An off-line discussion on training, shot plans, etc. raised the question as to what exactly is happening in hte last 200 milliseconds (the "Moment of Truth") before the "hammer" falls.
Two possible scenarios were proposed, but I'd be intersted in a wider set of opinions.
Assume fundamentally proper technique, adn all conditions for the perfect 10 have been established- sight alignment is perfect, the sight picture is settled in to the minimum arc of movement in hte aiming area, and the shooter is mesmerized by the front sight. Then:
1) The shooter makes a conscious decision to apply swift, smooth perfect trigger pressure and subconsciously the sights are "steered" into the sweet spot;
OR
2) The shooter consciously maintains perfect alignment, "authorizes" the shot, and the swift, smooth, perfect trigger pressure is subconsciously timed to release the shot at the right moment before the sights wobble through the sweet spot.
This might be a "philosophical" question, but is not a "rhetorical" one. Some training plan and shot plan issues hang in the balance!
Last 200 Milliseconds
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Interesting topic ideed. I have no idea what to prefer, I guess there is no right or wrong between the alternatives.
One thing that came up in my mind is what Yify Wang said in the ISSF.tv interview after winning olympic gold in 10m pistol in Athens... He got a question about if he had any special tactics or something like that. Then he said something like: no no, nothing special, just shoot.
For me this is exactly what shooting is about - non complicated - just aim and shoot. A well trained automatic procedure.
/Axel
One thing that came up in my mind is what Yify Wang said in the ISSF.tv interview after winning olympic gold in 10m pistol in Athens... He got a question about if he had any special tactics or something like that. Then he said something like: no no, nothing special, just shoot.
For me this is exactly what shooting is about - non complicated - just aim and shoot. A well trained automatic procedure.
/Axel
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I firmly believe there is another possible scenario.
You have described the conscious and the subconscious shots, both of which will normally show some change (on an ET) in the last 0.25-0.35 seconds before a shot is released, the reaction time.
The third scenario, and probably much rarer, is the totally unconscious shot. Here there is no change at all in the ET trace just before the shot breaks. I believe that the shot would break at that time no matter where the pistol was aiming.
I have had the pleasure of running a couple of Scatt sessions with a shooter who exhibited, for virtually every shot, this "flat" trace. The shooter is agueably one of the best UK pistoleers ever.
You have described the conscious and the subconscious shots, both of which will normally show some change (on an ET) in the last 0.25-0.35 seconds before a shot is released, the reaction time.
The third scenario, and probably much rarer, is the totally unconscious shot. Here there is no change at all in the ET trace just before the shot breaks. I believe that the shot would break at that time no matter where the pistol was aiming.
I have had the pleasure of running a couple of Scatt sessions with a shooter who exhibited, for virtually every shot, this "flat" trace. The shooter is agueably one of the best UK pistoleers ever.
Yahoo
I'll second David's scenario, with bells on!
The times I have the intestinal fortitude to believe in the unconscious release, I KNOW I get the best results.
I firmly believe that any conscious or semi-conscious release is doomed to pull the shot from the center of the target WHEN fine motor control is not optimum. Which is when you're nervous, distracted, excited, whatever.
Looking at the RIKA stats, the best shooters I know have a flat line "possible score" for at least half a second before the shot releases to a few tenths after release. Because they employ a simple "squeeze until the shot beaks all by itself" within a relatively narrow window (of optimum hold), they duplicate practice scores in the big matches. There's no fall-off because they are not relying on fine motor control.
The times I have the intestinal fortitude to believe in the unconscious release, I KNOW I get the best results.
I firmly believe that any conscious or semi-conscious release is doomed to pull the shot from the center of the target WHEN fine motor control is not optimum. Which is when you're nervous, distracted, excited, whatever.
Looking at the RIKA stats, the best shooters I know have a flat line "possible score" for at least half a second before the shot releases to a few tenths after release. Because they employ a simple "squeeze until the shot beaks all by itself" within a relatively narrow window (of optimum hold), they duplicate practice scores in the big matches. There's no fall-off because they are not relying on fine motor control.
