1911 with Marvel conversion for Rapid Fire
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race1911
1911 with Marvel conversion for Rapid Fire
Anyone have any experiences trying out a Marvel .22 lr conversion on a VERY good 1911 for Rapid Fire events????........based on my familiarity with the handling of 1911's and the supposed excellent accuracy of the Marvel unit I'm thinking this may be a better unit to use than trying to get used to Olympic style handguns..the weight and trigger pull seems to fit in with the new rules too!!...........are 1911 style handguns legal in this division????
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Steve Swartz
Sure. A revolver would be legal too. Have at it. When the rules were changed to use .22 LR, many more competition options became available.
Personal Opinion: The mass, ergonomics, and trigger on a 1911 mod would put you at a great disadvantage.
You need a light weight, forward cg, anatomical grip, with smooth two stage (70-30) trigger.
A heavy gun, with rear cg, slab grip, and single stage trigger is pretty much the opposite of what you would need to be competitive.
Like I said- lots of options now available. Let the "marketplace" decide.
Steve Swartz
1) Light weight for speed
2) Forward cg for smooth transitions and recoil damping
3) Anatomical grip for recoil, pointability, and speed
4) Two stage trigger for faster action, follow up, and transitions
Personal Opinion: The mass, ergonomics, and trigger on a 1911 mod would put you at a great disadvantage.
You need a light weight, forward cg, anatomical grip, with smooth two stage (70-30) trigger.
A heavy gun, with rear cg, slab grip, and single stage trigger is pretty much the opposite of what you would need to be competitive.
Like I said- lots of options now available. Let the "marketplace" decide.
Steve Swartz
1) Light weight for speed
2) Forward cg for smooth transitions and recoil damping
3) Anatomical grip for recoil, pointability, and speed
4) Two stage trigger for faster action, follow up, and transitions
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Fred
Why 2-Stage Trigger?
Steve,
I have not shot RF under the new rules, so this reasoning may not apply, but under the old rules it seemed to be the standard practise to use a single-stage trigger. So why would this not apply under the new rules? I don't really see how a 2-stage trigger is faster, and I can imagine that it might actually be slower. In fact I would guess that a continuous "rolling" release - like the FAS has - might be the most desirable. But, as I said, this is just a guess on my part. Educate us.
I have not shot RF under the new rules, so this reasoning may not apply, but under the old rules it seemed to be the standard practise to use a single-stage trigger. So why would this not apply under the new rules? I don't really see how a 2-stage trigger is faster, and I can imagine that it might actually be slower. In fact I would guess that a continuous "rolling" release - like the FAS has - might be the most desirable. But, as I said, this is just a guess on my part. Educate us.
I think a single stage trigger is the way to go in RF. Unless you're just incredibly good at staging a two-stage trigger while swinging between targets, I don't see how you'd do it well on the 4-second stage.
It might be a little tougher, but doable if you're willing live with things like the upright grip angle.
The Marvel conversion with the fixed barrel is accurate enough.
The trigger *might* be workable as I've seen good gunsmiths able to get good triggers safely to 1.75 lbs (IIRC, minimum for RF is 1000g/2.2 lbs). The problem is, you'll have virtually no adjustability other than over-travel, so it better be set up the way you want the first time.
However, the axis of the bore is fairly high compared to all of the more common guns (Hammerlis, Pardinis, Morinis, etc.) which might make recovering from recoil a bit more challenging.
Also, you'd need to get a very good set of anatomical grips for it.
If it's a choice between shooting RF with a 1911 or not shooting it at all, I"d say go for it!
It might be a little tougher, but doable if you're willing live with things like the upright grip angle.
The Marvel conversion with the fixed barrel is accurate enough.
The trigger *might* be workable as I've seen good gunsmiths able to get good triggers safely to 1.75 lbs (IIRC, minimum for RF is 1000g/2.2 lbs). The problem is, you'll have virtually no adjustability other than over-travel, so it better be set up the way you want the first time.
However, the axis of the bore is fairly high compared to all of the more common guns (Hammerlis, Pardinis, Morinis, etc.) which might make recovering from recoil a bit more challenging.
