SP rapid fire rule question

[trinity]

Hi everyone,

Talking with a fellow shooter over the weekend, an interesting question was raised: are you allowed, in SP rapid fire (or duello), in between shots, to break the 45 degree angle, use your off hand to adjust your grip, and return to the 45 degree angle before the light turns green (or beeps) for the next shot?

When I first heard this, I thought it couldn't possibly be legal, because when you adjust the grip with your other hand, you are resting your shoulder, which is an unfair advantage.

What do the resident experts think?

[David Levene]

I can see nothing in the rules that would stop you doing this.

Providing that the shooter is stationary in the ready position before the targets appear (8.6.4.9.3.4), does not rest the pistol on the bench (8.6.4.9.3.5) and the pistol is kept pointing downrange within the target backstop area while adjusting the grip (8.6.1.2) then there should be no problem. It is just the same as using the free hand to cock a revolver.

[trinity]

I can see nothing in the rules that would stop you doing this.

Providing that the shooter is stationary in the ready position before the targets appear (8.6.4.9.3.4), does not rest the pistol on the bench (8.6.4.9.3.5) and the pistol is kept pointing downrange within the target backstop area while adjusting the grip (8.6.1.2) then there should be no problem. It is just the same as using the free hand to cock a revolver.

So I could in fact, in the 7 second pause in between shots, use my other hand to support the pistol, as long as I return to the ready position before the next target is shown?

Interesting, I suppose the only reason people don't do this is you are breaking your position, but it certainly helps the strain on the shoulders.

I suppose by the same token, I can rest my arm on my leg (so the pistol is pointed down towards the ground) for a few seconds, as long as I return to the ready position in time?

Thanks again.

[David Levene]

So I could in fact, in the 7 second pause in between shots, use my other hand to support the pistol, as long as I return to the ready position before the next target is shown?

Interesting, I suppose the only reason people don't do this is you are breaking your position, but it certainly helps the strain on the shoulders.

I suppose by the same token, I can rest my arm on my leg (so the pistol is pointed down towards the ground) for a few seconds, as long as I return to the ready position in time?

I can see nothing in the rules to stop you using your other hand to support the pistol for a short time as you describe, provided that the pistol is kept pointing down range and within the target backstop area as required by 8.6.1.2. It is this requirement that would stop you from pointing the gun at the ground by resting your arm on your leg.

The gun must be pointed at the bullet backstop area or you must be at, or going to, the ready position.

Under 8.6.1.3 "In the READY position, the shooter's arm must point downward at an angle of not greater than 45 degrees from the vertical, but must not be pointed at the ground within the forward edge of the firing point."

[Mikey]

If you are shooting with a revolver you have to break that stance anyway to cock the hammer.

oopps this is Standard and not Centrefire

Mikey

[bjornar]

So I could in fact, in the 7 second pause in between shots, use my other hand to support the pistol, as long as I return to the ready position before the next target is shown?

No, I think you cannot. 8.6.1.1. : "...The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...." .

Bjørnar

[Spencer C]

So I could in fact, in the 7 second pause in between shots, use my other hand to support the pistol, as long as I return to the ready position before the next target is shown?

No, I think you cannot. 8.6.1.1. : "...The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...." .

Bjørnar

What an interesting 'extension' of the intent of the rules.

S

[IK]

My understanding of "...The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...." is it has to be HELD with one hand DURING firing action, not in between shots.

[Guest]

My understanding of "...The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...." is it has to be HELD with one hand DURING firing action, not in between shots.

what a common-sense attitude

S

[David Levene]

My understanding of "...The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...." is it has to be HELD with one hand DURING firing action, not in between shots.

I think that is the only sensible interpretation.

[bjornar]

My opinion as a judge (no international experience):
I think it is quite obvious that you can not support the pistol with your second hand during a rapid fire series in the duelling stage in 25 m pistol. My arguments:

1. The ”intention of the rules” in all ISSF pistol shooting is unsuported shooting with one hand.
2. A rapid fire series is not the same as 5 single shot, but a continus from the ”attention” until the last red light. And 8.6.1.1. (”The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...”. apply the whole time period.
3. A part of the challenge of this rapid fire stage is to keep your hand unsupported. That is the reason for 8.6.4.7.3.4. (”The pistol must not be rested on the bench...”.


Any judge here with international experience who disagree?