Re: Last 200 Milliseconds
Col, I have been thinking on this for some time now. Your #1 and 2 still have a physical action in the mind. With any motor action in thoughts, I don't think the shooter will be in the "zone" or shooters paradise or whatever you call it. I am beginning to explore removing all consciousness of physical action. In those 'milliseconds', I am trying to shift my mind to a level different from conscious thought on motor actions. Maybe some people would call this becoming the observer, and the mind does the rest. The best I can detail what I mean is this example: "OK mind, I have everything physically in place as best I know how, now mind, you take over, and I will monitor."Steve Swartz wrote:An off-line discussion on training, shot plans, etc. raised the question as to what exactly is happening in hte last 200 milliseconds (the "Moment of Truth") before the "hammer" falls.
Two possible scenarios were proposed, but I'd be intersted in a wider set of opinions.
Assume fundamentally proper technique, adn all conditions for the perfect 10 have been established- sight alignment is perfect, the sight picture is settled in to the minimum arc of movement in hte aiming area, and the shooter is mesmerized by the front sight. Then:
1) The shooter makes a conscious decision to apply swift, smooth perfect trigger pressure and subconsciously the sights are "steered" into the sweet spot;
OR
2) The shooter consciously maintains perfect alignment, "authorizes" the shot, and the swift, smooth, perfect trigger pressure is subconsciously timed to release the shot at the right moment before the sights wobble through the sweet spot.
This might be a "philosophical" question, but is not a "rhetorical" one. Some training plan and shot plan issues hang in the balance!
Right or wrong, these things have not hurt my shooting. However, I can't claim success either. I do not have the physical skills down pat yet. My bodies condition is not as fit as I would like, and my hold suffers from that. My eye needs more discipline to stay locked on the sight. And I need to train and practice much much more.
I almost hesitate to expose myself to being a rebel. I do not totally subscribe to the "shot plan" concept. I see such as another conscious thing that can block the mind from controling the shot. The so called plan can be made up as a knowledge base, but must be let go after a certain point in those "milliseconds" we speak of in this topic. On review of a shot do we review what we did right or wrong according to a list? Or do we review what the mind saw, and with our knowledge, analyse that?
To me the shot plan should act as conscious trigger for the unconscious. The actual shot release should occur during a single word or phase of the shot plan so you should have no conscious block. That 'word' should help focus the mind and trigger the subconscious into action and shot release.jackh wrote:I almost hesitate to expose myself to being a rebel. I do not totally subscribe to the "shot plan" concept. I see such as another conscious thing that can block the mind from controling the shot. The so called plan can be made up as a knowledge base, but must be let go after a certain point in those "milliseconds" we speak of in this topic. On review of a shot do we review what we did right or wrong according to a list? Or do we review what the mind saw, and with our knowledge, analyse that?
As for post shot analysis it should be very little (especially during competitions). Just simply 'technically good shot' or 'not good'. Forget the poor shot and focus on the next shot and run through the normal shot routine to produce a technically good shot. In training we can analyse in more detail the problem areas but still focus on the positive - i.e. don't think 'I keep snatching'.
Rob.
200 ms.
This time I agree with David L. As a 3P SB shooter I have experienced many times that shots were fired totally uncontrolled - no concious act/thought by either the hands (pulling the rifle tot the target) or the triggervinger (pulling the trigger). Shots braek totally by surprise and after a certain aiming time whether the sight picture looks good or bad. Many times the shot is better than estimated. In these cases the subconcious works faster than the concious part of the mind and decides to activate my triggervinger after receiving the correct sightpicture from the eyes. I understand from the books that this is some kind of "shortcircuit" in the brain where the signal from the eyes entering the brain is recognised at once and takes a shortcut to the triggervinger (conditioned reflex). On the other hand, when sometimes aiming procedure fails and the shot goes of after a certain time its hits somewhere in the 8 ring. The concious part has to process al info and then has to give the order to pull the trigger. this takes aprox. 1/10 ?? of a second, so by the time the concious decision is made the sight picture is bad again. Also many times we estimate the sightpicture at the moment we hear the shot or by the movement of the gun. This also has a delayed time response. This - for me- is the explanation that many unconcious fired shot have a better result than first estimated.
Can anyone agree?
Albert (the Netherlands)
Can anyone agree?
Albert (the Netherlands)
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Ed Hall
Sorry, but I agree with neither scenario...
