how should I start out with 10meter olympic style shooting?

[James]

Any suggestions on starting out, equipment ect. Do most people generally shoot only rifle, or pistol, or do they do both?

[Jay V]

Any suggestions on starting out, equipment ect. Do most people generally shoot only rifle, or pistol, or do they do both?

The best way to start is to find a club in your area. Try the locator on the CMP site at http://www.odcmp.com. The NRA (http://www.nrahq.com) and your state NRA association are other places to try, as is USA Shooting (http://www.usashooting.com).

If you are new to shooting, it would be a good idea to try both air rifle and air pistol before choosing one.

3-Position (3P) air rifle is by far the more popular. Junior air pistol is just beginning to catch on. 3P Sporter air rifle is the entry level, though true "Olympic-style" air rifle is shot standing only (not 3P). Best to start in 3P sporter in my opinion - worked for Ryan Tanoue.

For sporter 3P air rifle, a Daisy 888 is your best choice in my opinion. Our club has 888s and XS-40 Valiants, and I believe the 888 is the better gun - especially at about 1/2 the price. Other necessary items are a 1 1/4" web (cloth) sling and handstop, a decent glove (fingerless - www.monardusa.com ), safety glasses, ear plugs, decent flat-soled shoes, 2 sweatshirts, some kind of prone mat, an "offhand" stand (for resting your rifle in standing position), a scope and scope stand (12-20 power, 45 degree angled eyepiece), some type of kneeling roll (Monard also or make one) - that's about all I can think of right now.

Let me know if you have more question.

Jay V
IL
http://www.aiac-airguns.org

[James]

I saw the Tau 200 junior for 250 over on aoa.
I have a 953, but length of pull is very short, the trigger is terrible 6lbs, and it's not accurate at all ( I think i have a bad one)

I've done a bit of airgun shooting, i have a magnum breakbarrel, a 953, and a pistol. I'm not so good with the pistol, i'm not sure if its because of the gun, or what. But I think i want to go rifle.

How important is it that i start with a club? Is there good texts on form ect?

I've done some 10 meter shooting using the 10meter target. my shots are all over the black with an rws 94. And the recoil of the spring gun may be limiting my progress.

What kind of accuracy/groups should i expect to be getting? i'm 16 btw, and have been shooting for a couple of months.

[Jay V]

I saw the Tau 200 junior for 250 over on aoa.
I have a 953, but length of pull is very short, the trigger is terrible 6lbs, and it's not accurate at all ( I think i have a bad one)

I've done a bit of airgun shooting, i have a magnum breakbarrel, a 953, and a pistol. I'm not so good with the pistol, i'm not sure if its because of the gun, or what. But I think i want to go rifle.

How important is it that i start with a club? Is there good texts on form ect?

I've done some 10 meter shooting using the 10meter target. my shots are all over the black with an rws 94. And the recoil of the spring gun may be limiting my progress.

What kind of accuracy/groups should i expect to be getting? i'm 16 btw, and have been shooting for a couple of months.

Hi James,

Our club started out with TAUs, but soon found out that they are decent guns but not the best choice for 3P. They are not legal as a sporter gun, and not quite up to precision level. The 888 comes with spacers to increase the pull, but the trigger does need some work. There is info available on how to get it close to the min 1 1/2 pounds legal for sporter. It's worth doing when you get going.

As a junior (through age 20 basically), you have a much bigger competition base than adults do. The 953 is OK, and can be used for 3P, but an 888 is a better choice (it's CO2, so you do need some additional equipment). A CO2 or compressed air powered gun doesn't make you "break" position to cock the gun like a pneumatic - that's the advantage.

The advantage of a club is that most of the equipment may be there for you to use. You will also get coaching, and be able to watch how other, hopefully successful, shooters train and compete. You can do it on your own, but a club will make it a lot easier and productive.

When you are starting out (we start in prone), just work to hold the black, then shoot 10-shot groups on each bull until you can cover the majority of the group with a dime. Don't worry about using the sling right away, but you will want to learn how to use it before long (it will help you a lot when you get it right). Kneeling is less stable than prone, and takes some practice. The sling gets more important. Standing takes more practice, and should be the focus of the majority of your training eventually.

The CMP has a basic 3P air rifle manual that spells things out clearly. I believe it may be called a coaching guide, as it is intended for coaches teaching 3P. It's worth getting as good beginning reference. It will get you started correctly and save you a lot of trouble and frustration.