Bjørnar

[David Levene]

My opinion as a judge (no international experience):
I think it is quite obvious that you can not support the pistol with your second hand during a rapid fire series in the duelling stage in 25 m pistol. My arguments:

1. The ”intention of the rules” in all ISSF pistol shooting is unsuported shooting with one hand.
2. A rapid fire series is not the same as 5 single shot, but a continus from the ”attention” until the last red light. And 8.6.1.1. (”The pistol must be HELD and fired with one hand only...”. apply the whole time period.
3. A part of the challenge of this rapid fire stage is to keep your hand unsupported. That is the reason for 8.6.4.7.3.4. (”The pistol must not be rested on the bench...”.


Any judge here with international experience who disagree?

Bjørnar

Like you I have no international experience as a judge. One of the other contributors to this thread, Spencer (also as Guest but signed S) is EXTREMELY experienced and well respected internationally.

You must remember that 8.6.1.1 applies to all ISSF pistol shooting, not just the precision stage or the rapid stage. It must therfore be applied consistently across all ISSF pistol shooting (unless specific rules allow otherwise).

You seem to be suggesting that a shooter using a revolver would not be able to use the free hand to cock the hammer as that action could be construed as supporting the shooting hand.

[bjornar]

You seem to be suggesting that a shooter using a revolver would not be able to use the free hand to cock the hammer as that action could be construed as supporting the shooting hand.

No, David. For me this is two completely different situations. To cock your revolver with your second hand (this take a very short time) is not the same as supporting your pistol with your second hand during the 7 sec. the red light is on in the duelling stage.
This second situation is for me a ”dirty trick”/unfair play and is contrary to the spirit of the ISSF rules.

Bjørnar

[David Levene]

No, David. For me this is two completely different situations. To cock your revolver with your second hand (this take a very short time) is not the same as supporting your pistol with your second hand during the 7 sec. the red light is on in the duelling stage.
This second situation is for me a ”dirty trick”/unfair play and is contrary to the spirit of the ISSF rules.

Would you stop someone who is taking 2 seconds to cock the hammer. How about 3 seconds, or 4 seconds.

How about someone who wants to re-take their grip during a rapid series. Allowed? 2 seconds? 3 seconds?

This is actually going slightly away from the main point. Rule 8.6.1.1 makes no distinction between between the precision and rapid stages. I cannot therefore see how you can, or why you should, interpret it differently for the 2 stages.

[race1911]

for all intended purposes I believe that a rapid fire series does not have a time break inbetween shots and therefore the full timing session from start to end should be classed as "a single course of fire"...........although unfamiliar with the current rule book anybody attempting to use a second hand as support during the timed section should not be allowed due to "unsportsmanlike conduct"

[David Levene]

...................anybody attempting to use a second hand as support during the timed section should not be allowed due to "unsportsmanlike conduct"

How about using the non-shooting hand to cock a revolver, re-take the grip, check that a round has been chambered in a semi-auto or even cycle a semi-auto after a second (and therefore non-allowable) malfunction.

If any of these are allowed then what is the frequency or time limit before it becomes supporting the pistol.

[bjornar]

How about using the non-shooting hand to cock a revolver, re-take the grip, check that a round has been chambered in a semi-auto or even cycle a semi-auto after a second (and therefore non-allowable) malfunction.

If any of these are allowed then what is the frequency or time limit before it becomes supporting the pistol.

I think that as a jury member you will have no problem to see if the shooters intention is to support (resting) his arm or he is just quickly cocking his revolver/cycle a semi-auto! As a judge/jury member you will have to make such decisions!
But I think we have a case here as mentioned in 6.4.3 (rules that ISSF has to clarify).

Bjørnar

[deleted1]

Unless I am getting older by the second---in SP (Standard Pistol) we have three stages--- Slow (Precision), 20 second, 10 second---the "Duello" appears as the "rapid fire" stage in Women's Sport Pistol and the Centre Fire Match as well. Or am I totally crazy and ready for the nursing home.

[bjornar]

Unless I am getting older by the second---in SP (Standard Pistol) we have three stages--- Slow (Precision), 20 second, 10 second---the "Duello" appears as the "rapid fire" stage in Women's Sport Pistol and the Centre Fire Match as well. Or am I totally crazy and ready for the nursing home.

We are talking about Sport Pistol, rapid fire stage ("Duello").

[David Levene]

Or am I totally crazy and ready for the nursing home.

I can't answer that I'm afraid ;-) (sorry, couldn't resist it)

Seriously though SP is quite often used as an abbreviation for Sport Pistol, which of course is now more correctly known as 25m Pistol. Using that same range of abbreviations, Standard Pistol becomes StP.

Going back to the main point, I would be more convinced that there is a problem if:-

8.6.1.1 gave an indication that rapid stages should be treated differently from precision stages.
or
8.6.1.2 or 8.6.1.3 gave an indication that the rapid stage should be treated as anything other than 5 individual shots.