Although I should probably leave this alone and simply lurk, I feel compelled to provide input.
I'm sorry, Steve, but I would have to suggest that neither of your scenarios is correct. As per Nygord's notes, Frank Green's tapes and several other sources, I would say that if everything is set up perfect as in your preface, and then you initiate the shot, you are too late.
However, there is a transition from conscious to subconscious in shooting just as there is in all the common actions we take for granted. As examples, I offer all the activity of the tongue while chewing and our ability to run up a flight of stairs. If you get your conscious thoughts involved with your tongue motions while eating, you'll likely bite it. And if you try to figure out the roundness of your footpaths while running up stairs, you'll risk tripping. Both of these activities start by the conscious direction to "eat" or "go upstairs" but are then relegated to the subconscious to complete the task.
If we can make shooting a ten as common place to our subconscious as either of the above activities are, then all we have to do is "shoot." Sound familiar?
Now let's migrate back to the initial scenarios. I would tend to suggest that the trigger is part of the same process as the sighting and should not be separated from the activity. I don't like the "swift" description because it gives the "Do it now!" indication we all know is improper. It also implies that the trigger should be quick. Although I agree that a properly applied trigger is, in essence, quicker than a hesitant trigger, it should not be trained as such. The quickness is more a result of, than a catalyst for, proper operation. Additionally, the speed with which the trigger operates is not the key. The key is in the consistency of the operation.
To analogize (a word?) further: Our "ballistic calculating" subconscious is very capable of coinciding future events when fed consistent data. If I rolled a small wagon across the path of several shooters at a distance of say, four meters. The shooters would be able to figure out about where and when to toss an object so it would land in the wagon within a very few attempts. This is because our subconscious calculates the time intervals and makes the necessary decision as to when to throw so coincidence occurs. As long as I move the wagon at a consistent speed, all is well. But being the meany I am, what if I start varying the wagon's speed, or even direction? Now the result becomes pure chance because of the inconsistency of one of the factors. After awhile our subconscious doesn't even try to figure it out.
Back to shooting: If we have a consistent trigger married with a hold pattern that we don't interrupt, our subconscious can very well handle calculating coincidence of the shot activity with all the factors to produce a desired result down range.
Several things need to be present. First, our subconscious needs to know what we want. We have to send it single focused, positive based information. The best method here is focusing on desired ideas like centered hits, visual cues of our interpretation of the perfect sight picture and all the other sensory inputs that point to our desire, that we can imagine. These should all be wrapped up in our visualizations.
Next, we have to provide consistent activity of all our actions so the subconscious can process and come up with formulations for the coincidence. These activities come in the form of how we operate the trigger, how we interpret our sighting system and how we approach the hold. Although not addressed much directly, the hold should be as effortless as possible with all errors being corrected by only the natural movement of the system. By this, I mean that the hold should be a flowing motion of the sighting system over the desired aiming area with no conscious "correction" taking place. This may be a difficult concept for me to project, but the pattern of the hold needs to be pure. If you are "putting" the sights back in the middle, you are destroying that natural pattern. You are also telling the subconscious to "wait a moment." The only error correction that should be happening is at the minute level of all the intricate activity that helps us hold close to still.
Last, we need to be able to let go of the activity and turn it over to the subconscious. After all the work we go through to make everything as consistent as possible, if we don't turn the shot loose to the subconscious, we've just gone back to chance.
I'm not sure how far I've strayed at this point, but feel free to flame/critique/comment...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
I'm sorry, Steve, but I would have to suggest that neither of your scenarios is correct. As per Nygord's notes, Frank Green's tapes and several other sources, I would say that if everything is set up perfect as in your preface, and then you initiate the shot, you are too late.
However, there is a transition from conscious to subconscious in shooting just as there is in all the common actions we take for granted. As examples, I offer all the activity of the tongue while chewing and our ability to run up a flight of stairs. If you get your conscious thoughts involved with your tongue motions while eating, you'll likely bite it. And if you try to figure out the roundness of your footpaths while running up stairs, you'll risk tripping. Both of these activities start by the conscious direction to "eat" or "go upstairs" but are then relegated to the subconscious to complete the task.
If we can make shooting a ten as common place to our subconscious as either of the above activities are, then all we have to do is "shoot." Sound familiar?
