Wow ... Randy placed this into another topic, but I would like to focus specifically on 4-H ... Here is Randy's post, and a question to all of us 4-H project leaders for shooting sports ... is there a way to get this program back on track?
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It must be nice where 4H in your state supports competitive shooting. Although, my county agent supports my efforts to provide competitive shooting opportunties his support is not shared by most 4H extension agents or 4H leaders in my state of Idaho. As a matter of fact my grant request was cut because and two members (4H leaders) of the state NRA grant committee said and I quote " (my club) has gone beyond what 4H warrents". We have trainers who come to teach others 4H leaders for the 4H shooting program saying that there is no place for competition in 4H. I hear the same stories from people in USA Shooting and the NRA.
My biggest conflict with these people is that one of the basic things they are supposed to be teaching is safety. Safety is something that has to be reinforced on a continous basis not two or three times a year, especially when you are dealing with very young kids. The 4H Shooting programs in most areas of the state are nothing more then plicking clubs. They have no real goals for kids who want to go beyond the plicking stage.
There are people in the 4H Organization that are taking on the politically correct attitude, whether they realize it or not, that if you have competition there will be losers and that would be bad for their self esteem. Well that is directly in conflict with the 4H teaching life skills. Life is about competition and to ignore that fact is not doing the kids any favor. Yes, I know that 4H has competition for their other programs in the state at the state fair where they handout ribbons and money, but not many of them complain about that type of competition. There is a hardcore element in the 4H that doesn't believe those type of competions should exist, but they don't say much about these events because they are so popular. The shooting programs in this state are so weak that it is a much easier program for these groups to limit. The attitude would be border line anti-gun except for the fact that they at least let the kids handle guns, but we don't want you to learn how to shot well.
Competition is what used to the one thing that made the shooting sports the most popular sport in the country. We turned out shooting athletes that were second to none in all the shooting sports. I only hope that things will turn around, but it must come from the National level to at least put out a policy that competitive shooting is to be promoted and not discouraged.
4-H Support
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
4-H SUPPORT
Randy, your post blew me away.
Question first .... what part of Idaho are you from? I hunt about a week each year down in SE Idaho (my brother lives in Pocatello) and I would have thought that 4-H Shooting Sports would be a big thing there.
I'm trying to get my brother to get his daughter involved in 4-H SS.
I've only been a project leader for a year now, specifically for Air Rifle. My frustration level is high as well, but I see the kids getting so much out of it, that it tempers my responses to the county agents (but not by much!)
I'm basically a royal PITA to them, but I keep hollering. For example this past week we had our NW district "contest" for novices and juniors. Each county was allowed to bring a team for each age division ... 4 members per team and we shot 3x10. That is 24 total targets. On 14 of my kids targets there are errors in the scoring, from simple additions, to the scorer gave the wrong score on the shot, to scorers leaving a bull out of the score. I have one target that has two bulls not scored and two miscored bulls! Luckely they must have screwed up everyone elses targets as the places did not change.
I too get the "we want it to be fun" spiel from my agents, but I flat refuse to accept this. A kid cannot be having fun when they shoot a 6 in prone. They must practice to do well and in their PC world hard work does not necessarily mean a reward that stands out above the others that show uo for a single day each year to shoot.
Next year, the district contest is in my county, and I flat will not be putting up with the shoddy officiating that I've seen from the state 4-H employees.
Many parents are fed up throughout my state (NM) and I think we just have to find the people who are serious enough to get out of the lawn chairs and do the work ourselves.
Never feel shy to confront the agents with the phrase "4-H is a Youth Development Program" ... it's not babysitting.
Joel Martin
Valencia County NM 4-H (parent) Project Leader
Air Rifle.
Question first .... what part of Idaho are you from? I hunt about a week each year down in SE Idaho (my brother lives in Pocatello) and I would have thought that 4-H Shooting Sports would be a big thing there.
I'm trying to get my brother to get his daughter involved in 4-H SS.
I've only been a project leader for a year now, specifically for Air Rifle. My frustration level is high as well, but I see the kids getting so much out of it, that it tempers my responses to the county agents (but not by much!)