Also, you'd need to get a very good set of anatomical grips for it.
If it's a choice between shooting RF with a 1911 or not shooting it at all, I"d say go for it!
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Why 2-Stage Trigger?
This is an urban myth. If your FAS has a continuous rolling release it just means that either the user has decided to set it that way or the trigger needs to be set up by someone who knows what they are doing. When properly set up the FAS trigger should have free play, first stage (normally fairly long) followed by a distinct stop (with a click if done really well), and an (apparantly) motionless final let off.Fred wrote:In fact I would guess that a continuous "rolling" release - like the FAS has
Whilst it is possible to have the rolling release, the gun was never designed for it.
This applies to the 601, 602, 603, 604, 606 and 607.
Marvel for rapid fire
I don't own a Marvel but I have shot a couple.
Their attraction is for the NRA Conventional shooter who believes the commonality in grip will help there centerfire and .45 scores. While accurate I think there are far better choices.
I felt the gun had an odd feel when it cycled.
It kind of waived around alot.
One gun that I was able to try recently that I thought had fantastic potential was the MG2.
It was very impressive in design and function.
The only problem was I just couldn't shoot it well.
I have had a 3 level cervical spine fusion with titanium plate, nuts and bolts. I have limited flexibility in my neck. The ergonomics of the gun caused me to have to roll my shoulder and attempt to position my head in such a way that became painful after 30 shots or so. Even though the grip rake and orientation are adjustable I just couldn't get comfortable with the it.
Their attraction is for the NRA Conventional shooter who believes the commonality in grip will help there centerfire and .45 scores. While accurate I think there are far better choices.
I felt the gun had an odd feel when it cycled.
It kind of waived around alot.
One gun that I was able to try recently that I thought had fantastic potential was the MG2.
It was very impressive in design and function.
The only problem was I just couldn't shoot it well.
I have had a 3 level cervical spine fusion with titanium plate, nuts and bolts. I have limited flexibility in my neck. The ergonomics of the gun caused me to have to roll my shoulder and attempt to position my head in such a way that became painful after 30 shots or so. Even though the grip rake and orientation are adjustable I just couldn't get comfortable with the it.
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Fred
FAS Trigger
David wrote:
If your FAS has a continuous rolling release it just means that either the user has decided to set it that way or the trigger needs to be set up by someone who knows what they are doing. When properly set up the FAS trigger should have free play, first stage (normally fairly long) followed by a distinct stop (with a click if done really well), and an (apparantly) motionless final let off.
David, while it is clear from your previous posts that you are very knowledgeable regarding FAS pistols, I must question what you have written above. My FAS 607 trigger has a nearly-continuous roll, as was set up by Rob Potter, with a little tweak by Warren Potter. Both Potters are also quite expert regarding the FAS. It would appear to this non-expert that FAS triggers simply allow an unusually wide range of adjustment, and there is no single "proper" way to set them up.
Fred
If your FAS has a continuous rolling release it just means that either the user has decided to set it that way or the trigger needs to be set up by someone who knows what they are doing. When properly set up the FAS trigger should have free play, first stage (normally fairly long) followed by a distinct stop (with a click if done really well), and an (apparantly) motionless final let off.
David, while it is clear from your previous posts that you are very knowledgeable regarding FAS pistols, I must question what you have written above. My FAS 607 trigger has a nearly-continuous roll, as was set up by Rob Potter, with a little tweak by Warren Potter. Both Potters are also quite expert regarding the FAS. It would appear to this non-expert that FAS triggers simply allow an unusually wide range of adjustment, and there is no single "proper" way to set them up.
Fred
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: FAS Trigger
You say "nearly-continuous". Does that mean that you can feel the stop before applying the final let-off pressure.Fred wrote:My FAS 607 trigger has a nearly-continuous roll, as was set up by Rob Potter, with a little tweak by Warren Potter.
If so then what you describe as "nearly-continuous" is what I described as "first stage (normally fairly long) followed by a distinct stop".
