Hey Ed H.
Even if I disagreed with every single word you wrote and concept you espouse, it would be impossible to flame someone who shares so much time and generosity.
I think I become a little bit better of a shooter after reading posts like yours.
Thank you !
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Steve Swartz
Ed Hall:
Ditto on the value of your contributions. Little known fact on this board- Ed Hall has coached/trained/worked with literally hundreds of shooters (my self included!) over the years and
as we both know
teaching/coaching/explaining is one of the best ways to improve, develop and refine your own understanding.
Ed- you and I have pretty much seen eye-eye the last few years on our joint understanding of what makes a perfect shot process, so I have been troubled by our apparent (illusory, come to find out) disconnects in this thread.
I think I have finally located the source of our semantic disconnect in your last email.
When I write "we need to program our subconscious process" and you reply with "We spend too much time focusing on the programming. Our subconscious can take care of all that if we quit trying to run the show" all of a sudden it struck me:
What do *you* think "programming the process" means?
Anxiously await your (well reasoned and deliberate as usual) reply. I will be off line shooting the Austin PTO for a couple of days . . .
Steve "The Student" Swartz
Ditto on the value of your contributions. Little known fact on this board- Ed Hall has coached/trained/worked with literally hundreds of shooters (my self included!) over the years and
as we both know
teaching/coaching/explaining is one of the best ways to improve, develop and refine your own understanding.
Ed- you and I have pretty much seen eye-eye the last few years on our joint understanding of what makes a perfect shot process, so I have been troubled by our apparent (illusory, come to find out) disconnects in this thread.
I think I have finally located the source of our semantic disconnect in your last email.
When I write "we need to program our subconscious process" and you reply with "We spend too much time focusing on the programming. Our subconscious can take care of all that if we quit trying to run the show" all of a sudden it struck me:
What do *you* think "programming the process" means?
Anxiously await your (well reasoned and deliberate as usual) reply. I will be off line shooting the Austin PTO for a couple of days . . .
Steve "The Student" Swartz
Ed,
An excellent training piece and I suspect very useful to lots of us here - so thanks ! I suspect like Steve we are pretty much all singing from the same hymn sheet but our terminology makes it seem like we aren't. I don't see anything in your post I disagree with (for once I know ;-) ). I do however find it difficult to comprehend how much control you are saying to give the subconscious. I personally feel the subconscious should do the last little bit whilst the conscious should do the rest. I come at that from 2 angles; 1) I see no downside to consciously going through most of the shot routine up until we get to the final sight picture. 2) We need to have something in the conscious mind to keep it focused on the task at hand (otherwise it will wander). As we know it can only cope with one thing at a time and for me (at least at the moment) that's the sight picture (i.e. primarily the foresight).
Anyway since I can't really disagree with anything I'll sign it off. I do however look forward to some more pearls of wisdom and cheers all for a very informative thread !
Rob.
An excellent training piece and I suspect very useful to lots of us here - so thanks ! I suspect like Steve we are pretty much all singing from the same hymn sheet but our terminology makes it seem like we aren't. I don't see anything in your post I disagree with (for once I know ;-) ). I do however find it difficult to comprehend how much control you are saying to give the subconscious. I personally feel the subconscious should do the last little bit whilst the conscious should do the rest. I come at that from 2 angles; 1) I see no downside to consciously going through most of the shot routine up until we get to the final sight picture. 2) We need to have something in the conscious mind to keep it focused on the task at hand (otherwise it will wander). As we know it can only cope with one thing at a time and for me (at least at the moment) that's the sight picture (i.e. primarily the foresight).
Anyway since I can't really disagree with anything I'll sign it off. I do however look forward to some more pearls of wisdom and cheers all for a very informative thread !
Rob.
I'd be interested in hearing Ed's and other's thoughts on a couple of things. I have concluded that I only shoot really well when I am so visually and consciously focused on the front sight that I am not even aware of my trigger finger during that last second before the shot breaks -- I don't feel it, I don't physically feel it applying pressure to the trigger, and I don't care when the shot breaks. I mention this because I can use this as an "alarm" if my conscious starts to interfere. If I am aware of my trigger finger, I have not turned control of it over to my subconscious completely. I stop, refocus mentally ("It is like me to trust my subconscious") and try again.
Similarly, if I find myself listening for the shot, I am anticipating it. I am probably going to mess it up. The mind must be so focused on the desired outcome that these distractions don't happen in my experience. I can use these conscious sensations (feeling the trigger finger, realizing that I am listening for the shot) as a kind of checklist, and work to ensure that I avoid doing them, or to switch them off in effect. Make sense?
Edited to add: I shot .22 and .45 yesterday at 50 yards (normally I shoot at 20 and 25 yards). Very educational. In order to hit in the black, I had to really focus not just on trusting the subconscious and tuning out any conscious control, but also had to put much more concentration on not moving the front sight through the break, as opposed to "shooting a ten." At that distance any little twitchiness or shift of the muzzle really throws the shot off. And a flyer is waaay off. I can also say that using the spotting scope can be a real distraction. I started to group much better once I ignored it and just worked on making each shot as good as I could, independent of what had come before. This will take more experimentation, and I won't be leaving it at home anytime soon, but I may well use it sparingly in the future.
Similarly, if I find myself listening for the shot, I am anticipating it. I am probably going to mess it up. The mind must be so focused on the desired outcome that these distractions don't happen in my experience. I can use these conscious sensations (feeling the trigger finger, realizing that I am listening for the shot) as a kind of checklist, and work to ensure that I avoid doing them, or to switch them off in effect. Make sense?
Edited to add: I shot .22 and .45 yesterday at 50 yards (normally I shoot at 20 and 25 yards). Very educational. In order to hit in the black, I had to really focus not just on trusting the subconscious and tuning out any conscious control, but also had to put much more concentration on not moving the front sight through the break, as opposed to "shooting a ten." At that distance any little twitchiness or shift of the muzzle really throws the shot off. And a flyer is waaay off. I can also say that using the spotting scope can be a real distraction. I started to group much better once I ignored it and just worked on making each shot as good as I could, independent of what had come before. This will take more experimentation, and I won't be leaving it at home anytime soon, but I may well use it sparingly in the future.