I'm basically a royal PITA to them, but I keep hollering. For example this past week we had our NW district "contest" for novices and juniors. Each county was allowed to bring a team for each age division ... 4 members per team and we shot 3x10. That is 24 total targets. On 14 of my kids targets there are errors in the scoring, from simple additions, to the scorer gave the wrong score on the shot, to scorers leaving a bull out of the score. I have one target that has two bulls not scored and two miscored bulls! Luckely they must have screwed up everyone elses targets as the places did not change.
I too get the "we want it to be fun" spiel from my agents, but I flat refuse to accept this. A kid cannot be having fun when they shoot a 6 in prone. They must practice to do well and in their PC world hard work does not necessarily mean a reward that stands out above the others that show uo for a single day each year to shoot.
Next year, the district contest is in my county, and I flat will not be putting up with the shoddy officiating that I've seen from the state 4-H employees.
Many parents are fed up throughout my state (NM) and I think we just have to find the people who are serious enough to get out of the lawn chairs and do the work ourselves.
Never feel shy to confront the agents with the phrase "4-H is a Youth Development Program" ... it's not babysitting.
Joel Martin
Valencia County NM 4-H (parent) Project Leader
Air Rifle.
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randy8745
Re: 4-H SUPPORT
I live about 30 miles North of Pocatello. The 4H Programs are all very strong here with the exception of shooting. I have the only 4H program that teaches competitive shooting in this state. My local agent has been as supportive as much as possible, but I can't say the same about the Pocatello area. The people in that area are very vocal about not being a competitive program. They have kids come about twice a month for about three months and shot a few targets and that is pretty much it. I have a hard time understanding how this can develop into a program that is at least equal to the other programs such as livestock or even sewing. Pocatello has about 200 4H kids that compete in Rodeo, but you won't see these people complain about that because they would be rode out on a rail. The people don't seem to see the difference in that is why there are larger groups in the other programs because the kids are their to compete whether it is getting a ribbion at the fair or winning money from the sale of their animals or going out and getting a trophy for being could at rodeo. I have no problem if a group wants to have that attitude for their program, but don't try and exert your influence on somebody elses program.
I envy the Monatana Shooting 4H Programs they have hundreds of kids compete annually in their state 4H Shooting championships every year. The program has strong support from the top to bottom in that state. They even have money to give to groups that want to develop a shooting program.
I envy the Monatana Shooting 4H Programs they have hundreds of kids compete annually in their state 4H Shooting championships every year. The program has strong support from the top to bottom in that state. They even have money to give to groups that want to develop a shooting program.
jhmartin wrote:Randy, your post blew me away.
Question first .... what part of Idaho are you from? I hunt about a week each year down in SE Idaho (my brother lives in Pocatello) and I would have thought that 4-H Shooting Sports would be a big thing there.
I'm trying to get my brother to get his daughter involved in 4-H SS.
I've only been a project leader for a year now, specifically for Air Rifle. My frustration level is high as well, but I see the kids getting so much out of it, that it tempers my responses to the county agents (but not by much!)
I'm basically a royal PITA to them, but I keep hollering. For example this past week we had our NW district "contest" for novices and juniors. Each county was allowed to bring a team for each age division ... 4 members per team and we shot 3x10. That is 24 total targets. On 14 of my kids targets there are errors in the scoring, from simple additions, to the scorer gave the wrong score on the shot, to scorers leaving a bull out of the score. I have one target that has two bulls not scored and two miscored bulls! Luckely they must have screwed up everyone elses targets as the places did not change.
I too get the "we want it to be fun" spiel from my agents, but I flat refuse to accept this. A kid cannot be having fun when they shoot a 6 in prone. They must practice to do well and in their PC world hard work does not necessarily mean a reward that stands out above the others that show uo for a single day each year to shoot.
Next year, the district contest is in my county, and I flat will not be putting up with the shoddy officiating that I've seen from the state 4-H employees.
Many parents are fed up throughout my state (NM) and I think we just have to find the people who are serious enough to get out of the lawn chairs and do the work ourselves.
Never feel shy to confront the agents with the phrase "4-H is a Youth Development Program" ... it's not babysitting.
Joel Martin
Valencia County NM 4-H (parent) Project Leader
Air Rifle.
