Best pistols for all ISSF Matches

[Greg R]

Now hears a topic I'm sure to get a lot of different Ideas. (but I hope not)
I am wishing to get the best pistols for Standard, Rapid, Air, Free, and Centrefire .32. In the opinion of the competetion shooters on the forum which are the best that you have used or know is the best?
Thanks

[David Levene]

Now hears a topic I'm sure to get a lot of different Ideas. (but I hope not)

I would imagine that every poster will give you a different answer, so here's mine.

Standard Pistol - Obsolete, but if you can find one an old extra heavy barrel FAS 602. If you can't find one then convert one of the old barrel shrouds to fit on a FAS 607.
Rapid - Competition changed 2 days ago, still too early to tell the best pistol.
Air - Morini 162EI
Free - No experience
.32 - FAS 603

[MAS]

Hello, David L.
You are a true FAS aficiado!

I own two FAS pistols at the moment. My 602 (.22), dating back to the early 80s, is more or less "worn out". I plan to turn it in for destruction (remowal from my gun registration card). There has been a lot of trouble with this gun. I think the whole gun suffers from ingeneering shortcomings:
Trigger boxes that constantly work loose. Firing pins that break prematurely. Magazines that jam. Dismounting levers that never stay put. Sears that develop much creep in short time, caused by inferior steel alloys/hardening. Triggerboxes that are impossible to open for serviceing. Barrel made of too soft steel, resulting in peening of the chamber/breech face by bolt, which causes shallowing of chamber and subsequent jams. Bolts that breaks, C-slips of triggers springs that tears off, slide retainers that "fall off" the frame. Etc., etc.
And you are in love with a gun like that, David?

My gun has according to my log done only 25000 rounds, medium powerered target ammo. No high speed ammo. (But many, many dryfirings (with red plastics insert)).

I also own a FAS 603 in .32 caliber, also dating back to the early 80s. It has only done about 4000 rounds. I use it regularly now, and I enjoy it. I have traded away my old Walther GSP in .32, and my Morini CM 32 is in for repairs (since may 2004!) So the ol´603 is all I have got now.

The trigger of the FAS 603 was ok only for the first 1000 rounds, or less. It now has considerable creep, which is impossible to improve by adjusting.
The extractor went into orbit at 1000 rounds or so. But the gun ejects ok without, most of the time.

More FAS? No, I think I will consider that for quite a while...

[David Levene]

Trigger boxes that constantly work loose. Firing pins that break prematurely. Magazines that jam. Dismounting levers that never stay put. Sears that develop much creep in short time, caused by inferior steel alloys/hardening. Triggerboxes that are impossible to open for serviceing. Barrel made of too soft steel, resulting in peening of the chamber/breech face by bolt, which causes shallowing of chamber and subsequent jams. Bolts that breaks, C-slips of triggers springs that tears off, slide retainers that "fall off" the frame. Etc., etc.
And you are in love with a gun like that, David?

My gun has according to my log done only 25000 rounds, medium powerered target ammo. No high speed ammo. (But many, many dryfirings (with red plastics insert)).

I also own a FAS 603 in .32 caliber, also dating back to the early 80s. It has only done about 4000 rounds. I use it regularly now, and I enjoy it. I have traded away my old Walther GSP in .32, and my Morini CM 32 is in for repairs (since may 2004!) So the ol´603 is all I have got now.

The trigger of the FAS 603 was ok only for the first 1000 rounds, or less. It now has considerable creep, which is impossible to improve by adjusting.
The extractor went into orbit at 1000 rounds or so. But the gun ejects ok without, most of the time.

"Trigger boxes that constantly work loose" - Replace the dome headed screw with a normal cap headed one (after filing it down by about 10 thou to clear the underside of the slide). That allows you to use the larger hex key to give it a bit more bite (without rounding the key).
"Firing pins that break prematurely" - Only had to replace the firing pin on a few occassions.
"Magazines that jam" - The early/mid 80s magazines, the folded steel ones, benefited greatly from slightly filing the underside of the top "rollover" at the back to let the cartridge rim move easily.
"Dismounting levers that never stay put" - Just make it part of the routine when putting the gun into the hand to press the lever upwards.
"Sears that develop much creep in short time, caused by inferior steel alloys/hardening" - never saw that problem.
"Triggerboxes that are impossible to open for serviceing" - Says who?
"Barrel made of too soft steel, resulting in peening of the chamber/breech face by bolt, which causes shallowing of chamber and subsequent jams" - Not a problem, my first barrel needed the edges of the chamber relieving once.
"Bolts that breaks" - Never had it, and cannot remember ever seeing one.
"C-slips of triggers springs that tears off" - I do not understand, but will admit that I was never happy with the design of the trigger spring.
"slide retainers that "fall off" the frame" - Have only ever seen this happen when, after removal for cleaning, the spring has not been replaced correctly.
"My gun has according to my log done only 25000 rounds, medium powerered target ammo." When I replaced my barrel in 1992 (I think) it had shot approximately 250000 rounds (in 7 years) of Eley Pistol Match (my favourite) and RWS Pistol Match. Until we were forced to hand in our cartridge pistols in the UK in 1997 it then did about another 100000-150000. I shot it in 2 World Championships, 2 European Championships, numerous other International and National events and it NEVER let me down.

