Position of SCATT optical sensor on the barrel

[Haleva]

Hey,
I wanted to know if the position of the optical sensor is meaningfull.
It seems to me that when the sensor is not positioned at the end of the barrel the results are lifted dramaticlly, specially when you shoot FP simulating 50m (using SCATT USB at 6m).

If anyone has some rule of thumbs for using the SCATT for FP I will be happy to know (I don't want to make begginers errors)

Thanks

[Reinhamre]

The extra weight does the difference. If fastend as far back as possible the weight is more in your hand. Or, keep it in front and develop a stronger arm and wrist. Mail me a file of yours. What pistol do you use?

Kent

[Haleva]

Hi Kent,

I'll be happy to send you a file, but it seems that it is more than the extra weight. I'm using an old hammerli 120 which is quit heavy piece (it weigh 1.5 KG). It seems that becuase the sensor is not at the end of the barrel , the barrel mistakes are less than they are in reality.

Avi Haleva

[PaulT]

1.5kg, wow, that is a lot, I thought the UK Morini 84e with the rear balance bars (to make them legal in the UK mainland!) was a lot at 1.4kg.
I have an older SCATT unit with the COM port and I believe a ?lighter? sensor. I always fix it as near to the hand as possible. When I shoot SCATT on the air pistol, I remove the weights as this are identical to the SCATT unit and position so forward balance is also identical. With the free, we can not do this as I don’t think you have a front weight on the Hammerli. I agree the weight lifting may assist a general programme but to simulate shooting as near as possible is the optimal and I would go for length of quality hold with your gun than over cooking the weight lifting. I have found smoothness and quality of hold –v- power lifting a better return on effort but everybody is different and would be interested in others views as well.

I would suggest shooting at 10m rather than closer as the parallel –v- angular errors will be magnified all the more than they already are. It also provides an easy divide by five for trance length comparison with your 10m air pistol –v- 50m free pistol. Having said that, if 10m is not available, any training is better than no training and an interesting diversion from snapping at a blank wall. I have done a fair amount of FP training just aiming at the wall and separated this from the aiming/triggering/breathing technical stuff SCATT is great at looking at. Some earlier posts refer to the “snatch factor” (the unlabeled column) and this is again a multiple of the 10m equivalent. The numbers alone are meaningless but you can draw conclusions on your own shooting performance as the trace length and other metrics for self improvement are great. I am fortunate that I have access to people who know how to interpret SCATT files and know my shooting with pet technique weaknesses.

I take the “50m” FP scores with a pinch of salt and focus on the stability, aim and triggering as the angular –v- parallel is huge and I find it far easier to shoot 10’s at 50m than 10m.

[Reinhamre]

I have access to people who know how to interpret SCATT files and know my shooting with pet technique weaknesses.

PaulT,
Could you perhaps share some of your knowledge with me? I have a file on the SCATT site:
http://ematch.scatt.com/?e=SBP50&s=Kent+Reinhamre

A diagnose would be much appreciated. My mail address is below. Thanks.

Kent

[David Levene]

Kent

I have taken the liberty of emailing you on this.

[Haleva]

Hi,

here is a link to my fp scatt file
http://ematch.scatt.com/?e=SBP50&s=Avi
I'll be happy to get some input . I started shooting FP 3 month ago and unfortuntly I don't do it quite often (every two weeks and so) , Now with the scatt I plan to do it more often (hopefully 2 times a week).

Every input will be appreciated !!

Thanks

[Reinhamre]

Can we discuss the file from Haleva here?

After the shoot the pistol seams to go in different directions every time
(se show all traces on the menu). This does not seam to be the case for me. I suggested that follow trouh can be improved.

Like to here an opinion from a more experienced person.

Kent

[David Levene]

Although I have emailed Avi with a few comments, I never feel it appropriate to discuss a file with anyone other than the shooter or his coach. It just doesn't feel right.

[Reinhamre]

I understand.

The file was public. The question was public. We could have learnt what it says. But, OK.

Kent

[PaulT]

Kent,

I have just picked up the thread, apologies, occasionally work gets in the way of shooting! David is far better qualified to comment than I on these and he was one of the two people who kindly evaluate my own files! I agree, a public forum is not a good place to compare traces etc.

It may be worth comparing trace length and what I called the “snatch factor” with the AP traces as parallel/angular error may confuse the issue for the short distance free pistol shooting. I also compare with traces and live fire groups shot at 50m to asses if training is representative. If the shooting is at 10m, the length and snatch look similar to my own although I start at the top of the target, pick up the sights and drop-down through the black, park and smooth the trigger with constant increase in pressure – basically the old Russian approach and this gives me more vertical groups. Looking at ISSF video footage, many world class shooters use the aiming method you use. Would like to see some of their traces as most of the data available is rifle or older air pistol!

I would be interested to know if many others shoot SCATT for FP.

Did you place the sensor near the stock and did the addition of the sensor make much of an impact to the stability and ability to hold over a match?