-
Fred
Angular Error
Actually Ed, if your targets are correctly proportioned for their respective distances, an angular error is no more likely to throw your shot out of the black at 50 yards than it is at 50 feet. Is it possible that your perception of increased difficulty at 50 yards was a reflection of your not normally shooting at the longer distance?EdStevens wrote: I shot .22 and .45 yesterday at 50 yards (normally I shoot at 20 and 25 yards). Very educational. In order to hit in the black, I had to really focus.....had to put much more concentration on not moving the front sight through the break.... At that distance any little twitchiness or shift of the muzzle really throws the shot off. And a flyer is waaay off.
Fred
Hmmm... I don't think so. I would agree when talking about the natural drift of the barrel equally around a fixed Point of Aim, but not the movement of the muzzle end (front sight) of the barrel by itself. This creates an angle of deviation from the parallel, and the further away the target is, the wider that deviation becomes and the more the Point of Impact moves from the POA. At fifty yards, a relatively small shift in the front sight will move the POI radically. It doesn't seem to me that even with the scaled targets it's the same as at 20. Maybe I'm wrong.
And yes, I admit to some trepidation about shooting at 50 yards. Sure that has an effect. That's part of my education. I have a match coming up on Victoria Day that starts with NRA at 50 yards, and my experience with it last year for the first time was not exactly encouraging. I thought I was shooting blanks for a while there!
I plan to do better this year, and am also hoping that if I can shoot well at 50 yards, then 20 will be a breeze. I can hope, right? ;-)
And yes, I admit to some trepidation about shooting at 50 yards. Sure that has an effect. That's part of my education. I have a match coming up on Victoria Day that starts with NRA at 50 yards, and my experience with it last year for the first time was not exactly encouraging. I thought I was shooting blanks for a while there!
I plan to do better this year, and am also hoping that if I can shoot well at 50 yards, then 20 will be a breeze. I can hope, right? ;-)
-
Ed Hall
Thanks for the encouragement, guys.<smile>
To Steve (mainly),
First, I hope we hear of great achievements on your return from the PTO. Belated "Good Luck" wishes...
As I mentioned before, everything is based on our personal vantage point along our individual paths and therefore messages can never truly be guaranteed to transmit the intended thought. This is especially true with written word, but even pictures generate a different set of "a thousand words" for each of us. All the messages I've been presented over the years have changed as I moved (in both directions) along my path. At times I've been frustrated to no end at the realization that no matter how far I travel in shooting, how much I study shooting, how deeply I contemplate shooting, I never reach the end of the book. I've also entertained the thought that maybe the end of the book is waiting at the gravesite. If I learn all the "secrets," do I immediately die? I have discovered, however, that we do reach subconscious goals. They don't necessarily come at our time of choice, but often occur at a time when we are no longer as acutely interested in them. They usually occur when they have been released from our conscious to our subconscious. These are not just shooting goals, but life goals. This creates quite a paradox, almost as if we can't have it until we don't want it anymore. But, what's really happening is that we are releasing the goal to our subconscious without the conscious interference and allowing our subconscious to complete the work to meet the goal. This is why we use so many ways to present the goals to ourselves; write the goal, read the goal, subvocalize the goal, place the goal where we can subliminally catch it. These are all methods to send the goal to our subconscious to let it know our desire. But, we also must release it from our conscious thoughts in order to reach it. We must glance ahead to our goal and then place our "now" attention on the path so we don't trip.
To return to messages and interpretations at hand:
I used to believe that the purpose of dry firing was to create a program consciously and then record that program in the subconscious for it to play back, as a perfect duplication. I have since changed that view to one of dry fire being an interaction with the subconscious such that it drives the activity and studies the results directly. Instead of consciously making the trigger move a certain way, I look for the natural movement to "perform itself." After I acquire that natural feeling for the trigger I gradually add in the other elements. At each step, instead of controlling the activity directly, I try to feel for when it seems natural and observe the elements starting to "refine themselves."
I suppose, in a roundabout way, I'm saying that when I read "programming the process," I think of the conscious effort to ingrain a set of steps into the subconscious for "Memorex" retrieval. But, again, this is merely my interpretation of a message presented in an ambiguous medium.
To Rob (mainly)
Why not give all control of the performance to the subconscious? The common answer is that we fear it may not give us the desired result if we are not directly involved. The truth is that our conscious may not give us the desired result, either. It often seems that the more involved in the process, the more careful we try to be, the wider our group becomes. Much of this is based in emotion. How often have we heard of, or experienced first hand, the disastrous start of a match that resulted in us just giving up, only to find that our group suddenly closed up and moved to center, too late. We had a great finish; if only we could have gotten it together in the beginning...
I would suggest that at that point where we "gave up" our subconscious was finally able to freely apply its talents and the results came around to their potential.
There needs to be a gradual transition of all the elements, but why not let the subconscious perform the shot? Instead of stepping through the endless shot plan list, start removing steps as the subconscious takes them over. Bring your list down to a single thought - shoot. Don't be too quick to reduce the list, but do look for the natural acceptance of each element and release it to the subconscious as appropriate.
Let's look at the idea of waiting until the last part of the shot to turn over control to the subconscious. Of course this will have my slant, since I'm writing it, but bear with me:
I'll start at the point where I bring the gun up above the target and settle into my aiming area bringing the sights into alignment. All looks good so I now say, "OK, subconscious, do your thing." My subconscious replies, "OK, but you know, we missed the best opportunity for success about four seconds ago. By the time I get a handle on how everything looks, we'll have missed two more lesser opportunities. But if you keep after me, I'll go ahead and fire. I'd rather you didn't fire this one, but if you insist..." Meanwhile our impatient conscious wonders why the subconscious isn't "doing what we told it." We've been on target forever...