Now let's migrate back to the initial scenarios. I would tend to suggest that the trigger is part of the same process as the sighting and should not be separated from the activity. I don't like the "swift" description because it gives the "Do it now!" indication we all know is improper. It also implies that the trigger should be quick. Although I agree that a properly applied trigger is, in essence, quicker than a hesitant trigger, it should not be trained as such. The quickness is more a result of, than a catalyst for, proper operation. Additionally, the speed with which the trigger operates is not the key. The key is in the consistency of the operation.
To analogize (a word?) further: Our "ballistic calculating" subconscious is very capable of coinciding future events when fed consistent data. If I rolled a small wagon across the path of several shooters at a distance of say, four meters. The shooters would be able to figure out about where and when to toss an object so it would land in the wagon within a very few attempts. This is because our subconscious calculates the time intervals and makes the necessary decision as to when to throw so coincidence occurs. As long as I move the wagon at a consistent speed, all is well. But being the meany I am, what if I start varying the wagon's speed, or even direction? Now the result becomes pure chance because of the inconsistency of one of the factors. After awhile our subconscious doesn't even try to figure it out.
Back to shooting: If we have a consistent trigger married with a hold pattern that we don't interrupt, our subconscious can very well handle calculating coincidence of the shot activity with all the factors to produce a desired result down range.
Several things need to be present. First, our subconscious needs to know what we want. We have to send it single focused, positive based information. The best method here is focusing on desired ideas like centered hits, visual cues of our interpretation of the perfect sight picture and all the other sensory inputs that point to our desire, that we can imagine. These should all be wrapped up in our visualizations.
Next, we have to provide consistent activity of all our actions so the subconscious can process and come up with formulations for the coincidence. These activities come in the form of how we operate the trigger, how we interpret our sighting system and how we approach the hold. Although not addressed much directly, the hold should be as effortless as possible with all errors being corrected by only the natural movement of the system. By this, I mean that the hold should be a flowing motion of the sighting system over the desired aiming area with no conscious "correction" taking place. This may be a difficult concept for me to project, but the pattern of the hold needs to be pure. If you are "putting" the sights back in the middle, you are destroying that natural pattern. You are also telling the subconscious to "wait a moment." The only error correction that should be happening is at the minute level of all the intricate activity that helps us hold close to still.
Last, we need to be able to let go of the activity and turn it over to the subconscious. After all the work we go through to make everything as consistent as possible, if we don't turn the shot loose to the subconscious, we've just gone back to chance.
I'm not sure how far I've strayed at this point, but feel free to flame/critique/comment...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
-
Steve Swartz
Ed:
Glad to see you chime in! What I always find surprising (every time it inevitably happens; go figure!) is how different people read the same words differently and then ending up violently agreeing with something. Interesting thread; and I can't find anything that I really disagree with- it seems to be a matter of subtle differences in interpretation.
Anyhow- in the original post- the assumption was that ". . . fundamentally proper technique, and all conditions for the perfect 10 have been established- sight alignment is perfect, the sight picture is settled in to the minimum arc of movement in the aiming area, and the shooter is mesmerized by the front sight."
In other words, your shot plan sets the conditions for the perfect shot every time. By "perfect shot" there is an implied assumption that some components of the MoT will be (should be-must be) handled at the semi-autonomic (re: breathing) and/or sub-conscious (re: heart beating?) levels.
So let's consider
a) Alignment, Aim, and Trigger are ALL sub-conscious
b) AA&T are ALL conscious
c) Some middle ground
O.K., we can all agree that b) is always the wrong answer. But between a) and c), what is really going on for the consistent "Deep 10s" we all seek?
I am leaning against a) for safety reasons and do-ability. I'm not sure the act of "Aiming" can ever be truly below consciousness? I'm pretty sure Trigger can be at least semi-autonomic with training. What about Alignment?
Steve the Student
Glad to see you chime in! What I always find surprising (every time it inevitably happens; go figure!) is how different people read the same words differently and then ending up violently agreeing with something. Interesting thread; and I can't find anything that I really disagree with- it seems to be a matter of subtle differences in interpretation.
