Newbie Question re authorized equipment

[FastBoneDoc]

I just came back from my boys' first airgun league session. It is NRA driven/derived. Is there a primer written on what guns are allowed in the various matches? They went thru 5 position shooting.
The boys are 9 and 11 yrs old.
I see terms like sporter and precision. Is one gun allowed in both or are these guns used in totally different disciplines?

I'd like to get them a gun that they can really get used to.

[Jay V]

I just came back from my boys' first airgun league session. It is NRA driven/derived. Is there a primer written on what guns are allowed in the various matches? They went thru 5 position shooting.
The boys are 9 and 11 yrs old.
I see terms like sporter and precision. Is one gun allowed in both or are these guns used in totally different disciplines?

I'd like to get them a gun that they can really get used to.

The best place to start is 3P (prone, standing, kneeling) sporter air rifle. It's one of the largest junior rifle programs out there. Your basic choices for equipment are the Daisy 888 or Daisy XS-40 Valiant. The 888 is CO2 powered, the Valiant is compressed air.

Our club has 12 Valiants and 5 888s. Starting from scratch, I would have more 888s and less Valiants. The 888 is about half the price, and is sturdier and more accurate. It lacks the cheekpiece adjustments of the Valiant, but it is legal to build-up the cheekpiece - so it's not a big deal. Almost all of the top sporter teams at the Junior Olympics use 888s. They hold a lot of CO2, so they are easy to keep going for a club. The trigger does need some work to get down around 2 pounds (legal min is 1.5, stock is about 4 with a lot of travel). Not real difficult, but it takes some mechanical ability.

Precision 3P air rifle is the next step (it's a big one). There you can use almost any competition air rifle. Most all have an Olympic-quality gun and a bunch of specially-fitted shooting clothing and boots - a big investment. Shooters entering precision-class should be seasoned, top-notch, sporter air rifle competitors in my opinion.

If your club is CMP affiliated you can get 888s from them at a reduced price. If not, talk to Pilkington at (931) 924-3400 for a good deal.


Jay V
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org

[pdeal]

I disagree with Jay a little. I think it depends on what type of competition is going on in your area. In our area there is no sporter other than in the high schools and their matches are only open to other school teams. There is quite a bit of precision activity going on though. So if you are in our situation I disagree that sporter is the place to start. The precision air rifles are quite a bit more cost than sporter. You can shoot precision with a sporter as a way to get started. You don't need all the equipment to start. We are running a precision pto this week and will have several shooters who have only been shooting for a month or two and all they will have is a rifle and a glove. I'd say to look what is going on at the club that you are involved with and see what they are using. You don't need to jump in and buy it all at once you can spread your purchases out over several years.

[Pat McCoy]

You should also visit the CMP website at http://www.odcmp.com/ to download the rules.

[FastBoneDoc]

Thanks for the info and leads!
I did a little reading after posting.

I see mention of the Tech Force rifles. Are these generally allowed by the powers that be, or is permission granted by the match organizers? I think out club has a few Brno (sp?) brand rifles; no Daisy's.

I see iron sights are required. Are blade sights acceptible like the ones on air pistols, or are peeps the best?

[pdeal]

The Brno's are maybe Tau 200's? We have a few of these in the junior models. Pretty good really for the price. These are precision guns. They are CO2 guns. Blade sights are allowed but the reason they are not generally used is that they are generally not very precise.

[Jay V]

Thanks for the info and leads!
I did a little reading after posting.

I see mention of the Tech Force rifles. Are these generally allowed by the powers that be, or is permission granted by the match organizers? I think out club has a few Brno (sp?) brand rifles; no Daisy's.

I see iron sights are required. Are blade sights acceptible like the ones on air pistols, or are peeps the best?

The Tech Force rifles are not allowed. I'm not sure about their quality, but if they can't shoot a ragged 1-hole group (like an 888) they aren't really good enough. The Crosman Challenger 2000 looks the part, but can't shoot a decent group. The Valiant is acceptable, but not as good as the 888 in our tests. Daisy uses Lothar Walther barrels in their 7&8-series pneumatic and CO2 guns and it really makes a difference.

We started with a few TAU-200 jrs also. They are decent rifles, but not legal for sporter and not quite good enough for precision competition. We found them too big and heavy for all but our biggest juniors.

As Pete said, use the aperature/peep sights. Easier and more accurate.