Jay V

[James]

Well I can get started with my 953, untill i find a good deal on another rifle.

I'm leery about spending 300 dollars on a gun that uses the same action/reciever as my 953. I spent 40 dollars on the 953.

I'll have to get it to group first, I think it may be the sights...loose parts etc.

Why is the tau not legal as a sporter gun.

What about the fwb 300's and diana 75? I think they can be had around the $300's

[mikeschroeder]

Well I can get started with my 953, untill i find a good deal on another rifle.

ANSWER: If I remember correctly, you're using buckhorn sights on a 953 instead of Aperture sights right? You REALLY, REALLY, (repeat a few more times) need Aperture sights to shoot accurately.

I'm leery about spending 300 dollars on a gun that uses the same action/reciever as my 953. I spent 40 dollars on the 953.

I'll have to get it to group first, I think it may be the sights...loose parts etc.

ANSWER: It doesn't use the same action / receiver, you have a pump gun, the 888 is a CO2 gun and is a lot different. The Trigger is similar, but yours (6 pounds??) needs work.



Why is the tau not legal as a sporter gun.

ANSWER: You really need a copy of the rules, a sporter gun and a precision gun are VERY different, mainly in stock shape. Basicaly a precision stock is adjustable in every way that helps in achieving a perfect position in standing, kneeling, and prone. In precision you can change stock adjustments between positions, not true in Sporter.

What about the fwb 300's and diana 75? I think they can be had around the $300's

ANSWER: Haven't heard of them, BUT a new precision air rifle is about $1400 minimum, so a $300 dollar gun would be either very old (outdated), in very bad shape, or stolen. You're competing with people who are shooting great guns, so you need to get yourself as much help as possible.


Another place to find shooters is 4-H, we're not exactly the olympics, but we do shoot a lot of air rifle and air pistol.
Mike
Wichita KS

[James]

What apeture sight do you recommend? Are the gamo's good?

The fwb 300s and diana/rws 75 are older match rifles. I dont believe they have adjustable stocks.

Where can I find a copy of the rules.

The 888 looks like it shares the reciever/trigger group of the 953?

Is the stock the only reason the tau 200 not legal as a sporter gun, I dont know very much about the rules, but perhaps could the stock be changed to a non adjustable one?

Thanks

[Jay V]

What apeture sight do you recommend? Are the gamo's good?

The fwb 300s and diana/rws 75 are older match rifles. I dont believe they have adjustable stocks.

Where can I find a copy of the rules.

The 888 looks like it shares the reciever/trigger group of the 953?

Is the stock the only reason the tau 200 not legal as a sporter gun, I dont know very much about the rules, but perhaps could the stock be changed to a non adjustable one?

Thanks

If you want to compete, and learn to shoot air rifle, your best bet is to start at the entry level - 3P sporter. Sporter is restricted to certain guns (888 and Valiant really) and the special shooting gear is not allowed. Any other gun is automatically a precision gun - even the Diana or RWS. You then would be competing against top-level shooters with top-level equipment. Another big factor in 3P precision is the cost of the special gear required. Custom-fitted jacket, pants, boots, and even shooting underwear are the norm - no place to start for a new competitor.

888s are used by most of the top sporter teams, and are certainly worth the price (which I thought was about $250 if you look around). They shares some internal parts with the 953, but are more target oriented and ready to go (aperture sights) for the most part. The National Three-Position Air Rifle Rules are on the CMP site (www.odcmp.com).

4H is also a great organization to start with if you have one in your area.


Jay V

[mikeschroeder]

Hi again

What apeture sight do you recommend? Are the gamo's good?

ANSWER: If you do a search on this site, you'll find varying answers, but I don't know of any other sporter sights that you can use.... Somebody help out on this, because we could use all of the help we can get.

The fwb 300s and diana/rws 75 are older match rifles. I dont believe they have adjustable stocks.

ANSWER, it's not JUST the adjustments, it's also a pistol grip type stock etc.

Where can I find a copy of the rules.

ANSWER: CMP Site has them online I think.

The 888 looks like it shares the reciever/trigger group of the 953?

ANSWER: yes it DOES look that way, but if you take both guns apart, you'll find that looks are VERY decieving. The 953 is a pump gun, 888 is a CO2, the trigger group is in the same housing, but the trigger on the 888 is adjustable, the x53's it isn't. Mainly the bolt if the same, as is the housing, internals are VERY different.