Anyhow- in the original post- the assumption was that ". . . fundamentally proper technique, and all conditions for the perfect 10 have been established- sight alignment is perfect, the sight picture is settled in to the minimum arc of movement in the aiming area, and the shooter is mesmerized by the front sight."
In other words, your shot plan sets the conditions for the perfect shot every time. By "perfect shot" there is an implied assumption that some components of the MoT will be (should be-must be) handled at the semi-autonomic (re: breathing) and/or sub-conscious (re: heart beating?) levels.
So let's consider
a) Alignment, Aim, and Trigger are ALL sub-conscious
b) AA&T are ALL conscious
c) Some middle ground
O.K., we can all agree that b) is always the wrong answer. But between a) and c), what is really going on for the consistent "Deep 10s" we all seek?
I am leaning against a) for safety reasons and do-ability. I'm not sure the act of "Aiming" can ever be truly below consciousness? I'm pretty sure Trigger can be at least semi-autonomic with training. What about Alignment?
Steve the Student
-
Ed Hall
Hi Steve,
The reason we see things from different viewpoints is, of course, because we come from different environments, no matter how similar. As technically correct and semantically designed as I try to make my messages, I can never be sure of the true receipt. Memories of the verbal chain message drill come to mind.
Let's look at my examples from above briefly: If we initiate an eating sequence by taking a bite from an apple, we are aware of the fact we are eating. We are enjoying the taste as each compression releases new levels of flavor to our buds. Consciously, we know we're eating and subconsciously all the intricate movements are making it happen. Now, let's add in that we notice the taste/texture is somewhat different from expected during a compression, and we look at the remainder of the apple in our hand to discover "part" of a worm. We are able at this point to stop the activity, or consider it extra protein and continue. We are an "observer" in the true sense of bearing witness with more than just the visual sense involved, but we are also able to interrupt the activity.
Now back to shooting, which is already in progress: If we apply the same thinking to our shot, we come up with a scenario where we initiate a shot and then witness the activity as the process unfolds. We still have the capability of stopping the process, if warranted, but if we stay out of it, the subconscious should take us through completion.
I would tend toward your a), but with a different view from yours. Although we have relegated all the intricacies to the subconscious, it doesn't mean we can't abort if necessary. Most of the driving actions we perform are subconscious once we learn to drive, but we can still build in safety responses and slam on the brakes, if needed. In fact, the more data we allow our subconscious to digest, the more we may find it reacts to situations before we knew they existed.
Let's examine each of your three sub-actions:
Alignment - the textbook says to align the front with the rear such that the tops are equal and the light on both sides are equal. This is not an absolute. This is a starting point and nearly all shooters will give this as a description. But what if you want to be different and place the front sight halfway below the top of the rear sight? It doesn't really matter if you can do it consistently and this is the image you tell your subconscious to work with. As long as the subconscious has an opportunity to study the alignment it can take care of it quite well.
Aim - the textbook is varied on this one. We can just about aim where we want to and adjust our sights for the hits. In fact, in High Power, you might be aiming at your neighbor's target. As long as you are consistent, there is no textbook "correct aim." But again, this is quite achievable, left to the subconscious to perform. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, if the conscious effort keeps fixing the aim, the subconscious effort will fail, because it can't keep up with changing input.
Trigger - the textbook gives all kinds of adverbs for this motion. Some even seem to conflict. What actually is a Constant Increase? Again, an activity that the subconscious can study and make use of if we will only let it. If we can train ourselves to observe and let our subconscious take us in the direction of our desires, our training sessions will be more rewarding and less taxing on our emotions.
I would submit that our conscious effort in trying to direct our subconscious in what to do is the real hindrance to our progression. We judge all our activities and then provide suggestions for how to change everything. If we could observe the outcome of our efforts nonjudgmentally while allowing our subconscious to study what does what, and then suggest to our subconscious only what outcome we are looking for, I bet our subconscious could go ahead and direct the entire activity.
I would suggest training to be consistent with letting the subconscious study the effects of its own actions without judging good/bad, and only suggesting a direction of desire with visualiztion. And then become a casual observer to the process.
A true perfect shot, in my opinion, would be one which was conducted by the subconscious based on an initiation from the conscious which then stood by and observed. Would it always be a ten? Do we ever dribble when we drink from a glass?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
The reason we see things from different viewpoints is, of course, because we come from different environments, no matter how similar. As technically correct and semantically designed as I try to make my messages, I can never be sure of the true receipt. Memories of the verbal chain message drill come to mind.
