnitude inside the human behavior time loses relevance?

My position is that discretion smaller than 20-40 ms is nice but not really useful. The original post stated

"I am just wondering how fast the Rika samples the hand movement. Is it 1ms, 10ms or 30ms/per sample? Since the pistol lock time is about 4ms, I'd think that it needs a machine can sample at least 2ms/per sample to get a true reading of the finger movement. Any information on other electronic trainer is welcomed, too. Thanks."

Even with the further clarification about how "lock time" was defined there is still an assumption that "lock time" is somehow relevant to delivering the shot.

I think this assumption demonstrates a misunderstanding of how a shot is delivered.

Steve Swartz

Ok, perhaps language problems add on to the confusion also. I would have defined it as the time for the equipment to deliver the bullet (or even just to strike the primer) from the moment of trigger pull. At least that is how I would interpret it if written in swedish

If you try to shoot as fast as you can with a semiautomatic, you will easily fire 5 shot within 1 second, and then you are in the neigbourhood of 150 ms split time. Perhaps a free pistol shooter would not be able to do it very controlled, but a well trained IPSC style or rapid fire shooter would probably place most shots within 8th ring at the rapid fire target.

As I see it, rapid fire shooting and "offensive" style precision shooting is not so much about reaction, it is more about timing, so discussion about reaction time is not really relevant IMO.

I also have the oppinion that shorter "mechanical" lock time (as my definition) is an advantage over a long lock time. I think that the consequence on the target of a badly executed trigger pull is smaller with a short lock time