Paul

[Reinhamre]

PaulT,

The FP 10 is a rather light pistol and I have the sensor as far back as possible. It does not disturb the balance. The core must be fastened to my arm.
I think the result at 10 meters correspond rather well to "real" 50 m shooting, the result of a bad shots is the same. On the range a 10 is always due to the skill of the shooter but at home with Scatt a 10 is many times revealed as just pure luck.

Dry fire and shooting on a range with others is good too but as we have snow, darkness and temperature below - 10C for many months a year an electronic devise is well spent money. And I use mine for flintlock pistol too.

Kent

[David Levene]

And I use mine for flintlock pistol too.

Thanks Kent, I now have coffee all over my keyboard ;-)

Out of interest, does the lock mechanism operating have much affect on the trace speed and direction.

[Pär Hylander]

And I use mine for flintlock pistol too.

Thanks Kent, I now have coffee all over my keyboard ;-)

Out of interest, does the lock mechanism operating have much affect on the trace speed and direction.

:-))

Does the Scatt trigger the same way as the Noptel, via vibration sensing? If so, the slow "locking" (incl time for the priming powder to burn into the chamber) will not be represented correctly. Time from discharge to ignition of main powder for a flintlock is probably a couple of tenth of seconds, but the time for the "hammer" to fall is much less. It is probably the hammer impulse that will trigger the electronics.

[David Levene]

Does the Scatt trigger the same way as the Noptel, via vibration sensing? If so, the slow "locking" (incl time for the priming powder to burn into the chamber) will not be represented correctly. Time from discharge to ignition of main powder for a flintlock is probably a couple of tenth of seconds, but the time for the "hammer" to fall is much less. It is probably the hammer impulse that will trigger the electronics.

Scatt uses a microphone to sense the trigger release. It is adjustable so that the slightest noise can be made to register. I have seen cases where someone talking behind the shooter registered as a shot. Obviously the microphone had been set too fine.

[Reinhamre]

Hi,

I have sent file to David Levene. He understands what is different from my other scatt files and I hope he will tell us what differs.

Remember that flintlock pistol has a long sight line and a set trigger.
They sure knew target shooting in the 18th century!

http://home.brikks.com/reinhamre/flintlock.scatt



Kent

[David Levene]

Kent

I really just have one question looking at your file, how the heck does anyone manage to accurately shoot a gun that has so much disturbance when the trigger breaks. I can only assume that the recoil when firing live will counteract it.

Comparing the trace with the only other 25m one I have of yours, the SIG 210, it is obvious that the trace length is approximately 10% greater. This is coupled with a worse stability of aiming (by about 25%). It would be very easy to say that this is caused by the worse balance of the flintlock BUT, whilst that may be the cause, 13 shots from 1 gun and 30 shots from the other is not really a large enough sample to make firm comparisons.

The "snatch factor" (last column) on the flintlock is a bit larger than with the SIG. Once again, too small a sample to be definite but I cannot see any great problem with your trigger release. The increase could be caused by trigger design, trigger position, trigger quality, trigger technique etc etc.

Hope these brief comments help.

[Pär Hylander]

Does the Scatt trigger the same way as the Noptel, via vibration sensing? If so, the slow "locking" (incl time for the priming powder to burn into the chamber) will not be represented correctly. Time from discharge to ignition of main powder for a flintlock is probably a couple of tenth of seconds, but the time for the "hammer" to fall is much less. It is probably the hammer impulse that will trigger the electronics.

Scatt uses a microphone to sense the trigger release. It is adjustable so that the slightest noise can be made to register. I have seen cases where someone talking behind the shooter registered as a shot. Obviously the microphone had been set too fine.

Ok, then the time for a flintlock ;-) will not be representative when using the Scatt.

I have not used the scatt at all, but have used Noptel for rapid fire. The weight of the unit (120 g ?) is so severe that I consider it more or less useless. Therefore I made a lighter barrel to my Pardini GP's.

[David Levene]

Ok, then the time for a flintlock ;-) will not be representative when using the Scatt.

I have not used the scatt at all, but have used Noptel for rapid fire. The weight of the unit (120 g ?) is so severe that I consider it more or less useless. Therefore I made a lighter barrel to my Pardini GP's.

What amazed me was the amount of disturbance caused by the lock mechanism operating. OK, I have only worked with top class ISSF pistols before so it shouldn't have come as a surprise I suppose.

I understand that the transmitter/sensor on the latest Noptel has been reduced in weight, just under 100g I believe. That still makes it quite a bit heavier than the Scatt's sensor at about 35g including the fixing clamp.

[Marcus]

Ok, then the time for a flintlock ;-) will not be representative when using the Scatt.

The Scatt software accounts for the various factors such as delay, time of flight, velocity, etc. through the use of the "F-coefficient"

The value of that factor can be adjusted by the user in the range from 0 to 500. I do not know the units, but it might be milliseconds. The typical value for air rifle is 45 and for smallbore rifle is ~65.

The result of using a large number (like 400-500) is that the shot is displaced and strikes the target farther from the point of trigger pull in the direction that the gun was moving at the moment of trigger pull. While this may not be the ideal situation for simulation of long lock-time guns, it certainly would help with follow-through ;>)