Our first null usually happens almost immediately after settling. If we aren't ready to fire in that first null, we'll have to settle for a future one that won't be as small. Why can't we let our subconscious take over earlier? Most probably because of fear of failure. What if we fire before we're ready? Our subconscious might allow us to fire before we get to the center. We're right! That may happen, at least when we first turn control over to our subconscious. But through training and study, if we truly believe in our subconscious, it can take us to some amazing levels.
How much control to turn over to the subconscious is determined by the individual and their level of acceptance, and will vary both ways as we progress.
To ED S. (mainly)
We can turn our focus to a single point and tell the subconscious to go ahead, but that doesn't mean our subconscious has to fire the shot, and it shouldn't mean that. It means that our subconscious has the authorization to fire, but what if the subconscious doesn't think the conditions are correct? How can it convey to us that we should start over? Its only avenue is through feelings sent back to the conscious. These feelings manifest themselves in many ways, such as you've described. You've been very keen in being able to recognize the signals, stop the process and start over. Commonly, we find ourselves being told that something isn't quite right, but deciding that it will be OK anyway, or it'll be close enough.
If we study the way we settle into shots, there is a definite, recognizable pattern that results in a high success rate. There are also other patterns that all have their respective success rates. Through study over time, our subconscious can detect those patterns and determine which ones lead to success and which ones usually give us less than our desires. If we are "tuned in" to notice variances in our settling as the shot progresses, our subconscious can tell us to start over in the manner you've described. It can give us hints that something is not optimum. We can still force the shot, but we also have the opportunity to restart. I like to suggest that if anything "feels" out of place, restart.
Thanks again for the replies.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
To Steve (mainly),
First, I hope we hear of great achievements on your return from the PTO. Belated "Good Luck" wishes...
As I mentioned before, everything is based on our personal vantage point along our individual paths and therefore messages can never truly be guaranteed to transmit the intended thought. This is especially true with written word, but even pictures generate a different set of "a thousand words" for each of us. All the messages I've been presented over the years have changed as I moved (in both directions) along my path. At times I've been frustrated to no end at the realization that no matter how far I travel in shooting, how much I study shooting, how deeply I contemplate shooting, I never reach the end of the book. I've also entertained the thought that maybe the end of the book is waiting at the gravesite. If I learn all the "secrets," do I immediately die? I have discovered, however, that we do reach subconscious goals. They don't necessarily come at our time of choice, but often occur at a time when we are no longer as acutely interested in them. They usually occur when they have been released from our conscious to our subconscious. These are not just shooting goals, but life goals. This creates quite a paradox, almost as if we can't have it until we don't want it anymore. But, what's really happening is that we are releasing the goal to our subconscious without the conscious interference and allowing our subconscious to complete the work to meet the goal. This is why we use so many ways to present the goals to ourselves; write the goal, read the goal, subvocalize the goal, place the goal where we can subliminally catch it. These are all methods to send the goal to our subconscious to let it know our desire. But, we also must release it from our conscious thoughts in order to reach it. We must glance ahead to our goal and then place our "now" attention on the path so we don't trip.
To return to messages and interpretations at hand:
I've understood several meanings along my journey, from constant rote to ingrain, through chanting of mantras and endless lists of shot plan steps, to trying to duplicate success. All of these and the term programming, itself, conjure up (to me) the sense of conscious involvement in the task. It evokes the thought process that one is trying to write the program steps for the subconscious to perform. All of these portions of the view are conscious oriented and allow us to perform at a conscious level. They also introduce the subconscious to our desire. But in order to reach the higher levels, we need to transfer the programming task over to the subconscious. We need to let it determine the application of the fundamentals. We need to release control and authorize our subconscious to modify the programming as appropriate.What do *you* think "programming the process" means?
I used to believe that the purpose of dry firing was to create a program consciously and then record that program in the subconscious for it to play back, as a perfect duplication. I have since changed that view to one of dry fire being an interaction with the subconscious such that it drives the activity and studies the results directly. Instead of consciously making the trigger move a certain way, I look for the natural movement to "perform itself." After I acquire that natural feeling for the trigger I gradually add in the other elements. At each step, instead of controlling the activity directly, I try to feel for when it seems natural and observe the elements starting to "refine themselves."
I suppose, in a roundabout way, I'm saying that when I read "programming the process," I think of the conscious effort to ingrain a set of steps into the subconscious for "Memorex" retrieval. But, again, this is merely my interpretation of a message presented in an ambiguous medium.
To Rob (mainly)
Why not give all control of the performance to the subconscious? The common answer is that we fear it may not give us the desired result if we are not directly involved. The truth is that our conscious may not give us the desired result, either. It often seems that the more involved in the process, the more careful we try to be, the wider our group becomes. Much of this is based in emotion. How often have we heard of, or experienced first hand, the disastrous start of a match that resulted in us just giving up, only to find that our group suddenly closed up and moved to center, too late. We had a great finish; if only we could have gotten it together in the beginning...
I would suggest that at that point where we "gave up" our subconscious was finally able to freely apply its talents and the results came around to their potential.
There needs to be a gradual transition of all the elements, but why not let the subconscious perform the shot? Instead of stepping through the endless shot plan list, start removing steps as the subconscious takes them over. Bring your list down to a single thought - shoot. Don't be too quick to reduce the list, but do look for the natural acceptance of each element and release it to the subconscious as appropriate.
Let's look at the idea of waiting until the last part of the shot to turn over control to the subconscious. Of course this will have my slant, since I'm writing it, but bear with me:
I'll start at the point where I bring the gun up above the target and settle into my aiming area bringing the sights into alignment. All looks good so I now say, "OK, subconscious, do your thing." My subconscious replies, "OK, but you know, we missed the best opportunity for success about four seconds ago. By the time I get a handle on how everything looks, we'll have missed two more lesser opportunities. But if you keep after me, I'll go ahead and fire. I'd rather you didn't fire this one, but if you insist..." Meanwhile our impatient conscious wonders why the subconscious isn't "doing what we told it." We've been on target forever...