How to grow interest
I figure you are from the Blackfoot area. I go pheasant hunting on the river by Ferry Butte.
I understand your rodeo comment ... my brother's best friend is the ISU rodeo coach and they are serious about that
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All I can offer is what I've done ... it has seemed to work, but I sure hope others will chime in as well.
I've first looked at this as an opportunity for kids to perhaps gain an education. Now I know that only a very small percentage of shooters will get that chance, but I'm going to continue to believe that if the kids works hard at it, thay can achieve that goal. This attitude has attracted some parents to look at the sport.
As much as the parents want it, they are not the shooters, so the shooters must gain and then I have to hold their interest. That is what I figure my real job is. How to do that ....
1) Kids like to compete. Go around your area and find the high schools that have a JROTC program and visit the Senior Instructors. If they shoot, ask if they will invite you to their competitions. Our 4-H competitions in NM at the county, district, and state level are jokes. This may be the case where you are. Once the kids shoot in a registered match they see this. I have a super bunch of instructors in Albuquerque that are devoted to kids. You will be the cheerleader here. Ask if they will shoot an "At Large" division ... if so you may have to go "begging" to raise some funds for ribbons, medals or trophies (Kids really like these!) I tell my kids that their scores will NOT be as good as the JROTC shooters, but they strive to prove me wrong!
2) Promote, promote, promote. If you can take pictures and have some of your kids be the reporter, send the stories into the local papers. Especially is you win an "At Large" division. Who cares if you are the only team entered in the division. That's not your problem that other counties teams or clubs did not come. The kids don't care. Put a trophy on a table and gather them around for a team picture. Include all who shot in the match in the picture. I promise you will have interest if those "articles" and pics show up in the paper. (The son of our 4-H archery coach had his dad bring him to our AR practice after our first article showed up in the local paper ... he's a pretty good shot too!)
3) Contact Martin Edmondson at USA Shooting, and then get the 4-H Passport materials. Again, more "trinkets", but they are awarded at certain levels of accomplishment. I see the kids work their hardest when they are only one or two points away from the next pin. All of this costs some money (In the first 6 months of this year, I've spent about $300 of personal money on USAS pins. My "coaches coach", Bill Barker (a MCJROTC Sr Instructor) is now having me go out in my area and talk to the VFW, American Legion, and any others that may donate some cash to purchase these. Maybe even award the pins at the organization's meeting so they can see the happy smiling faces and get the "Thank You's" from the kids themselves.
4) I'm obsessive compulsive. I hold three practices a week. Sunday afternoons, and then Tues and Thurs evenings. I'm there 3-4 hours each time. (I do love it, and my wife says I'm in a much better mood). I don't require that the kids make all of them ... I'm just available at those times. The better shooters come more often, period. When I first started out there were, and I'm sure will be again, times when I was the only one there with the traps set up. Take a book, maybe someone will show late. I give those times an hour, then I pack it up and go home. Make sure it's a good book so you don't beat yourself up and tell yourself how dumb you are.
5) I did not think it was such a big deal early on (I've been at this only 10 months now, so all this may be BS, but it's working here), but I think it is pretty important you find a place you can shoot. I'm VERY fortunate that my County Fair Board allows us the use of the fair building for no charge. They tell me that the more I'm there, the less vandalism they have. The building has no heat in the winter, an old swamp cooler for the summer, and the toilets are 100yds away, but I've got tape on the floor and a place to store the traps, lights, and our "custom" ;-) shooting stands. I've chatted with other coaches here in NM that their fair boards won't give them the time of day. Check those high schools that shoot. Check any National Guard Armory that is near, Elks hall, whereever you can fit in a few lanes (I shoot 6) .... I know near is a relative term ... I drive 15 miles to our practices. Next week after practice, we are painting the fair's chicken shed. I figure for the $0.00 they charge us to use the building, this is a community service project for the team. Good time to hold a cookout too!
6) Another thing to hit the JROTC instructors with. You have access to 9 thru 14 year olds ... probably in their school districts. They can help to make this a feeder program for them. You'll bump into two types of JRTOC instructors .... those that like to leave work at 2:30PM, and those that you will be able to call anytime for advice. Not much you can do about the first type ... they are probably shooting WalMart pellet guns anyway.