If not then I am afraid that it is not set up as designed and the allen screw (top hole in the back of the gun) needs to be turned anti-clockwise by tiny amounts (approximately 5 degrees) until you can feel a definite stop at the end of the first stage. It is then down to "feel" for the final fine adjustment.
You say that there is no single "proper" way to set the trigger up. It is fact that the FAS trigger was designed for Free Play / First Stage / Second Stage. It is possible to set the gun up without the second stage but that is more by accident than design. Having said that, if it works for you.........
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Steve Swartz
Stan and All:
As always, trigger set-up can be "quite personal" in what works. Bottom line is always what works best *for you*, but of course caveats apply. What you *think* works best for you might actually be putting you at a disadvantage, helping you develop bad habits, etc.
As to RF and single vs two stage triggers
Things tend to happen fast in RF. Problem with a single load/break point is, of course, as always, single stage tends to magnify/aggravate/lead to unwanted movement of the muzzle at the moment the trigger force goes from 0-legal-0-stop (in one fell swoop). With a two-stage trigger, the force profile is broken up into stairs or increments that make it "easier" to exercise "motionless release" (no unwanted movement).
Of course, your milage may vary. If, in the excitement of it all, you need a slack-3lb-slack-stop trigger force profile or you will toss them over hte backstop- then by all means set your gun up that way. Safety First. You can overcome the risk of early shot release through training . . . hmm interesting side discussion here in another discipline of human endeavor here; never mind . . . anyhow, I would be curious as to what the perceieved disadvantages of a two stage trigger would be for RF?
Other than letting them fly too soon- what are the disadvatages of a two-stage trigger? Similarly, what would be the advantages of a single stage trigger?
Steve
As always, trigger set-up can be "quite personal" in what works. Bottom line is always what works best *for you*, but of course caveats apply. What you *think* works best for you might actually be putting you at a disadvantage, helping you develop bad habits, etc.
As to RF and single vs two stage triggers
Things tend to happen fast in RF. Problem with a single load/break point is, of course, as always, single stage tends to magnify/aggravate/lead to unwanted movement of the muzzle at the moment the trigger force goes from 0-legal-0-stop (in one fell swoop). With a two-stage trigger, the force profile is broken up into stairs or increments that make it "easier" to exercise "motionless release" (no unwanted movement).
Of course, your milage may vary. If, in the excitement of it all, you need a slack-3lb-slack-stop trigger force profile or you will toss them over hte backstop- then by all means set your gun up that way. Safety First. You can overcome the risk of early shot release through training . . . hmm interesting side discussion here in another discipline of human endeavor here; never mind . . . anyhow, I would be curious as to what the perceieved disadvantages of a two stage trigger would be for RF?
Other than letting them fly too soon- what are the disadvatages of a two-stage trigger? Similarly, what would be the advantages of a single stage trigger?
Steve
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Mike McDaniel
I'd bet that this is going to be a BIG item of debate in the next few years. My Walther OSP has a long, rolling release as well - and I frankly never liked it.
The way that I see it, the advantage of a two-stage trigger would be that you take up the first stage while moving, stop the gun, and squeeze off the second stage. The advantage of a single-stage trigger would be greater immunity to accidentally taking up BOTH stages while switching targets.
I think there will be a LOT of variation between shooters in this arena. And between crisp and soft trigger pulls. The good news is that since all the SPs qualify, there's no lack of choices.
Ah, change. Love it!
The way that I see it, the advantage of a two-stage trigger would be that you take up the first stage while moving, stop the gun, and squeeze off the second stage. The advantage of a single-stage trigger would be greater immunity to accidentally taking up BOTH stages while switching targets.
I think there will be a LOT of variation between shooters in this arena. And between crisp and soft trigger pulls. The good news is that since all the SPs qualify, there's no lack of choices.
Ah, change. Love it!
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Fred
Duelin' Experts
David wrote:
You say that there is no single "proper" way to set the trigger up. It is fact that the FAS trigger was designed for Free Play / First Stage / Second Stage.