Our first null usually happens almost immediately after settling. If we aren't ready to fire in that first null, we'll have to settle for a future one that won't be as small. Why can't we let our subconscious take over earlier? Most probably because of fear of failure. What if we fire before we're ready? Our subconscious might allow us to fire before we get to the center. We're right! That may happen, at least when we first turn control over to our subconscious. But through training and study, if we truly believe in our subconscious, it can take us to some amazing levels.
How much control to turn over to the subconscious is determined by the individual and their level of acceptance, and will vary both ways as we progress.
To ED S. (mainly)
We can turn our focus to a single point and tell the subconscious to go ahead, but that doesn't mean our subconscious has to fire the shot, and it shouldn't mean that. It means that our subconscious has the authorization to fire, but what if the subconscious doesn't think the conditions are correct? How can it convey to us that we should start over? Its only avenue is through feelings sent back to the conscious. These feelings manifest themselves in many ways, such as you've described. You've been very keen in being able to recognize the signals, stop the process and start over. Commonly, we find ourselves being told that something isn't quite right, but deciding that it will be OK anyway, or it'll be close enough.
If we study the way we settle into shots, there is a definite, recognizable pattern that results in a high success rate. There are also other patterns that all have their respective success rates. Through study over time, our subconscious can detect those patterns and determine which ones lead to success and which ones usually give us less than our desires. If we are "tuned in" to notice variances in our settling as the shot progresses, our subconscious can tell us to start over in the manner you've described. It can give us hints that something is not optimum. We can still force the shot, but we also have the opportunity to restart. I like to suggest that if anything "feels" out of place, restart.
Thanks again for the replies.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
-
Steve Swartz
Ed:
I'll address the point about programming- here we disagree only because we have very different meanings associated with the word.
Let's use baseball- hitting a 90 mph fastball- as an example (golf swing would work here too perhaps).
Start with an infant, and end up a .400 hitter in MLB.
How does the infant get "programmed" to hit the fast ball?
While some of the act is (arguably) "intuitive;" go watch a T-Ball game (or coach Little League!) and you'll quickly find out just how far the "intuitiveness" (or "innate knowledge") takes a kid.
Not far.
O.K., so we agree that hitting a ball is learned behavior (for the most part) with a portion of genetic predisposition as a foundation?
Jump forward to the MLB super-hitter again . . . how much of hte act is conscious? Not much! So how did the "learned knowledge" become "learned" by the "subconscious?"
Programming. The subconscious had to be programmed.
Not like breathing . . . not like heart beating . . . not like peristalsis . . . etc.
More like (your example) chewing your food, sans tongue.
So how did we program our subconscious to not chew our tongues?
Well, o.k., we probably don't remember. So let's get back to those T-Ball players.
Swing at a ball over and over and over and over again . . . right?
Our brains make observations (including kinesthetic sense), interpret facts, draw conclusions, experiment with the factors etc. etc. and if we PRACTICE THE RIGHT TECHNIQUES ENOUGH TIMES the acts become . . .
(drumroll please)
"Automatic" (semi-autonomic, subconscious, etc.).
Practice the wrong techniques, we become Lifetime A shooters. Practice the right techniques, and even thoug it takes a lo-o-o-o-ong time, we are no longer "Lifetime Experts" but we are at a minimum shooting up to our potentials.
Check out hte literature on "Psycho-Cybernetics," etc and there have been a lot of studies done on how we can program our semi-autonomic (subconscious) "fire control system" more quickly and efficiently.
here's hte bottom line: we use our conscious mind to develop and refine the training program that will work for us; we use our conscious mind to provide dedication, effort, time management, etc.
Then we use our conscious mind to guide our efforts through the shot plan UP TO the MoT . . . then we FLOW . . . last 200 ms is 100% AUTOPILOT (or you will suffer the consequences of mediocrity!).
p.s. thanks for the kind words and encouragement. After my unbelievable score last month in New Orleans, I have barely cracked 570 (let alone 580) in either training or a match; 572 yesterday at Austin for example (and that's with a handful of 8s). I have an issue I need to discuss with someone about "holding on to peak performance" or "managing the performance cycle." Funny part is, I know I can do better than I have . . . wasn't really impressed or satisfied with the PR when I was shooting it . . . business as usual kind of match. How can my "typical" score move 20 points up and down seemingly at random? Yeah, I had a variability of 20 points when I first started shooting, but c'mon!
Steve "The Quizzical Student" Swartz
I'll address the point about programming- here we disagree only because we have very different meanings associated with the word.
Let's use baseball- hitting a 90 mph fastball- as an example (golf swing would work here too perhaps).
Start with an infant, and end up a .400 hitter in MLB.
How does the infant get "programmed" to hit the fast ball?
While some of the act is (arguably) "intuitive;" go watch a T-Ball game (or coach Little League!) and you'll quickly find out just how far the "intuitiveness" (or "innate knowledge") takes a kid.
Not far.
O.K., so we agree that hitting a ball is learned behavior (for the most part) with a portion of genetic predisposition as a foundation?
Jump forward to the MLB super-hitter again . . . how much of hte act is conscious? Not much! So how did the "learned knowledge" become "learned" by the "subconscious?"
Programming. The subconscious had to be programmed.
Not like breathing . . . not like heart beating . . . not like peristalsis . . . etc.
More like (your example) chewing your food, sans tongue.
So how did we program our subconscious to not chew our tongues?
Well, o.k., we probably don't remember. So let's get back to those T-Ball players.
Swing at a ball over and over and over and over again . . . right?
Our brains make observations (including kinesthetic sense), interpret facts, draw conclusions, experiment with the factors etc. etc. and if we PRACTICE THE RIGHT TECHNIQUES ENOUGH TIMES the acts become . . .
(drumroll please)
"Automatic" (semi-autonomic, subconscious, etc.).