7) Learn the rules. If necessary get the certs that will teach you something. I'm NOT a JROTC instructor, but I have the JROTC Marksmanship Instructor Certification, the NM State 4-H cert (almost worthless IMHO), and I'm going up to C Springs for the USAS Coaching Clinic in October. (Contact Martin at USAS here too). I'm not sure if this really helps, or if it another manifestation of my OC behaviors ... I think it helps me, but I would, wouldn't I?
Anyone else that has other ideas or more info, please chime in.
I understand your rodeo comment ... my brother's best friend is the ISU rodeo coach and they are serious about that
==========================================
All I can offer is what I've done ... it has seemed to work, but I sure hope others will chime in as well.
I've first looked at this as an opportunity for kids to perhaps gain an education. Now I know that only a very small percentage of shooters will get that chance, but I'm going to continue to believe that if the kids works hard at it, thay can achieve that goal. This attitude has attracted some parents to look at the sport.
As much as the parents want it, they are not the shooters, so the shooters must gain and then I have to hold their interest. That is what I figure my real job is. How to do that ....
1) Kids like to compete. Go around your area and find the high schools that have a JROTC program and visit the Senior Instructors. If they shoot, ask if they will invite you to their competitions. Our 4-H competitions in NM at the county, district, and state level are jokes. This may be the case where you are. Once the kids shoot in a registered match they see this. I have a super bunch of instructors in Albuquerque that are devoted to kids. You will be the cheerleader here. Ask if they will shoot an "At Large" division ... if so you may have to go "begging" to raise some funds for ribbons, medals or trophies (Kids really like these!) I tell my kids that their scores will NOT be as good as the JROTC shooters, but they strive to prove me wrong!
2) Promote, promote, promote. If you can take pictures and have some of your kids be the reporter, send the stories into the local papers. Especially is you win an "At Large" division. Who cares if you are the only team entered in the division. That's not your problem that other counties teams or clubs did not come. The kids don't care. Put a trophy on a table and gather them around for a team picture. Include all who shot in the match in the picture. I promise you will have interest if those "articles" and pics show up in the paper. (The son of our 4-H archery coach had his dad bring him to our AR practice after our first article showed up in the local paper ... he's a pretty good shot too!)
3) Contact Martin Edmondson at USA Shooting, and then get the 4-H Passport materials. Again, more "trinkets", but they are awarded at certain levels of accomplishment. I see the kids work their hardest when they are only one or two points away from the next pin. All of this costs some money (In the first 6 months of this year, I've spent about $300 of personal money on USAS pins. My "coaches coach", Bill Barker (a MCJROTC Sr Instructor) is now having me go out in my area and talk to the VFW, American Legion, and any others that may donate some cash to purchase these. Maybe even award the pins at the organization's meeting so they can see the happy smiling faces and get the "Thank You's" from the kids themselves.
4) I'm obsessive compulsive. I hold three practices a week. Sunday afternoons, and then Tues and Thurs evenings. I'm there 3-4 hours each time. (I do love it, and my wife says I'm in a much better mood). I don't require that the kids make all of them ... I'm just available at those times. The better shooters come more often, period. When I first started out there were, and I'm sure will be again, times when I was the only one there with the traps set up. Take a book, maybe someone will show late. I give those times an hour, then I pack it up and go home. Make sure it's a good book so you don't beat yourself up and tell yourself how dumb you are.
5) I did not think it was such a big deal early on (I've been at this only 10 months now, so all this may be BS, but it's working here), but I think it is pretty important you find a place you can shoot. I'm VERY fortunate that my County Fair Board allows us the use of the fair building for no charge. They tell me that the more I'm there, the less vandalism they have. The building has no heat in the winter, an old swamp cooler for the summer, and the toilets are 100yds away, but I've got tape on the floor and a place to store the traps, lights, and our "custom" ;-) shooting stands. I've chatted with other coaches here in NM that their fair boards won't give them the time of day. Check those high schools that shoot. Check any National Guard Armory that is near, Elks hall, whereever you can fit in a few lanes (I shoot 6) .... I know near is a relative term ... I drive 15 miles to our practices. Next week after practice, we are painting the fair's chicken shed. I figure for the $0.00 they charge us to use the building, this is a community service project for the team. Good time to hold a cookout too!