Yes, my 607 trigger as set up by Rob and Warren Potter, has free play, first stage and second stage, but nothing like what you described initially. The free play is short, the first stage is very short, and the second stage is a long roll. Since it is adjusted so that most of the weight is felt in the free play and first stage, the trigger has, in actual use, a feel of nearly-continuous roll. It feels basically like a 1000 gram version of my OSP trigger.
When you talk about a "proper" set up, and "designed for", what exactly do you mean? Are you simply referring to the presence of the relevant adjustment screws, or are you citing a higher authority? If the latter, who/what would that be?
You say that there is no single "proper" way to set the trigger up. It is fact that the FAS trigger was designed for Free Play / First Stage / Second Stage.
Yes, my 607 trigger as set up by Rob and Warren Potter, has free play, first stage and second stage, but nothing like what you described initially. The free play is short, the first stage is very short, and the second stage is a long roll. Since it is adjusted so that most of the weight is felt in the free play and first stage, the trigger has, in actual use, a feel of nearly-continuous roll. It feels basically like a 1000 gram version of my OSP trigger.
When you talk about a "proper" set up, and "designed for", what exactly do you mean? Are you simply referring to the presence of the relevant adjustment screws, or are you citing a higher authority? If the latter, who/what would that be?
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Duelin' Experts
Simply from working, for short periods over a few years, with the top factory mechanic from FAS in the early/mid 80s during which time he showed me the "correct" way of setting up their trigger.Fred wrote:When you talk about a "proper" set up, and "designed for", what exactly do you mean? Are you simply referring to the presence of the relevant adjustment screws, or are you citing a higher authority? If the latter, who/what would that be?
As I said earlier, if it works for you.......
1911 with Marvel For RF
To Race1911
For what it's worth, I'm with Sparky. If you have or want a Marvel unit for your 1911 to shoot RF, JUST DO IT!
I have to be honest though. I'm one of those guys that just purchased a Matchguns MG2 cause I really don't care about anything but RF. A 1911 with a kit will never be a "pure RF gun" but that doesn't mean you can't shoot some super scores with it. Years ago before I purchased a .22 short Domino, I qualified for the Pan Am Trials and Nationals with my S&W mdl 41 (LR). Must have not known any better or just having too much fun. And thats my point.
You guys with any .22, please come out and shoot! If you see someone shooting something you think you'ld like to upgrade to or try, ask if you can see it(you can shoot mine if you ask). I know if more shooters would try it(RF)the numbers would increase.
SHOOT MORE RAPID FIRE PISTOL!
Hold Center,
Alex
For what it's worth, I'm with Sparky. If you have or want a Marvel unit for your 1911 to shoot RF, JUST DO IT!
I have to be honest though. I'm one of those guys that just purchased a Matchguns MG2 cause I really don't care about anything but RF. A 1911 with a kit will never be a "pure RF gun" but that doesn't mean you can't shoot some super scores with it. Years ago before I purchased a .22 short Domino, I qualified for the Pan Am Trials and Nationals with my S&W mdl 41 (LR). Must have not known any better or just having too much fun. And thats my point.
You guys with any .22, please come out and shoot! If you see someone shooting something you think you'ld like to upgrade to or try, ask if you can see it(you can shoot mine if you ask). I know if more shooters would try it(RF)the numbers would increase.
SHOOT MORE RAPID FIRE PISTOL!
Hold Center,
Alex
The Marvel Conversion makes a really good BE gun. The sustained fire portion, which is 2/3 of the BE match, can be very easily accomplished with the Marvel Conversion. But the fastest you are shooting is 5 shots in 10 seconds. I am not that great but I can shoot a 95+ with plenty of time left over. BUT...THIS IS NOT INTERNATIONAL RAPID FIRE!
Like all of the above advice, you need a low bore line, mass forward, and above all, reliability. This can mainly be found in dedicated RF or standard pistols. The Marvel is really not the answer. And there are plenty of older standard pistols that work perfectly well and are a great bargain.
Like all of the above advice, you need a low bore line, mass forward, and above all, reliability. This can mainly be found in dedicated RF or standard pistols. The Marvel is really not the answer. And there are plenty of older standard pistols that work perfectly well and are a great bargain.