Practice the wrong techniques, we become Lifetime A shooters. Practice the right techniques, and even thoug it takes a lo-o-o-o-ong time, we are no longer "Lifetime Experts" but we are at a minimum shooting up to our potentials.
Check out hte literature on "Psycho-Cybernetics," etc and there have been a lot of studies done on how we can program our semi-autonomic (subconscious) "fire control system" more quickly and efficiently.
here's hte bottom line: we use our conscious mind to develop and refine the training program that will work for us; we use our conscious mind to provide dedication, effort, time management, etc.
Then we use our conscious mind to guide our efforts through the shot plan UP TO the MoT . . . then we FLOW . . . last 200 ms is 100% AUTOPILOT (or you will suffer the consequences of mediocrity!).
p.s. thanks for the kind words and encouragement. After my unbelievable score last month in New Orleans, I have barely cracked 570 (let alone 580) in either training or a match; 572 yesterday at Austin for example (and that's with a handful of 8s). I have an issue I need to discuss with someone about "holding on to peak performance" or "managing the performance cycle." Funny part is, I know I can do better than I have . . . wasn't really impressed or satisfied with the PR when I was shooting it . . . business as usual kind of match. How can my "typical" score move 20 points up and down seemingly at random? Yeah, I had a variability of 20 points when I first started shooting, but c'mon!
Steve "The Quizzical Student" Swartz
"guest" status
Steve,
Why don't you "register" on TT so that we can PM you?
Thanks!
JLK
Why don't you "register" on TT so that we can PM you?
Thanks!
JLK
Steve, et al
I have a "learning" story from softball that relates maybe to our topic. To expand on the learning process whether it be bat and ball or pistol shooting, I have always believed in a base point of the desired actions. In the ball game it is meeting the ball with the bat. In shooting it is having, no, seeing the sights aligned when the shot goes off (I think :)
I had my 5-6 grade girls team made up of horrible to not bad players. The worst swung the bat like, well, a girl, ya know. (European shooters can listen here or not :) We are suddenly talking BASEBALL. Yeah!
I had the girls hold their bat over the plate and just meet the practice pitch. Just let the bat meet the ball while watching, no, seeing the ball into the bat. Forget where the ball goes, just touch the ball with the bat in front. That was the smallest critical point of hitting the ball I could find. The smallest and most fundamental piece of the batting skill. Once the girl could perform and recognize the purpose, we added a short swing from about a foot behind the plate. Then we added hitting direction to the short stroke. I placed bucket targets left, right and up the middle, each about half the distance to the mound. Now the girls were watching the ball, meeting the ball, and controlling the ball from a short stroke. We added more length to the stroke and further targets. That season we won the City League and took the batting crown by far.
Breaking the action down into fundamental pieces seemed to do well for learning the batting skill. Same thing I did for coaching 9-12 grade divers. We don't add tricks until you nail the basics of approach and entry to the trick.
In shooting, We don't nail the shot unless we SEE the sight. Foresight or dot, every part of the shot revolves around it. If you cant "see" what I mean, close your eyes and accept your hold, align the sights, don't disturb the alignment with the trigger action, And most importantly, call the shot. Granted you can obtain some feedback from "feel".
So maybe we could learn and work on shooting skills seeing the sight and working outwards instead of coming into the center with supporting skills. With one centerpiece element, maybe our poor subconscious won't strike out.
I have a "learning" story from softball that relates maybe to our topic. To expand on the learning process whether it be bat and ball or pistol shooting, I have always believed in a base point of the desired actions. In the ball game it is meeting the ball with the bat. In shooting it is having, no, seeing the sights aligned when the shot goes off (I think :)
I had my 5-6 grade girls team made up of horrible to not bad players. The worst swung the bat like, well, a girl, ya know. (European shooters can listen here or not :) We are suddenly talking BASEBALL. Yeah!
I had the girls hold their bat over the plate and just meet the practice pitch. Just let the bat meet the ball while watching, no, seeing the ball into the bat. Forget where the ball goes, just touch the ball with the bat in front. That was the smallest critical point of hitting the ball I could find. The smallest and most fundamental piece of the batting skill. Once the girl could perform and recognize the purpose, we added a short swing from about a foot behind the plate. Then we added hitting direction to the short stroke. I placed bucket targets left, right and up the middle, each about half the distance to the mound. Now the girls were watching the ball, meeting the ball, and controlling the ball from a short stroke. We added more length to the stroke and further targets. That season we won the City League and took the batting crown by far.
Breaking the action down into fundamental pieces seemed to do well for learning the batting skill. Same thing I did for coaching 9-12 grade divers. We don't add tricks until you nail the basics of approach and entry to the trick.
In shooting, We don't nail the shot unless we SEE the sight. Foresight or dot, every part of the shot revolves around it. If you cant "see" what I mean, close your eyes and accept your hold, align the sights, don't disturb the alignment with the trigger action, And most importantly, call the shot. Granted you can obtain some feedback from "feel".
So maybe we could learn and work on shooting skills seeing the sight and working outwards instead of coming into the center with supporting skills. With one centerpiece element, maybe our poor subconscious won't strike out.
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Fred
Something new to think about
Just read this article, which has many potential relationships to this topic, especially the primacy of sight alignment and the border between conscious and subconscious. Check it out! Invent new theories!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/science/25brain.html
Fred
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/science/25brain.html
Fred
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Ed Hall
Hi Steve,
There is no disagreement with your points, per se. The difference between practicing the correct vs. incorrect techniques has to do with the focus. Study all your errors and you learn very well how to perform them. This error study is not necessarily a waste, but it does dramatically slow down improvement. Study what you do that succeeds and you move ahead more rapidly. But there is an even greater influence - attitude. Your attitude toward any activity is a great contributor to success and failure. If you've ever argued with a child, trying to convince them that they could do something if they just tried, you will probably remember that they can as easily succeed in proving that they can't. This is a great display of how powerful one's subconscious is in following its belief. In effect, is not attitude a reflection of how much confidence you have in your subconscious?