6) Another thing to hit the JROTC instructors with. You have access to 9 thru 14 year olds ... probably in their school districts. They can help to make this a feeder program for them. You'll bump into two types of JRTOC instructors .... those that like to leave work at 2:30PM, and those that you will be able to call anytime for advice. Not much you can do about the first type ... they are probably shooting WalMart pellet guns anyway.
7) Learn the rules. If necessary get the certs that will teach you something. I'm NOT a JROTC instructor, but I have the JROTC Marksmanship Instructor Certification, the NM State 4-H cert (almost worthless IMHO), and I'm going up to C Springs for the USAS Coaching Clinic in October. (Contact Martin at USAS here too). I'm not sure if this really helps, or if it another manifestation of my OC behaviors ... I think it helps me, but I would, wouldn't I?
Anyone else that has other ideas or more info, please chime in.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Re: 4-H SUPPORT
Hi Joeljhmartin wrote:Randy, your post blew me away.
CUT CUT....
I too get the "we want it to be fun" spiel from my agents, but I flat refuse to accept this. A kid cannot be having fun when they shoot a 6 in prone. They must practice to do well and in their PC world hard work does not necessarily mean a reward that stands out above the others that show uo for a single day each year to shoot.
CUT CUT ...
Never feel shy to confront the agents with the phrase "4-H is a Youth Development Program" ... it's not babysitting.
Joel Martin
Valencia County NM 4-H (parent) Project Leader
Air Rifle.
We have a Sporter team and two single Precision Shooters going to the NRA Nationals and one kid going to 4-H Nationals from Sedgwick County. Our Agent is very much into the 4-H must be fun, and for all kids. We have to put "the fine print" on our schedules stating that contests are not mandatory. Our Shotgun team went to the ATA nationals last year, but under the Kansas Trap Association banner. Our County's shotgun team doesn't understand that they're in 4-H and it annoys our agent A LOT.
If I get all bent again, I'll write up what our 2004 4-H State Smallbore Rifle and Pistol match was like. O.K. I'll start anyway. I arrived at 8:00 PM to help out. I met an old guy at the gate, and asked which range the smallbore Rifle was being shot on. He didn't know. I didn't think anything about that until I found out later that he was the State Shooting Sports Chairman.
I found one of the two (2) TWO state smallbore directors (both in charge) and asked which range we were using and she pointed one out. I asked what distance we were shooting at and she said probably 50 feet since she had brought 50 foot targets. No one asked her to and she was in fact told that she didn't need to bring anything. I had brought 50 yard targets, and no one even know I was showing up, OR that I had targets.
The other state smallbore director and I went out to find target backers while she measured the distance using MY tape measure (I didn't even tell anyone I was coming). The State 4-H guy (paid) didn't have any cardboard, so we dumpster dived and found enough to have backers.
My story is that our state 4-H match committee treats each match like a religious event. Large groups of kids show up and wonderous volunteers provide anything necessary for the match (all without planning). Remember the Loaves and the Fishes.....
Mike
I can only smile ... you sure you don't live in NM?????
Well I guess it's good to find out that we're not the only ones.
Our County has a Smallbore Pistol team and a Compound Archery team in Missouri this week. The county air rifle team were all 14 year olds (NM not quite in sync with nationals) and even though they won they can't go.
I do want the kids to have fun, but just flinging pellets and not hitting the bulls can't be fun ... I interpret his statement to mean "We don't really want to get too serious about this, because it's more work for us to do it correctly". I do realize they have many other responsibilities, but all they have to do is ask for help and not act like the boss peacocks
Well I guess it's good to find out that we're not the only ones.
Our County has a Smallbore Pistol team and a Compound Archery team in Missouri this week. The county air rifle team were all 14 year olds (NM not quite in sync with nationals) and even though they won they can't go.
I do want the kids to have fun, but just flinging pellets and not hitting the bulls can't be fun ... I interpret his statement to mean "We don't really want to get too serious about this, because it's more work for us to do it correctly". I do realize they have many other responsibilities, but all they have to do is ask for help and not act like the boss peacocks