I also had a 603 which I shot in the same matches. It did not fire anywhere near as many rounds as the 602 as the vast majority of my training was in .22 (20 second strings actually). The only time that gun let me down was when the rear sight broke off. I just fitted a new one and re-started. As an aside, if this ever happens to you make sure that you make the repair last 15 minutes (it is only a 5 minute job) to ensure that you get another sighting series without arguements. The only time when I have been unable to remove the creep on a 603 trigger was when the owner insisted on trying to get a rollover trigger. The gun was never designed for it.

I have always admitted that FAS pistols needed a bit more care and attention than some others, but boy was it worth it.

[Mike McDaniel]

Back to the original question.....

Free: Not sure. Clearly a choice between the Toz35 and the Morini CM84, but I haven't decided which one I'd really put my money on.

Standard: Hammerli 208S.

RF: If you have a good answer for this, you're about a year ahead of the game. Right now, I'd stick with the Hammerli 208.

CF: A real grab bag. There have been durability questions asked about all the .32s. Right now, I'm using a Hammerli 280, but I'd be terribly tempted to switch back to a S&W Model 52-2.

Air: Like FP, except the fight is between Morini and Steyr.

[MAS]

Thank you for your overview, David.

I will try to bring some photos of the broken FAS parts, so you can see for yourself.

But you are also writing: " Just make it part of your routine to press that dismantling lever upward when you put the gun into your hand." PRIOR TO EVERY 5 SHOT STRING! David, - this is an engineering flaw. The shooter should consentrate upon aiming and firing, not worrying about the gun coming apart! No other match .22 auto has this flaw, to my knowledge.
Broken bolts? Oh yes. Have one in my drawer. A fissures developed slowly, and one of the "ears" of the bolt came off. According to a gun shop clerk this was common among the FAS 602s. His word about that. It only happened to me once, I admit.

The FAS guns demand some more maintanence and care than most other guns? Yes, I agree fully on that.
Sounds like you brought with you a fully syplied gunsmith /gunsmithing shop at the matches, David? Let me just ask this question: Do people commonly bring spare TRIGGER SEARS for the guns they use in a competition? I think not. Unless you are a FAS owner, probably.

Open the trigger box? Yes, a gunsmith did so, and had a lot of trouble putting it back together. He exchanged the hammerspring. He said he would prefer not to have to do it again!

Enjoy your FAS guns, David. I can live with my 603 but not with that 602.

[David Levene]

" Just make it part of your routine to press that dismantling lever upward when you put the gun into your hand." PRIOR TO EVERY 5 SHOT STRING! David, - this is an engineering flaw. The shooter should consentrate upon aiming and firing, not worrying about the gun coming apart!

Sounds like you brought with you a fully syplied gunsmith /gunsmithing shop at the matches, David? Let me just ask this question: Do people commonly bring spare TRIGGER SEARS for the guns they use in a competition? I think not.

Open the trigger box? Yes, a gunsmith did so, and had a lot of trouble putting it back together. He exchanged the hammerspring. He said he would prefer not to have to do it again!

Just 3 main points then I think we should let the thread get back to the original question.

You seem to be suggesting that a shooter should only ever be concentrating on aiming and firing. Are you suggesting that he should not therefore concentrate on getting his grip on the gun right, or making sure that he has charged the magazine with 5 rounds, or making sure that he is standing behind the line, etc etc. Checking the lever is just another thing to add to the routine.

With all of the time, effort and cost of getting to international level it would seem foolhardy not to have a full set of spares together with the tools and knowledge to carry out any repairs once you get to the big matches. I think you will find this is a common practice for members of national teams not having the comfort of a travelling gunsmith and is just as important as any other part of preparation.

So a gunsmith had problems putting a hammer box back together. Maybe so, but somewhat surprising as it is not difficult. Once again, it is foolhardy to go to a major match without knowing how your gun works and how to fix it.

[Spencer C]

As an aside, if this ever happens to you make sure that you make the repair last 15 minutes (it is only a 5 minute job) to ensure that you get another sighting series without arguements.

Hmmm... as a devil's advocate...
"8.9.6.9 If the Range Officer or Jury considers that the shooter is delaying
the competition unnecessarily, with the intention of gaining unfair
advantage, the shooter must be warned by a Jury Member. For
every similar fault thereafter, two (2) points must be deducted from
the shooter's score."
There are a lot of 'literal' Judges out there.

Is 8.8.2.2 dependent on 8.8.2.1?; or not? In any case, there does not appear to be an equivalent clause for 25m matches.
As a Jury member, my preference would lean towards additional sighters in all cases if a shooter has to change / repair sights.

S

[David Levene]

As a Jury member, my preference would lean towards additional sighters in all cases if a shooter has to change / repair sights.

You've got to be careful with that common sense approach Spencer. It would be an extremely hard jury member who didn't allow a sighting series under 8.8.3.6 if extra time had been allowed under 8.8.3.2

[Guest]

As a Jury member, my preference would lean towards additional sighters in all cases if a shooter has to change / repair sights.

You've got to be careful with that common sense approach Spencer. It would be an extremely hard jury member who didn't allow a sighting series under 8.8.3.6 if extra time had been allowed under 8.8.3.2

We both know they are out there.

S