To move to .400, there was a mental change as well as a technique study. A player with .400 "knows" he can hit. He has all the confidence that he "will" hit. He also has turned over the process to his subconscious such that it makes the decision to go or not. He may not succeed in a particular instance, but his average leans toward success.
Let's move back to shooting. An AP shooter at the 570 level has learned the fundamentals. The avenue to higher scores is no longer in the physical realm of conscious technique, but rather in the mental realm of telling the subconscious it is in control and really believing in its capabilities; in essence - confidence.
A limiting factor, is our self image. Unfortunately, those negative little things we say (even, or perhaps especially, in jest) are picked up just as readily as all the positives we try to put forth in our imagery work. Little things like considering a high score "unbelievable" adds to its being out of the ordinary. Things I see all over where someone talks of a great target and then says, "but now I have to get back to reality" or "if only I could do that all the time" or "if only I could learn to make use of this gun's accuracy" are indicators to the subconscious that it isn't capable of performing at that level. We need to watch what we're telling our subconscious. In comes "Mental Management" via Lanny Bassham, etc. If we can convince our subconscious that we are that good, and throw modesty aside as we confront ourselves, we can build that confidence to take us higher. We must also get rid of the idea that we will be that good someday and convince ourselves that we are already there. Only then can we move to letting the subconscious take care of the shot(s) for us. We must then move toward acceptance of all shots as just shots and focus our subconscious toward our goals.
There are several other issues involved in the mental arena, including working toward an empty mind and creating the visualization techniques that can lend direction to our subconscious, but I'm veering from the subject and should get this posted, since I've been tardy in my response.
BTW, we do sometimes still chew our tongue. (Would that be like a 7 or 8?)
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
There is no disagreement with your points, per se. The difference between practicing the correct vs. incorrect techniques has to do with the focus. Study all your errors and you learn very well how to perform them. This error study is not necessarily a waste, but it does dramatically slow down improvement. Study what you do that succeeds and you move ahead more rapidly. But there is an even greater influence - attitude. Your attitude toward any activity is a great contributor to success and failure. If you've ever argued with a child, trying to convince them that they could do something if they just tried, you will probably remember that they can as easily succeed in proving that they can't. This is a great display of how powerful one's subconscious is in following its belief. In effect, is not attitude a reflection of how much confidence you have in your subconscious?
To move to .400, there was a mental change as well as a technique study. A player with .400 "knows" he can hit. He has all the confidence that he "will" hit. He also has turned over the process to his subconscious such that it makes the decision to go or not. He may not succeed in a particular instance, but his average leans toward success.
Let's move back to shooting. An AP shooter at the 570 level has learned the fundamentals. The avenue to higher scores is no longer in the physical realm of conscious technique, but rather in the mental realm of telling the subconscious it is in control and really believing in its capabilities; in essence - confidence.
A limiting factor, is our self image. Unfortunately, those negative little things we say (even, or perhaps especially, in jest) are picked up just as readily as all the positives we try to put forth in our imagery work. Little things like considering a high score "unbelievable" adds to its being out of the ordinary. Things I see all over where someone talks of a great target and then says, "but now I have to get back to reality" or "if only I could do that all the time" or "if only I could learn to make use of this gun's accuracy" are indicators to the subconscious that it isn't capable of performing at that level. We need to watch what we're telling our subconscious. In comes "Mental Management" via Lanny Bassham, etc. If we can convince our subconscious that we are that good, and throw modesty aside as we confront ourselves, we can build that confidence to take us higher. We must also get rid of the idea that we will be that good someday and convince ourselves that we are already there. Only then can we move to letting the subconscious take care of the shot(s) for us. We must then move toward acceptance of all shots as just shots and focus our subconscious toward our goals.
There are several other issues involved in the mental arena, including working toward an empty mind and creating the visualization techniques that can lend direction to our subconscious, but I'm veering from the subject and should get this posted, since I've been tardy in my response.
BTW, we do sometimes still chew our tongue. (Would that be like a 7 or 8?)
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
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Steve Swartz
Jeeze, Ed, where did I say we needed to study our errors?
We need to
1) Determine what the proper *behaviors* are; then
2) Program ourselves to execute those proper *behaviors*
If you are developing a training plan around "How To Avoid Making Mistakes" or "What Did I do Wrong" or "What does the USAMU 'Wheel of Misfortune' Say" then I certainly don't need to look for you in my rear view mirror.
Hey, you shoot a bad shot, "Elvis Did It" and move on.
TMI Alert:
Also, calling a performance "unusually good" (at least in my case) is more about "Not Appearing To Sound Too Arrogant" than it is about "Gee I can't believe I shot that score."
Ed- personally- have you ever known me to have a self-image or lack of confidence problem?
O.K., 1998-2001 in Bullseye aside that is . . . =8^)
Steve "Yes I can Shoot 590 Any Time I pick Up The Gun" Swartz
(But I do understand and appreciate your comments and the larger point you are trying to make. When you shoot a great score, realize that the new PR becomes the floor, not the ceilinjg, for performance. Contact me off line at leslieswartz@erinet.com please if you have the time- I need some coaching!)
We Now Return To Our Regular "What Gun/Pellets/Underwear To Buy" Program . . .
We need to
1) Determine what the proper *behaviors* are; then
2) Program ourselves to execute those proper *behaviors*
If you are developing a training plan around "How To Avoid Making Mistakes" or "What Did I do Wrong" or "What does the USAMU 'Wheel of Misfortune' Say" then I certainly don't need to look for you in my rear view mirror.
Hey, you shoot a bad shot, "Elvis Did It" and move on.
TMI Alert:
Also, calling a performance "unusually good" (at least in my case) is more about "Not Appearing To Sound Too Arrogant" than it is about "Gee I can't believe I shot that score."
Ed- personally- have you ever known me to have a self-image or lack of confidence problem?
