Hi
One of our shooters took first in 3-P Air Rifle, first in Standing Air Rifle, and was 12th (I think) in Silhouette, so he was 9th overall at the 4-H National Match in Columbia MO. OBVIOUSLY our teams will be shooting Silhouette before the next National match.
Which of the more powerful air rifles are accurate enough? We have NRA money, but would REALLY like to buy 888's which aren't even close to being good enough for Silhouette. I know Anschutz makes a field gun, but we even if we have enough for an Anschutz, it would be a 3-P gun.
HELP..
Mike
Wichita KS
4-H National Championships
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mikeschroeder
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4-H National Championships
Last edited by mikeschroeder on Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 4-H National Championships
Hi Mike,mikeschroeder wrote:Hi
One of our shooters took first in 3-P Air Rifle, first in Standing Air Rifle, and was 12th (I think) in Silhouette, so he was 9th overall. OBVIOUSLY our teams will be shooting Silhouette before the next National match.
Which of the more powerful air rifles are accurate enough? We have NRA money, but would REALLY like to buy 888's which aren't even close to being good enough for Silhouette. I know Anschutz makes a field gun, but we even if we have enough for an Anschutz, it would be a 3-P gun.
HELP..
Mike
Wichita KS
Congratulations on a fine showing at the championship! Was that in Bowling Green also? There was so much going on there this month (Progressive Pistol, Daisy Championships, J.O. 3P Championships, etc) I lose track...
We had a team at the Progressive Pistol and J.O. 3P Championships, and also shot one of the Daisy AP matches.
About Silhouette - is that similar to (or the same as) Field Target? If so, the main difference is the velocity and optics. I believe most of the top 3P guns can be increased enough to be competitive.
Jay V
IL
Mike ... Tell your shooter congrats!
a few questions first:
Did they shoot the silhouette indoors or outdoors?
What guns were being shot there?
If they shot outdoors, see my post on the 888's and the heat.
I've also noticed that our 888's are not very consistent gun to gun on the velocties. They are accurate as all getout, but when we have practiced full distance silhouette, the hold positions for each gun are very different ... sometimes as much as 2 inches on the Rams.
I would also NOT use the same gun 3-P and standing as the silhouette gun. Trying to get a consistent fit on that 3/8" rail and scope rings is difficult ... very sensitive to the torque applied to the mount screws to the rail.
I'm actually getting three 753's loaned to me to mount scopes on to try out. We've worked with 888's and the TF-79, both are adequate to knock the Rams down
BTW ... my kids seem pretty happy with some 2-7x32 Hammers scopes with grid reticles. Sight in at one distance and use the grids to hold over/under as appropriate.
I've also been looking at picking up an IZH-61 to try on the silhouette. Anyone tried one?
a few questions first:
Did they shoot the silhouette indoors or outdoors?
What guns were being shot there?
If they shot outdoors, see my post on the 888's and the heat.
I've also noticed that our 888's are not very consistent gun to gun on the velocties. They are accurate as all getout, but when we have practiced full distance silhouette, the hold positions for each gun are very different ... sometimes as much as 2 inches on the Rams.
I would also NOT use the same gun 3-P and standing as the silhouette gun. Trying to get a consistent fit on that 3/8" rail and scope rings is difficult ... very sensitive to the torque applied to the mount screws to the rail.
I'm actually getting three 753's loaned to me to mount scopes on to try out. We've worked with 888's and the TF-79, both are adequate to knock the Rams down
BTW ... my kids seem pretty happy with some 2-7x32 Hammers scopes with grid reticles. Sight in at one distance and use the grids to hold over/under as appropriate.
I've also been looking at picking up an IZH-61 to try on the silhouette. Anyone tried one?
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mikeschroeder
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- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Quoting Jmartin...Mike ... Tell your shooter congrats!
a few questions first:
Did they shoot the silhouette indoors or outdoors?
What guns were being shot there?
COMMENT:
I don't know what was being shot, as one of our shooters went with the Kansas state team, to Columbia MO 4-H Nationals by the way. I also don't know (yet) whether they shot indoors or out.
I would also NOT use the same gun 3-P and standing as the silhouette gun. Trying to get a consistent fit on that 3/8" rail and scope rings is difficult ... very sensitive to the torque applied to the mount screws to the rail.
COMMENT: Yep, I have an RWS model 52 (glorified model 48) with a 4-12 BSA Scope on it, but haven't really done much with it. It was loaned out to the kids who were supposed to be going, but we got political.
a few questions first:
Did they shoot the silhouette indoors or outdoors?
