RWS 22lr ammo question

[Brian James]

I wonder if anyone can tell me the difference is between RWS Target pistol match 22LR ammo, vs. R50, vs. Target pistol. I know the R50 is the superior ammo, but I’m curious to know if they have similar characteristics, i.e. velocity etc.. or what differentiates them? I’ve looked at the RWS website but haven’t found a breakdown of how they are different or similar

I’m being to wonder if Target pistol is the poor quality Target pistol Match, .

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Brian

[Walter]

I don't think this answers your question, but http://www.22ammo.com/22ammo.html has weights and velocities of many 22 rounds. The problem is I didn't see info on RWS pistol match or target pistol.

[Albert]

I do not have hard evedence but from the exchange in emails I had with Lapua and Eley recently about rimrhickness I had the impression that lots of different types/names of ammo like:
Lapua Master, Lapua pistol King and Lapua Club are the same cartridges but with increasing tolerances.
Everything that is not within the Master tolerances is put into Pistol King and the ammo that is outside the tolerances of Pistol King goes in the box of Club etc.

Albert
(The Netherlands)

[Albert]

Looking on the Eley site in the UK I found the following lines:

"All ELEY competition rifle cartridges shown above are loaded to the same nominal ballistic level allowing shooters to move up the quality scale for important competitions or as their performance improves with minimum sight adjustment.



Bullet weight - grams
(grains) 2.59 (40) Velocity - m/sec (ft/sec)
muzzle - 331 (1085)
50m (50yds) - 305 (1006)
100m (100yds) - 284 (941)
Energy - Kg.m (ft.lb)
muzzle - 14.5 (105)
50m (50yds) - 12.3 (90)
100m (100yds) - 10.6 (79) Mid Range Trajectory - cm (in)
50m (50yds) - 3.2 (1.1)
100m (100yds) - 14.0 (4.5)

"
Looks like the are the same cartridges but with increasing tolerances.
Albert
(The Netherlands)

[Brian James]

Thank you for the replies, I've email RWS and when I get a reply I'll post it on here.

In the meantime if anyone can add anything I would love to hear your opinion.

Brian

[terrypchan]

In my search for a good practice round for a Morini CM84E free pistol, I've settled on RWS Target Rifle. Here is a good web page that lists some relevant info on several brands of good ammo. The usual disclaimers apply, I'm not connected with the retailer in any way, other than being a satifisfied customer, etc.

https://www.championshooters.com/ammo-ssl.htm

Scroll down to RWS and follow the link to this page:

https://www.championshooters.com/rws-ammo.html

Rim thickness was the deciding factor (besides price). Several of the manufacturer's ammo had rim thicknesses that while consistent in size, were just too thick and would not allow the CM84E to lock and load the round.

RWS ammo fits many finicky pistols as the rim thickness is around 1.04mm. The Eley ammo is around 1.06mm and is a little too tight and the loading lever had to be worked several times to get the round to load. Lapua (recommend by Morini) is also 1.04mm but is VERY expensive, and of course its shoot great! SK also was 1.06mm, so a little troublesome. All the USA made ammo like, Federal, Winchester, Remington, CCI, and even Aguila (yes, I know Aguila is made in Mexico) have rims that are too large and will not load at all in the CM84E.

Measurements were made by me with a metric micrometer, so your mileage may vary....

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Hi-Owners of CM84E-free pistol-are there any ammo problems loading and locking,with any brand of ammo??In other words-is it finiky about certain brands of 22 ammo??Thank you.Erod

[Mark Briggs]

Just a quick comment on the CM84E and its loading...

I've shot a fairly wide range of ammo in my CM84E, and have done so with a variety of breechblocks and barrels installed. The tolerance on Morini factory-manufactured barrels and breechblocks seems to be very good, allowing them to be "mixed and matched" very easily.

I've found no real trouble loading just about any ammo in the CM84E, although some brands do offer their own particular challenges. The worst of these is Eley. I say this because with Eley Target Pistol I have to use my thumb to push the cartridge fully into the chamber. This causes the rifling to engrave on the bullet. If I don't do this I can't close the breech.

Some brands of ammo (like Remington Target, Lapua and RWS) load with varying ease in the pistol, and their relative ease of loading appears to be dependant on the relative length of the cartridge from its base to the point where the bullet reaches bore diameter. Contrary to what one contributor has mentioned above, the difficulty in chambering Eley does not appear to be related to its rim thickness but rather to the bullet profile. The CM84 design does not provide capability for the breech block to force a round into the chamber (as do the TOZ or Hammerli 150/160 series pistols), so if one doesn't manually seat the cartridge then, as the loading lever is moved toward the closed position, the breech block will actually move downward, rather than upward into the closed position. If this happens, push the cartridge further into the chamber with your thumb and you'll likely have no further troubles.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Hey Mark-Your answer sounds more logical to me.I am going to use Federal 711-I'll see if it works tomorrow.Thanks Erod.