O.K., 1998-2001 in Bullseye aside that is . . . =8^)
Steve "Yes I can Shoot 590 Any Time I pick Up The Gun" Swartz
(But I do understand and appreciate your comments and the larger point you are trying to make. When you shoot a great score, realize that the new PR becomes the floor, not the ceilinjg, for performance. Contact me off line at leslieswartz@erinet.com please if you have the time- I need some coaching!)
We Now Return To Our Regular "What Gun/Pellets/Underwear To Buy" Program . . .
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Pär Hylander
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Sweden
I, and I think many other, find this thread very intresting, if not the most intresting thread of them all. If my native language was english I would probably have been active in it.Steve Swartz wrote: We Now Return To Our Regular "What Gun/Pellets/Underwear To Buy" Program . . .
Please do not feel that the thread was not appreciatet, I just have the impression that the topic is so complex that many people, incl myself, hestitate to participate.
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Anders Turebrand
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:27 pm
- Location: Stockholm Sweden
Amen to that...Ed Hall wrote:A limiting factor, is our self image.
My airpistol scores have been around 540 the last year and a half, three years ago I regularly shot scores of around 560 or so, 574 being my best.
I seem to have lost my confidence and I'm working on rebuilding it (although not in a structured way, more like waiting for it to return...)
/Anders
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Fred
self-image
I must be dense, but I don't understand how statements like "if only I could do that all the time," come from the conscious mind and not from the subconscious. If you make the statement because you believe it's true, then isn't it directly from your subconscious, your core beliefs? Only if you make the statement believing it to be untrue could your conscious and subconscious be at odds.
To put it another way, how can your conscious mind "program" your subconscious to believe something fundamental, like a particular image of yourself, without the conscious mind fully believing in it, and how can the conscious mind fully believe in something without the subconscious believing in it as well?
Like Anders, I was shooting well and then lost confidence, and, like Anders, I have also been waiting a long time for it to return. I wish it were as simple as just telling my subconscious that I am still the shooter that I was.
To put it another way, how can your conscious mind "program" your subconscious to believe something fundamental, like a particular image of yourself, without the conscious mind fully believing in it, and how can the conscious mind fully believe in something without the subconscious believing in it as well?
Like Anders, I was shooting well and then lost confidence, and, like Anders, I have also been waiting a long time for it to return. I wish it were as simple as just telling my subconscious that I am still the shooter that I was.
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Ed Hall
Hi Steve,
My apologies for sounding as though I thought you were error seeking. I know that's not true. You were the first to introduce me to the term "Wheel-of-Misfortune," something I believe every gunbox should be without. The "error study" line was meant to add to the "no disagreement" line. Although I addressed your topics in the mix (and labeled the response to you), I added a lot of the information based on a bigger picture for more of the readership. I shall contact you off line. I will also place more response here in a more general sense, since there is some interest in the thread.
Arrogance and modesty are problem areas for elite performers. Note how we place ideas into our subconscious. If we write something, is it not more readily retained than if we simply say it? And aren't we already retaining messages by what we say to ourselves? If we try to work both sides of the street, conflicting messages add blur to the image. This is where we must be careful to balance our outward and inward perception and be aware of our own beliefs and what we say/write. Our beliefs are key to our accomplishments. Haven't many great achievements been made by individuals who "knew" it could be done, even though their peers "knew it couldn't?"
We must avoid arrogance and over-confidence, but modesty needs to be carefully applied. Sometimes it's better to say only a little than to expound. Let's take a case I mentioned earlier. This individual feels compelled to provide descriptions of his wide shot troubles or add, "If I could just do this on a regular basis." whenever you compliment a good target. A better response might be a simple thanks and to inwardly review what the compliment was for. An even better response among teammates (especially in training) might be a short description of what led to the good results. So, what are we left with? Focus on our desires and reinforcement of those things that realize our desires.
I hate to sound as though I'm picking on you Steve, and I hope you understand this is not the intent, but you've mentioned areas that have triggered responses which may or may not relate directly, and my responses on line are written to address a subject to a wider crowd. Also, take note that if I can help you, in even a small way, to achieve 600 before I get there, I would still be ecstatic.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
My apologies for sounding as though I thought you were error seeking. I know that's not true. You were the first to introduce me to the term "Wheel-of-Misfortune," something I believe every gunbox should be without. The "error study" line was meant to add to the "no disagreement" line. Although I addressed your topics in the mix (and labeled the response to you), I added a lot of the information based on a bigger picture for more of the readership. I shall contact you off line. I will also place more response here in a more general sense, since there is some interest in the thread.
Arrogance and modesty are problem areas for elite performers. Note how we place ideas into our subconscious. If we write something, is it not more readily retained than if we simply say it? And aren't we already retaining messages by what we say to ourselves? If we try to work both sides of the street, conflicting messages add blur to the image. This is where we must be careful to balance our outward and inward perception and be aware of our own beliefs and what we say/write. Our beliefs are key to our accomplishments. Haven't many great achievements been made by individuals who "knew" it could be done, even though their peers "knew it couldn't?"
We must avoid arrogance and over-confidence, but modesty needs to be carefully applied. Sometimes it's better to say only a little than to expound. Let's take a case I mentioned earlier. This individual feels compelled to provide descriptions of his wide shot troubles or add, "If I could just do this on a regular basis." whenever you compliment a good target. A better response might be a simple thanks and to inwardly review what the compliment was for. An even better response among teammates (especially in training) might be a short description of what led to the good results. So, what are we left with? Focus on our desires and reinforcement of those things that realize our desires.
I hate to sound as though I'm picking on you Steve, and I hope you understand this is not the intent, but you've mentioned areas that have triggered responses which may or may not relate directly, and my responses on line are written to address a subject to a wider crowd. Also, take note that if I can help you, in even a small way, to achieve 600 before I get there, I would still be ecstatic.
I remember winning a District level event with my .45 in Germany, and being asked what I ate for breakfast... Two Sausage, Egg & Cheese Croissan'wiches from the Air Base Burger King...We Now Return To Our Regular "What Gun/Pellets/Underwear To Buy" Program . . .