What guns were being shot there?
COMMENT:
I don't know what was being shot, as one of our shooters went with the Kansas state team, to Columbia MO 4-H Nationals by the way. I also don't know (yet) whether they shot indoors or out.
I would also NOT use the same gun 3-P and standing as the silhouette gun. Trying to get a consistent fit on that 3/8" rail and scope rings is difficult ... very sensitive to the torque applied to the mount screws to the rail.
COMMENT: Yep, I have an RWS model 52 (glorified model 48) with a 4-12 BSA Scope on it, but haven't really done much with it. It was loaned out to the kids who were supposed to be going, but we got political.
4-H National Match - Silhouette
I would also like to pass on congrats to you KS shooter. Impressive performance in Sporter and Standing.
Silhouette was shot outdoors in varying conditions from relay to relay.
Equipment ranged from 853 with standard sights to FX Typhoons with high magnification scopes. Equipment rules were based on the NRA Sporter Air Rifle Silhouette class definitions.
If shot outdoors, the standard sporter class guns (Daisy 853/753/888, etc) will have problems with wind at the longer distances. One of our shooters did well with a XS40, but the wind conditions were a little more favorable in his relay.
(At our state shoot last week, top two places were taken with XS40's outdoors, but we use slightly modified distances to accomodate the lower power guns)
Indoors or outdoors, a scope is a necessity in this game.
Cliff
Silhouette was shot outdoors in varying conditions from relay to relay.
Equipment ranged from 853 with standard sights to FX Typhoons with high magnification scopes. Equipment rules were based on the NRA Sporter Air Rifle Silhouette class definitions.
If shot outdoors, the standard sporter class guns (Daisy 853/753/888, etc) will have problems with wind at the longer distances. One of our shooters did well with a XS40, but the wind conditions were a little more favorable in his relay.
(At our state shoot last week, top two places were taken with XS40's outdoors, but we use slightly modified distances to accomodate the lower power guns)
Indoors or outdoors, a scope is a necessity in this game.
Cliff
Silhouette Guns
Hey Cliff thanks ...
You have validated what I have thought for a while on the 10m 3-position guns being used as silhouette guns.
Do you know what the winning guns were ... in our state they only shoot silhouette at 1/2 distance and we don't really know which guns are good for the 46yd shots.
I've been having my kids shoot a TF79 w/ a 2-7X scope and it does real well (only about 2" difference of POI between 20yds and 46yds which we can cover using a grid type reticle.)
You have validated what I have thought for a while on the 10m 3-position guns being used as silhouette guns.
Do you know what the winning guns were ... in our state they only shoot silhouette at 1/2 distance and we don't really know which guns are good for the 46yd shots.
I've been having my kids shoot a TF79 w/ a 2-7X scope and it does real well (only about 2" difference of POI between 20yds and 46yds which we can cover using a grid type reticle.)
4-H Nationals
Well, I think the top guns used were FX Typhoon's or similar style and Daisy XS40's.
Cliff
Cliff
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mikeschroeder
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Re: 4-H Nationals
Who sells the FX Typhoon's. Never seen one, I'd like to see pictures.cdwing wrote:Well, I think the top guns used were FX Typhoon's or similar style and Daisy XS40's.
Cliff
Thanks
Mike
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Mike
This reply may be a little late, but better late than....you know.
The rifles that the Georgia team was using at the 4-H nationals were a Logun Solo and a Webley Scott Raider. Both guns are PCP and when fully charged will shoot around 950 fps. I purchased them from Pyramyd Air.
We chose these over the Springers and the 10m guns for a couple of reasons. Mostly the spring powered guns that I tested were not ( I felt ) accurate enough at the longer distances. I only had time to test a few Webley Scott models. The 888s were no good past 30 yds.
Hopefuly you have not made any purchase yet. I was reading a rather heated thread on Graybeards Silhouette formun about possabily the NRA changing the sporter air rifle rules back to the way they were in 2004.
This would make the two guns that I have illegal next year.
You might want to see how it pans out before making a purchase.
Good luck, keep up the good work , hope we meet again next year in South Dakota.
Chris Brinton
Coweta County 4-H Coach
Newnan, Georgia
This reply may be a little late, but better late than....you know.