Jay V
IL

[Jay V]

I disagree with Jay a little. I think it depends on what type of competition is going on in your area. In our area there is no sporter other than in the high schools and their matches are only open to other school teams. (SNIP)

Hi Pete,

What is the problem with the local HS teams - not opening the competitons to other sporter teams? Talk to their coaches and see if you can join the party.

We compete against many HS teams, with the farthest about 100 mi down-state. Most of our competitions are 100 mi away or more.


Jay

[jhmartin]

If a local HS facility is not allowing you into competitions, you might ask if they get NRA grants. If they do I believe that they state some type of public access and/or use. If they are violating their stated use in the grants, you may have some leverage.......

See section V below of the grant guidelines ...
===========================
V. RESTRICTIONS ON FUNDING. The following activities or projects are not eligible for funding: * Projects which confer a private benefit upon the members of the applying club or group. * Deficit financing. * Projects for commercial ventures. * Projects which require membership in the NRA or in the applying club or group. (NOTE: Organizations may be private or open only to members, PROVIDED that the project or activity for which funding is sought is open to the public). Applications must demonstrate and document some measurable public benefit to be eligible for funding. * Applications from organization or groups that have not submitted final reports for previously awarded grants.

[pdeal]

I guess I miscommunicated. In our area all the sporter activity tends to be in the high shools. We started out as a smallbore club. We have migrated to a smallbore/air rifle club. I don't plan to give up on smallbore because we love it. There is not, at least in our area, much mixture of smallbore/sporter air. There is a lot of smallbore/precision mixing. As a result that is how we have gone. I see other clubs in our area that do the same. So, because of this I have never sought to shoot with the high school teams since we are already a smallbore/precision club.

I guess the point I would like to make pertaining to this thread is that you should see what is going on in the club that you are participating in and go with that flow. I would also like to make the point that to start a 9-11 year old in precision air you don't have to call your favorite supplier and order $5000 worth of gear to get started. I started my daughter by trading my rem 700 varmint rifle for a p70jr. After that viola! My daughter was a precision air shooter.

[FastBoneDoc]

Just as an aside, Pilkguns does not carry the Daisy 888 any longer. Any reason behind this? Something I should know?

[Jay V]

Just as an aside, Pilkguns does not carry the Daisy 888 any longer. Any reason behind this? Something I should know?

Not really. Daisy sells them direct at the same special price to qualifying junior programs as Pilkington did.

Still the best first gun for any junior interested in learning shoot competitive rifle in my opinion.


Jay V
IL
www.aiac-airguns.org

[A JAYNES]

HI
Does anybody know if the AR30 is going to be a legal for the sporter class
this year ,we may buy some if they can be used in sporter .It would make good use of money for small percisison shooter and maybe a better sporter rifle ,has anybody tested the AR30

[durant7]

Doctor: A lot of good info here which to the someone just starting might be a bit overwhelming. You have got some guys on this board who have established some GREAT programs. I hope some day to have as developed a program! I got a great deal of advice from these folks.

Our youth program (4H) had zippo funding, no range but tons of enthusiastic kids. We cobled together some funds and purchased 4 888s and 2 853s along with 8 499B bb guns but that is for a younger set. After a year of using 888s and 853s I cannot say enough positive for the 888s. Don't bother with the 853 unless they are given to you free or are south of $100. Save your money for an 888 which can be had new for $215 from CMP. The 853 trigger mod is more involved than the 888. The cocking process is far too much effort for young kids. And for prone it becomes even more problematic.

I have shot the XS40 but have not managed a club with them. They are far more refined but but but are still not target guns. At $425 they sure are nce but they are not regulated. For $600 you could find some great used target guns. We're looking to get some XS40s but sometimes I wonder why. I view them as a "tweener" gun.

To start off yes, find out what is happening in your neighborhood and then check your budget. We have put 6 888s on the line and they were busy all last Sunday with kids waiting for their turn. That was $1,300. To do the same with XS40's it would have been $2,600. I'm glad we started small.

As a note about the Walther barreled 888s see this link vs an Anschutz SuperAir. To be fair send me an XS40 and Challenger target and I'll post as well. I think the spirit of this board is 100% inform. Share some targets with me and I'll post them.

http://mysite.verizon.net/durants/images/10pellet.jpg

For more background as to what I was up to and methodology see
http://mysite.verizon.net/durants/Pellet888.htm

[Jay V]

HI
Does anybody know if the AR30 is going to be a legal for the sporter class
this year ,we may buy some if they can be used in sporter .It would make good use of money for small percisison shooter and maybe a better sporter rifle ,has anybody tested the AR30

The Hammerli AR30 will not be allowed in sporter from what I have heard. Hammerli originally tried to produce a top-of-the-line sporter gun, but ended-up with a low-end precision gun. It has some new production-driven features like a 1-piece barrel shroud/cover/fore-end. I handled one at the 3P J.Os, and wasn't impressed.