Is the stock the only reason the tau 200 not legal as a sporter gun, I dont know very much about the rules, but perhaps could the stock be changed to a non adjustable one?

ANSWER (short answer) NO. The Tau 200 is not legal because of the stock, but it's not worth anyone's time and effort to take the action from a Tau and make a sporter style stock with it. WHY??? Because the 888, Crosman 2000, and Avanti Valiant (all sporters) are nearly as accurate from the bench as an Anschutz 2002 CA. In short, its seriously NOT WORTH it. Most 888's I've checked out will shoot 10's all day, same with the Valiant. I haven't had accuracy problems with a Crosman, but we had trouble with the CO2.

Mike
Wichita KS

[mikeschroeder]

Another big factor in 3P precision is the cost of the special gear required. Custom-fitted jacket, pants, boots, and even shooting underwear are the norm - no place to start for a new competitor.

Hi again

Quoting Jay:

Jacket = $200
Pants = $150
Boots = $100
Underwear = $100 (upper level)
Shooting Glasses = $100

I added the glasses since a lot of the precision shooter's I've seen use Knoblochs or something similar. I'm buying some for Sporter just so I'm not staring at my nosepiece.

In general, you also need a shooting mat, Kneeling Roll (most important piece of equipment after the gun), Scope, Scope stand, offhand stand, and roll around cart to carry this stuff. Many clubs will have this stuff for either rent, or borrowing.

Mike

[James]

Thankyou very much.

I found a daisy 888 on classifields for 200.

My 953 is 6.5 lbs, It seems a bit light, Can weights be added to bring the 888 from the 6.9 to the 7.5 limit?

Is the 888 trigger adjustable for travel or weight?

[Jay V]

Thankyou very much.

I found a daisy 888 on classifields for 200.

My 953 is 6.5 lbs, It seems a bit light, Can weights be added to bring the 888 from the 6.9 to the 7.5 limit?

Is the 888 trigger adjustable for travel or weight?

Buy the used one for $200 if you can't find a new one for around $250 anymore. Remember, you will need a Daisy 888 fill adapter and a 10 or 15 pound CO2 tank (with syphon tube) to go with the 888. The 888 works on what is known as "bulk-fill" CO2 (filling from a large tank).

The 888 is heavier than the 953, and doesn't need extra weight to be very close to 7.5 pounds when the cylinder is full.

There is an adjustment on the trigger, but not enough to do what you need to get close to 2 pounds. It will need to come apart and have a few mods done on the trigger mechanism.

Best of luck.

Let us know if you have any other questions or run into problems.


Jay V

[Jamesn]

Would the xs40 be practical in precision 3p? I was thinking maybe it could be used for both sporter and precision if I decide to switch over.

[Jay V]

Would the xs40 be practical in precision 3p? I was thinking maybe it could be used for both sporter and precision if I decide to switch over.

Not really. If you were ready to make the switch to precision you would want a true Olympic-quality air rifle. The Valiant would be hard pressed to produce the scores you would be looking for.

Buy an 888 and sell it when you are ready to move up to precision. The amount you would lose is really nothing in the big picture.

Plan to have about $2000 available to move up to precision, that's not including the mat, roll, stands, scope, etc. that you would already have.

You can go a long way in sporter before needing to move to precision.

If you don't have top-notch sporter scores, you won't have top-notch precision score either. Sporter stresses and rewards mastering the basics. Shoot local sporter competitons, state championships, sectionals, and as many other competitons as possible. Try to earn your way onto your state team for the NRA National Junior Air Gun Team Championship - after that, move into precision.

Students that move into precision in our club are required to have a minimum of 1 national championship experience.


Jay V

[RobStubbs]

What apeture sight do you recommend? Are the gamo's good?

The fwb 300s and diana/rws 75 are older match rifles. I dont believe they have adjustable stocks.

The fwb 300's are fairly popular in the UK (I have one). They are very old but still good guns, they are not adjustable but do have a pretty good pistol grip. I would suggest that these guns are very good to learn with (especially standing) but are not ideal for serious competitve use once you want to improve.

Perhaps aim to get one for the first year or so and then upgrade. You will also have a much better idea as to what better gun you'd like and how it should handle. Also the fwb 300 will be worth pretty much the same amount as you paid for it.

Rob.

[mikeschroeder]

....

You can go a long way in sporter before needing to move to precision.