[PaulT]

I concur with Mark, the only brand we had issues with was Eley Pistol and required the thumb seating. All Lapua/S&K/Eley were fine.

Suggest you consider Lapua Pistol King for 50m training or competition in your evaluation. Following our tests, for the cost, it represents exceptional value for money, accuracy and tolerance over a range of pistols. I am not an employee or sponsored, just satisfied customer! I was getting 19mm (best) to 24mm (worst) groups at 50m from test rig; the 40 shot group easily held the X ring. Batch selected Eley beat this but not by a massive margin.

Hope you get time to enjoy fruits of your research.

[Alex]

I guess this is as good a place as any to answer all those nay sayers who downplay the value of Rim Thickness Gauges.

While shooting Smallbore Silhouette I would turn some ordinary "standard velocity ammo" into "near match ammo" by sorting ammo by rim thicknesses. I found that with some brands of ammo it eliminated flyers at the benchrest so much so that I was forced to take responsibility for those that I shot (flyers) in matches just as if I had paid big bucks for my ammo.
Admittedly there is some ammo (even lots of the same brand) that are just not meant to shoot tight groups. There's much more to accuracy than rim thickness. I still strive to shoot "Match" ammo in matches.

When I can afford the best match ammo to shoot ALL the time I will gladly retire my thickness guage. Until then the confidence that shooting sorted ammo in practice gives me is worth the effort.

Hold center,

Alex

[Dennis]

I've shot about a case of Wolf Match thru my CM84E. Shoots well, groups well, loads without a problem. But, after 4 or 5 rounds on a clean chamber it will not eject fully.

The more you shoot the worst it gets. After 20 rounds or so it only extracts about a couple of mm's. They come out easily with the finger nail but !!!
Does anyone else have this problem with any other brands of ammo????

I beleive that it is a Wolf thing since it isn't much better in my TOZ.
I would attribute it to either softer or thinner brass.
Any other opinions???

[aRonin]

Re consistency in ejection, I've noticed that when I try Wolf "Match Target", SK "Match" or "Pistol Match" the brass spent cartridge had to be helped out with finger nail & some more considerable coaxing than with the Eley "Pistol Target" (yellow box). With the Eley, spent cartridge can be freely ejected. BTW, I use a Hammerli 152.

[zoned]

Interesting comments. Wolf Match Target seats fully without needing to thumb it down, and ejects flawlessly in my Hammerli 160, even with extended use between cleanings (1K rounds).

I have experienced some brands of ammunition that needed an assist to fully chamber it (typically sporting goods store stuff). The problem appears to be caused by longer bullet length that makes the bullet ledge reach into the rifling. As well, there often seems to be a variation in the hardness of bullet lead between brands. I suspect it's not always pure lead, but possibly an alloy using a bit of antimony or other metal.

/Jon
http://tinyurl.com/7qc3o

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Have tried Federal 22 target(red box)-711b-so far no problems.Erod

[Alex]

Maybe we should rename this post(?)

ERod,
Don't want to scare you but 711B is no longer being produced. I've shot a lot of this over the last few years in SB Silhouette and have had great success after running them through a Rim Thickness Guage.

The good news is when they stopped loading 711B, they came out with "Classic" Standard Velocity which I liked even better. They've repackaged "Classic" and now call it "Champion". I say it's the same because it has the same Federal stock number (5035) and it shoots to the same point of impact in both my rifles and handguns. The best part of the whole deal is that 5035 has fewer wild rim thicknesses than 711B and is cheaper (almost as cheap as Aguila SV).

Hold center,

Alex

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Alex-I am just getting back into f/p shooting.There was a decent price on Federal std vel-sold by CC.They told me it was the same as 711b.It is a red box,714,target std vel-but I really don't know for sure anything more than that.It works fine with my 84e,and no ejection/feeding problems.I am looking for a decent brand of 22's,for the day I can really shoot well and if you have any helpful opinions in this area-now's the time :-) I heard good words about the lapua brand(pistol king)cci pistol match-but right now I have no intention of testing them.I will rely on some of the members,whose opinion can help me with a balance of price and performance.Thanks to all.Erod.

[Guest]

One day on the corporate jet the CEO ordered a scotch on the rocks. The pilot asked him if he wanted Johnie Walker Red or Black. The CEO asked the pilot if he knew what was the essential difference between them - Answewr: $2.00 (that was 40 years ago)
I wonder if the same aplies to the ammo.
Tony

[Fred Mannis]

Ernie,
Just bought a case of the Federal Champion (5035) for $108. Functions perfectly in two Pardinis and groups very well.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Fred-Out of curiosity,I called Gary G. of Federal,inquiring about the 714's.He said the 711b 's were identical to the 714's-the only difference is the boxes.One is for Export sales and the other is not.Erod.