Let's look at my examples from above briefly: If we initiate an eating sequence by taking a bite from an apple, we are aware of the fact we are eating. We are enjoying the taste as each compression releases new levels of flavor to our buds. Consciously, we know we're eating and subconsciously all the intricate movements are making it happen. Now, let's add in that we notice the taste/texture is somewhat different from expected during a compression, and we look at the remainder of the apple in our hand to discover "part" of a worm. We are able at this point to stop the activity, or consider it extra protein and continue. We are an "observer" in the true sense of bearing witness with more than just the visual sense involved, but we are also able to interrupt the activity.
Now back to shooting, which is already in progress: If we apply the same thinking to our shot, we come up with a scenario where we initiate a shot and then witness the activity as the process unfolds. We still have the capability of stopping the process, if warranted, but if we stay out of it, the subconscious should take us through completion.
I would tend toward your a), but with a different view from yours. Although we have relegated all the intricacies to the subconscious, it doesn't mean we can't abort if necessary. Most of the driving actions we perform are subconscious once we learn to drive, but we can still build in safety responses and slam on the brakes, if needed. In fact, the more data we allow our subconscious to digest, the more we may find it reacts to situations before we knew they existed.
Let's examine each of your three sub-actions:
Alignment - the textbook says to align the front with the rear such that the tops are equal and the light on both sides are equal. This is not an absolute. This is a starting point and nearly all shooters will give this as a description. But what if you want to be different and place the front sight halfway below the top of the rear sight? It doesn't really matter if you can do it consistently and this is the image you tell your subconscious to work with. As long as the subconscious has an opportunity to study the alignment it can take care of it quite well.
Aim - the textbook is varied on this one. We can just about aim where we want to and adjust our sights for the hits. In fact, in High Power, you might be aiming at your neighbor's target. As long as you are consistent, there is no textbook "correct aim." But again, this is quite achievable, left to the subconscious to perform. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, if the conscious effort keeps fixing the aim, the subconscious effort will fail, because it can't keep up with changing input.
Trigger - the textbook gives all kinds of adverbs for this motion. Some even seem to conflict. What actually is a Constant Increase? Again, an activity that the subconscious can study and make use of if we will only let it. If we can train ourselves to observe and let our subconscious take us in the direction of our desires, our training sessions will be more rewarding and less taxing on our emotions.
I would submit that our conscious effort in trying to direct our subconscious in what to do is the real hindrance to our progression. We judge all our activities and then provide suggestions for how to change everything. If we could observe the outcome of our efforts nonjudgmentally while allowing our subconscious to study what does what, and then suggest to our subconscious only what outcome we are looking for, I bet our subconscious could go ahead and direct the entire activity.
I would suggest training to be consistent with letting the subconscious study the effects of its own actions without judging good/bad, and only suggesting a direction of desire with visualiztion. And then become a casual observer to the process.
A true perfect shot, in my opinion, would be one which was conducted by the subconscious based on an initiation from the conscious which then stood by and observed. Would it always be a ten? Do we ever dribble when we drink from a glass?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/
what Ed wrote:
Last, we need to be able to let go of the activity and turn it over to the subconscious. After all the work we go through to make everything as consistent as possible, if we don't turn the shot loose to the subconscious, we've just gone back to chance.
what i think:
First we must approach the activity with the highest level of concentration possible, going through all the elements necessary in order to make everything as consistant as possible. Only then can a consious effort be made to initiate all the prerequisites of placing a center shot , if left to the subconsious we are back to random errors
Last, we need to be able to let go of the activity and turn it over to the subconscious. After all the work we go through to make everything as consistent as possible, if we don't turn the shot loose to the subconscious, we've just gone back to chance.
what i think:
First we must approach the activity with the highest level of concentration possible, going through all the elements necessary in order to make everything as consistant as possible. Only then can a consious effort be made to initiate all the prerequisites of placing a center shot , if left to the subconsious we are back to random errors
Last edited by mikej on Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
You train the conscious mind and at the same time train the subconscious. Since you can only concentrate on a single thing at a time you can't shoot 100% consciously. You can focus on one element although I suspect what most of us do is flit between aspects. If you can trust to your subconscious to let the shots go you will shoot better; You can focus on the sight picture and let the trigger finger do it's stuff.mikej wrote:what Ed wrote:
what i think:
First we must approach the activity with the highest level of concentration possible, going through all the elements necessary in order to make everything as consistant as possible. Only then can a consious effort be made to initiate all the prerequisites of placing a center shot , if left to the subconsious we are back to random errors
Rob.