....
Jay V

Hi

I agree with everything Jay V wrote, but would add that you do need to switch to Precision at or before 16 (Junior Year) in order to be seen and be considered for an NCAA scholarship. Don't know how serious the original poster was....

Mike
Wichita KS

[James]

I'm not looking for the scholarship. Probably to late as i'm 16 already. As long as I keep my grades up, I have one.

I just want to get to the competetive level in local/regional

The 888 sounds like a good idea.

What about junior pistol? I read there wasn't much in this area.

[jhmartin]

This is a super thread ... Jay V is one of my mentors, and you cannot go wrong heeding his advice ... I was originally looking at the Avanti x53 style guns to save a bit of money, but I now am absolutely sold on the 888s. Our 4-H county is now shooting 11 of them. We use no other gun

I had lunch with another of my mentors yesterday, who is on the Air Rifle council and I asked him about the Tau-200. Basically, it does not have an ambidexterious stock, and it's never been formally submitted to the council. Same with the Chinese guns (TF79).

When you look at the 888, it's cost, and it's accuracy it will be hard for manufacturers to beat this gun. I think the barrel is the key here. (When/if you decide to sell it give me a holler!)

Some other items Jay and others have gotten us to get with these rifles:

1) 1.25" Rifle sling from Champions Choice (#M2213 @ $10)
1a) Find some big quilting pins or baby diaper pins ... you know you can't find the diaper pins anymore!!!
2) Quick disconnect/handstop from CC (#CC4748 @ $15)
if you want a bit better rear sight and a front that will take 18mm inserts
3) Daisy 753 front sight (#5901 @ $15)
4) Daisy FS aperture set (#168968 @ $3)
4) GAMO Diopter (not the Daisy Avanti !!!) $80 from Brenzovich.com

If you really "soup-up" this gun as above it's only about $340. I've found that you don't really need the GAMO sights until the kids are into the 90's

You can easily hang weights from the rail to bring it up to 7.5 lbs (rule 4.2.2)


Highly recommended
5) Youth Shooting glove from Monard (~$20)
6) Kneeling Roll from Monard ($14-$25)
7) Shooting mat (we use the non-slip "yoga" mats from Walmart) (~$17)
8) Foam Ear Plugs ... kids like to chat away ... amazing how much more they concentrate when they cannot hear the shooter next to them ... has nothing to do with hearing protection at the air gun levels
9) 2 sweatshirts ... I like the heavy non-stretch types like a Carhart
10) <for 4-H> two pair of shooting glasses (one dark-for outdoors, another clear or yellow for indoors)


If you want to fill the rifle
A) Daisy Refill Station (#5861 @~$35)
B) extra 888 CO2 cylinder (#5862 @~$30)
C) Bulk CO2 cylinder ... I've got a 20lb cylinder with dip tube and it cost me $100 filled. I need a refill about once every 8 weeks @~$20, but I've got 10-14 shooters 3 times per week

[James]

I found a 4-H program in my area. What kind of activities do you do in 4-h?

I think i'm going to do 4-H before i go out and buy a rifle. My friend is in rotc but they dont have a team next year, so he is going to join too.

[jhmartin]

James ... a lot of it depends what your county does and how old you are.

4-H is divided into 4 main age groups 8 & under is cloverbuds, 9-11 ages are Novice, then 12-14 is Junior and above is Senior ... some states may adjust these ages very slightly.

The 4-H shooting sports have Air Rifle & Pistol, Smallbore (.22) Rifle & Pistol, Muzzleloading, Shotgun, Archery, and Hunting Skills.

In my county Novices and Juniors are limited to >>competing<< in only Air Rifle and Archery, but other counties in NM also have them shooting smallbore & muzzleloaders ... it will mainly depend on the extension agents as well as parent involvement. My own kids >>participate<< in all Shooting disciplines except muzzleloading (for now)

As the Air Rifle coach/project leader for my county here in NM, I like to have all my shooters also involved in Archery as well to help develop some upper body strength. (that is a different coach/project leader)

Contact your county extension agent. Start looking at: http://www.4h-usa.org and then dig down to your local level and give them a call.

4-H is not just Agricultural type programs, it is a complete Youth-Development program ... most people are amazed at the number of project areas for the youth.

Since I live in a rural area my kids do Horse, Goat, Shooting Sports, Baking, Dog, Fashion (I have all girls), and talent type projects. You will find many programs to interest you!