The rifles that the Georgia team was using at the 4-H nationals were a Logun Solo and a Webley Scott Raider. Both guns are PCP and when fully charged will shoot around 950 fps. I purchased them from Pyramyd Air.
We chose these over the Springers and the 10m guns for a couple of reasons. Mostly the spring powered guns that I tested were not ( I felt ) accurate enough at the longer distances. I only had time to test a few Webley Scott models. The 888s were no good past 30 yds.
Hopefuly you have not made any purchase yet. I was reading a rather heated thread on Graybeards Silhouette formun about possabily the NRA changing the sporter air rifle rules back to the way they were in 2004.
This would make the two guns that I have illegal next year.
You might want to see how it pans out before making a purchase.
Good luck, keep up the good work , hope we meet again next year in South Dakota.
Chris Brinton
Coweta County 4-H Coach
Newnan, Georgia
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Guest
Here is the link to the thread.
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2 ... 34a254aa5b
if it doesnt work the subject was Texas State Airgun Silhouette Championships. It is a long read.
Chris
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2 ... 34a254aa5b
if it doesnt work the subject was Texas State Airgun Silhouette Championships. It is a long read.
Chris
Chris ... thanks for the heads up ... I joined that forum and posted this response:
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I'm a 4-H coach in Valencia County, NM and got wind of this discussion over on the pilkguns board.
I'd like to present my view ... from the perspective not of a competitor, but of a coach of competitors who range from 8 to 18.
One of the three air rifle events shot at 4-H nationals is AR silhouette, so 4-H does have a stake in these rules.
I personally like the newer rule on the gas gun allowance for two reasons:
1) The primary reason is one of safety and useability combined. Many of my shooters under 12 are simply not capable of cocking a springer, lever or break barrel. In order to them to get one cocked, they must contort in their shooting position ands many times the barrels are pointing in directions other than up or downrange. I strongly discourage these types of guns when there are many smaller kids. Even some of the young ladies 13-16 will have issues here. To me it's simply not a safe atmosphere.
2) Although the "old" rules did allow CO2 12 gram cylinders, CO2, in my opinion is simply not suited for outdoor events ... at least here in the southwest. Once the temperature gets above about 89 degrees, the very high pressure inside a CO2 tank/cylinder is simply too much for the guns to operate the gas valve. As an example I simply cannot use a Crosman Challenger for outdoor 3-P competitions ... with our Daisy 888's I must only fill cylinders (2.5 oz) 1/3 - 1/2 full.
Again, In my opinion PCP guns are the only viable air rifle for the majority of my outdoor silhouette shooters.
====================
I'm a 4-H coach in Valencia County, NM and got wind of this discussion over on the pilkguns board.
I'd like to present my view ... from the perspective not of a competitor, but of a coach of competitors who range from 8 to 18.
One of the three air rifle events shot at 4-H nationals is AR silhouette, so 4-H does have a stake in these rules.
I personally like the newer rule on the gas gun allowance for two reasons:
1) The primary reason is one of safety and useability combined. Many of my shooters under 12 are simply not capable of cocking a springer, lever or break barrel. In order to them to get one cocked, they must contort in their shooting position ands many times the barrels are pointing in directions other than up or downrange. I strongly discourage these types of guns when there are many smaller kids. Even some of the young ladies 13-16 will have issues here. To me it's simply not a safe atmosphere.
2) Although the "old" rules did allow CO2 12 gram cylinders, CO2, in my opinion is simply not suited for outdoor events ... at least here in the southwest. Once the temperature gets above about 89 degrees, the very high pressure inside a CO2 tank/cylinder is simply too much for the guns to operate the gas valve. As an example I simply cannot use a Crosman Challenger for outdoor 3-P competitions ... with our Daisy 888's I must only fill cylinders (2.5 oz) 1/3 - 1/2 full.
Again, In my opinion PCP guns are the only viable air rifle for the majority of my outdoor silhouette shooters.
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Joel
Both rifles we used are .177.
Here are a couple more things to think about when weighing the pros and cons of each type of gun, Springer verses PCP. Keep in mind that I am by no means an expert, this is just my observation from the little testing that I have done.
Starting with the Springer’s on the pro side.
1. They do not have to be charged to 200 bar to shoot them. You do not have to carry a scuba tank or a hand pump to charge them.
2. The muzzle velocity is consistent + or - 4 fps shot for shot.
On the con side, Springer’s.