Just my take on it...


Jay V
IL

[guest]

Hi there,
Here in South Africa we have both the Daisy 888 and the Air Arms
200T {similar to XV 40} and our experience is quite opposite to
that of Jay V.
The 200T outperforms in all respects except number of shots.
The 200T is easy to maintain mainly machined steel { Daisy
has mostly cast components} Excellent parts availability
and service backup.
We even use the 200T in the Prec. and 10m Standing event and
some of our juniors have made the National Team and competed
in the UK. a USA team from The Nat. Guard under Dave Woodard
was there too.
Needless to say mosr Daisys here have been replaced by 200Ts.
The only problem we have with the AR30 is price otherwise it is
top class.
There is a new Sporter being evaluated here and in the USA at
acceptable price and modularly expandable.
Sorry Jay but someday we might meet and exchange notes.

Adriaan.

[Jay V]

Hi there,
Here in South Africa we have both the Daisy 888 and the Air Arms
200T {similar to XV 40} and our experience is quite opposite to
that of Jay V.
The 200T outperforms in all respects except number of shots.
The 200T is easy to maintain mainly machined steel { Daisy
has mostly cast components} Excellent parts availability
and service backup.
We even use the 200T in the Prec. and 10m Standing event and
some of our juniors have made the National Team and competed
in the UK. a USA team from The Nat. Guard under Dave Woodard
was there too.
Needless to say mosr Daisys here have been replaced by 200Ts.
The only problem we have with the AR30 is price otherwise it is
top class.
There is a new Sporter being evaluated here and in the USA at
acceptable price and modularly expandable.
Sorry Jay but someday we might meet and exchange notes.

Adriaan.

Hi Adriaan,

No problem. I like to hear other opinions of what works.

Our Valiants are decent, but not as reliable or accurate as our 888s. At half the price I usually recommend the 888.

The AR30 may shoot very well, but it has the same Hammerli-think as the rest of their newer guns in my opinion. It looks like it has been designed to be mass-produced - inexpensively. The other problem is Hammerli's reputation of having to go back to the factory for service.

Please tell us more about the new sporter gun that is being evaluated.


Thanks - Jay

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

Not bashing the quality of the Avanti 40's, but they're not worth the extra dollars. It's still just a Sporter air rifle and not enough better to both paying a dollar more. The 888's are good enough to post the highest sporter scores possible. When asked, I've suggested that if you're buying the Avanti 40, you should really go the extra mile and get a Precision gun. In short, the Avanti solves a non-existant problem.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Pat McCoy]

We purchased the Avantis to start our Sporter program (rather than 888s) because we weere already set up for compressed air with our Precision guns, and did not want to add the complexity of also having CO2 (lack of storage space). For us using the 888s would have caused problems. both guns shoot very well, and we have had very little problems with the Avantis (usually just being sure the o-rings are in place after filling).

[guest]

Hi Jay,

New rifle was on show in Vegas last week at Air Arms stand.
1--- Sporter has composite stock adjustable as per XV 40
Wt 3.3 kg sights Xv40 trigger 680 gr price similar to XV 40
2---By adding wt internally adjusting trigger to <150 gr extending
sight radius with factory parts you have basic prec. and 10m
standing rifle.
3--- You also have the option of installing top of the range sights
and an alu. fully adj. buttplate.
4--- Should you decide to enter at prec. level a heavier walnut and
or laminated stock is available.
5--- The stock seperates at the pist. grip by undoing one screw,
so at club level many shooters can use same rifle as
well as lefthanders by changing only the butt, converting the
action to lefthand takes only minutes.
6--- Big question ---accuracy?--- We used a machine rest --same as
what the Russians have been using for years when ammo
batching for their Nat. SB Shooters. As references we used
a new P700 an 8 yr. old P70 and a new 2002. Result was
that with all these rifles one could average 10.7 plus forever with
good pellets.
7--- With a small adjustment { dealer} power can be upped to Field
Target velocities a scope attached and youre in the FT game as
well. 25 yd prone and outdoor 3P too. Take note you hi power
guys------even for SB practice.

This rifle should make our sport much more affordable----agree?

Regards,

Adriaan.