-
CR10XGuest
I kinda agree with Ed, specifically:
So for each shot, I'm striving to be trusting enough to allow the shot to go off, with just enough control to cancel the shot (I hate the word abort) if the visual and tactical cues are not consistent with a center shot.
I agree and try to let my shot process (when training) take this into account. For example as Tubbs says " Shot the shot when the sights are moving TOWARDS the center." For this part of shooting, my traiing is centered towards getting consistent and decreasing arc of movement and getting the process to competion during that time. When "shooting" I just monitor to let the shot execute within this time frame or abort the shot.To analogize (a word?) further: Our "ballistic calculating" subconscious is very capable of coinciding future events when fed consistent data. If I rolled a small wagon across the path of several shooters at a distance of say, four meters. The shooters would be able to figure out about where and when to toss an object so it would land in the wagon within a very few attempts. This is because our subconscious calculates the time intervals and makes the necessary decision as to when to throw so coincidence occurs. As long as I move the wagon at a consistent speed, all is well. But being the meany I am, what if I start varying the wagon's speed, or even direction? Now the result becomes pure chance because of the inconsistency of one of the factors. After awhile our subconscious doesn't even try to figure it out.
So for each shot, I'm striving to be trusting enough to allow the shot to go off, with just enough control to cancel the shot (I hate the word abort) if the visual and tactical cues are not consistent with a center shot.
When I review these responses here, I can see that everyone is meaning the same thing, but from different perspectives.
"Don't think, just shoot" without explanation and coaching, is not very useful to me while on my learning curve. A good share of us do not have coaches. We will never even see let alone use an electronic trainer. The perspective of a shooter training solo is different from others. On boards like this and others each question gets maybe 12 answers from 8 different people. Each one giving us something to THINK about and look for the common idea. The point of each post here is about not consciously thinking the shot to center. It is about transitioning to not guiding any shooting element consciously , and to get the subconscious to take over. I guess this is what LtCol Miller meant 30 some years ago with "Empty your mind and let the sighting arrow and triggering arrow each fly land in the same place" [or something like that].
Also there are shooters from different disciplines here. I know this board is primarily for International shooters. My shooting is primarily NRA bullseye, but I do train with an Hammerli 480k AP. (Not enough unfortunately). I'm sure bullseye dot sights and hardball recoil adds another perspective difference from most International shooting.
"Don't think, just shoot" without explanation and coaching, is not very useful to me while on my learning curve. A good share of us do not have coaches. We will never even see let alone use an electronic trainer. The perspective of a shooter training solo is different from others. On boards like this and others each question gets maybe 12 answers from 8 different people. Each one giving us something to THINK about and look for the common idea. The point of each post here is about not consciously thinking the shot to center. It is about transitioning to not guiding any shooting element consciously , and to get the subconscious to take over. I guess this is what LtCol Miller meant 30 some years ago with "Empty your mind and let the sighting arrow and triggering arrow each fly land in the same place" [or something like that].
Also there are shooters from different disciplines here. I know this board is primarily for International shooters. My shooting is primarily NRA bullseye, but I do train with an Hammerli 480k AP. (Not enough unfortunately). I'm sure bullseye dot sights and hardball recoil adds another perspective difference from most International shooting.
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Guest
The unfortunate thing about "just shoot" is that while you are practicing the perfect 10 shot, you are also shooting a lot of 8s and 9s. The Zen aspect of "becoming the shot" or the 'hard wiring" of the conditioned reflex is being built aroung a lot of 8s and 9s also. If you bite your cheek while eating or you trip while going upstairs, you have positive and forcefull negitave reinforcement to correct your error. This is absent during shooting practice unless you have someone smack you everytime you don't shoot a ten. Or am I totaly wrong???