1. Can be difficult for the kids to cock. Will give them a work out in a 40 shot match. Like a 753 or an 853, 3P gun.
2. Recoil, The stock screws and scope mounts can and will loosen up and need to be checked while breaking in the gun. This is true of any gun that has recoil but when I was testing one prior to the 4-H nationals this was a factor. The scopes need to be air rifle rated.
Also the recoil can make the gun more difficult to shoot accurately.
(My opinion)
PCP guns pro side
1. Easy to load.
2. No recoil.
3. (My opinion) good balance
4. Accurate
PCP guns cons
1. Gun is not regulated. Muzzle velocity depletes a small amount each shot. I felt that the guns needed to be charged after 20 to 30 shots in order to maintain accuracy. I saw the groups start to open up after 30 shots (My son has a .22 cal PCP made by Logan that will maintain velocity and accuracy out to 60 shots.) From what I have seen and heard the .22s will give you more shots per charge.
2. Charging the gun on the line with a hand pump is a chore. I almost fell out in Missouri charging two guns inbetween stages on the first relay. You do not want to have the shooter do this because their heart rate will not come down for at least 30 minutes or more. (By the rule book you can not have a scuba tank on the line or in the team area)
3. Cost. You can spend as much on one of these as you would on a precision gun.
Both rifles we used are .177.
Here are a couple more things to think about when weighing the pros and cons of each type of gun, Springer verses PCP. Keep in mind that I am by no means an expert, this is just my observation from the little testing that I have done.
Starting with the Springer’s on the pro side.
1. They do not have to be charged to 200 bar to shoot them. You do not have to carry a scuba tank or a hand pump to charge them.
2. The muzzle velocity is consistent + or - 4 fps shot for shot.
On the con side, Springer’s.
1. Can be difficult for the kids to cock. Will give them a work out in a 40 shot match. Like a 753 or an 853, 3P gun.
2. Recoil, The stock screws and scope mounts can and will loosen up and need to be checked while breaking in the gun. This is true of any gun that has recoil but when I was testing one prior to the 4-H nationals this was a factor. The scopes need to be air rifle rated.
Also the recoil can make the gun more difficult to shoot accurately.
(My opinion)
PCP guns pro side
1. Easy to load.
2. No recoil.
3. (My opinion) good balance
4. Accurate
PCP guns cons
1. Gun is not regulated. Muzzle velocity depletes a small amount each shot. I felt that the guns needed to be charged after 20 to 30 shots in order to maintain accuracy. I saw the groups start to open up after 30 shots (My son has a .22 cal PCP made by Logan that will maintain velocity and accuracy out to 60 shots.) From what I have seen and heard the .22s will give you more shots per charge.
2. Charging the gun on the line with a hand pump is a chore. I almost fell out in Missouri charging two guns inbetween stages on the first relay. You do not want to have the shooter do this because their heart rate will not come down for at least 30 minutes or more. (By the rule book you can not have a scuba tank on the line or in the team area)
3. Cost. You can spend as much on one of these as you would on a precision gun.
Your Springer CONs are why I'm not of fan of them for my 4-Hers. All my kids like (love) our silhouette days. 8 to 16 years. No way can the younger/smallers ones handle these guns. recoil is way too much for the smaller ones to control ... even in prone 3-P.
The CONs on the PCPs are valid. Right now I have some XS-40's that I'm planning on reserving just for silhouette. I've found swapping sights is just WAAAAY too much hassle. The nice thing about these is the gas tube changes quickly and easily (read no tools here) ... they can take two to the line.
I do agree on the 888's past 36 yards. I've got 2 shooters that do very well with them on the turkeys, but the pellets seem to actually begin a corkscrew trajectory with flat pellets. I can see this when I shoot with the sun directly behind me. kinda interesting. I'm thinking that somewhere out there the pellet actually tumbles and the skirt catches air. What I'd give for some high speed cameras.......
The CONs on the PCPs are valid. Right now I have some XS-40's that I'm planning on reserving just for silhouette. I've found swapping sights is just WAAAAY too much hassle. The nice thing about these is the gas tube changes quickly and easily (read no tools here) ... they can take two to the line.
I do agree on the 888's past 36 yards. I've got 2 shooters that do very well with them on the turkeys, but the pellets seem to actually begin a corkscrew trajectory with flat pellets. I can see this when I shoot with the sun directly behind me. kinda interesting. I'm thinking that somewhere out there the pellet actually tumbles and the skirt catches air. What I'd give for some high speed cameras.......
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