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
Re: self-image
I've kept out of this because the participants have said what I am thinking (and a lot that I have not thought about) better and work's been crazy lately and this is not the kind of topic you can throw out a response in a few seconds. But I love this topic. It is rare that a topic comes along that I have to make a point of setting aside 20-30 minutes when I get home to review and think about it away from work or other distractions. A big thank you to all who have contributed.
The first leap of faith is to accept that you can change what you subconscously believe. If you repeat something enough times, you start believing it. Basically this is brainwashing. It is different than brainwashing because we concsiously decide what beliefs we willl "brainwash" into our subconcsious and not someone else.
You can wait until you shoot well and then be confident, but this may take years and all it takes is a bad spell and the confidence will be gone.
The better method is to use self talk. Decide what you want, in this case more self confidence. Now write it down in a positive way as if it is already true, for example "I am a great shooter and I love showing what I can do in competition." Say this to yourself several times a day everyday, say it out loud (perhaps in the car), write it down 10 times every day etc. Say it with authority and confidence, don't think "this is silly" when you do it, say it and believe it, if only for those few seconds. Give it a try for a few weeks and see what happens.
Regards,
Steve T
Whether the negative statements come from the concsious or subconcsious mind doesn't really matter, IMHO. Saying it reinforces it in you. If you shoot a good target, look at it and say "That is what I can do." If someone compliments it and you don't want to sound arrogent, just say "Thank you, it felt really good."Fred wrote:I must be dense, but I don't understand how statements like "if only I could do that all the time," come from the conscious mind and not from the subconscious.
For all of the following, you can accept this or not. I believe it to be true, and it has worked for me.Fred wrote:... how can your conscious mind "program" your subconscious to believe something fundamental, like a particular image of yourself, without the conscious mind fully believing in it, and how can the conscious mind fully believe in something without the subconscious believing in it as well?
The first leap of faith is to accept that you can change what you subconscously believe. If you repeat something enough times, you start believing it. Basically this is brainwashing. It is different than brainwashing because we concsiously decide what beliefs we willl "brainwash" into our subconcsious and not someone else.
You can wait until you shoot well and then be confident, but this may take years and all it takes is a bad spell and the confidence will be gone.
The better method is to use self talk. Decide what you want, in this case more self confidence. Now write it down in a positive way as if it is already true, for example "I am a great shooter and I love showing what I can do in competition." Say this to yourself several times a day everyday, say it out loud (perhaps in the car), write it down 10 times every day etc. Say it with authority and confidence, don't think "this is silly" when you do it, say it and believe it, if only for those few seconds. Give it a try for a few weeks and see what happens.
Regards,
Steve T
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Steve Swartz
SteveT and All:
Well, it should be apparent by now that I am a big believer in "programming your subconscious." What might not be apparent is that there are several different kinds of tasks that are performed below "conscious thought" and that the approach for subconsciously programming Task A might be different from teh approach for programming Task B.
For example:
Task A: Positive Self Image
Task B: Releasing shot at the right instant
Both are important sub-conscious functions . . . a quibble here but A is probably more "subconscious task" and B is probably more a "semiautonomic task" but you get my drift.
For programming stuff like Task A, I personally have found self-hypnosis and autosuggestion triggered by keywords to be quite effective. Actually I prefer Terry Orlick's work to Lanny Bassham's in htis area, but there are good sources out there and *something* WILL work for you; you just have to dig in and try stuff.
For task B, the literature is quite different . . . "NeuroLinguistic Programming," "PsychoCybernetics" etc. are a couple of different terms used for this- also, much of the "Visualization" and "Imagery" stuff from Bassham and Orlick does indeed *touch on* Task B processing- but in my "Not So Humble Cause I Practice Positive Self Imagery" opinion falls quite short.
For me- all I can figure out is if you practice the "Flow" techniques (from Bassham, Orlick, et al) AND you truly concentrate on maintaining sight picture AND learn to recongize and ACCEPT your hold AND repeat this "in hte zone shooting" 1,000,000,000 times perfectly in a row . . .
MAGIC HAPPENS!
And your shot release does indeed become sbconscious/semiautonomic/automatic.
Hmmm . . . maybe the old timers are right when they say "No Secrets - No Shortcuts!
Steve "Only Up To 1,000,000 Times" Swartz
Well, it should be apparent by now that I am a big believer in "programming your subconscious." What might not be apparent is that there are several different kinds of tasks that are performed below "conscious thought" and that the approach for subconsciously programming Task A might be different from teh approach for programming Task B.
For example:
Task A: Positive Self Image
Task B: Releasing shot at the right instant
Both are important sub-conscious functions . . . a quibble here but A is probably more "subconscious task" and B is probably more a "semiautonomic task" but you get my drift.
For programming stuff like Task A, I personally have found self-hypnosis and autosuggestion triggered by keywords to be quite effective. Actually I prefer Terry Orlick's work to Lanny Bassham's in htis area, but there are good sources out there and *something* WILL work for you; you just have to dig in and try stuff.
For task B, the literature is quite different . . . "NeuroLinguistic Programming," "PsychoCybernetics" etc. are a couple of different terms used for this- also, much of the "Visualization" and "Imagery" stuff from Bassham and Orlick does indeed *touch on* Task B processing- but in my "Not So Humble Cause I Practice Positive Self Imagery" opinion falls quite short.
For me- all I can figure out is if you practice the "Flow" techniques (from Bassham, Orlick, et al) AND you truly concentrate on maintaining sight picture AND learn to recongize and ACCEPT your hold AND repeat this "in hte zone shooting" 1,000,000,000 times perfectly in a row . . .
MAGIC HAPPENS!
And your shot release does indeed become sbconscious/semiautonomic/automatic.
Hmmm . . . maybe the old timers are right when they say "No Secrets - No Shortcuts!
Steve "Only Up To 1,000,000 Times" Swartz