In part it means that not everybody subscribes to this forum. At least some of the older shooters have given up badgering USAS about servicing all of Section III.C of their bylaws and see no point in continuing here. Many of the newer shooters don't realize that the classification system is used at the nationals and they do have a shot at winning something. For every response you see her, the are dozens more out there with the same opinion. If USAS was serious about wanting to know what it would take to get their members to go to the nationals, then they would ask them. Not just the ones that show up at the nationals now, but the ones sitting at home planning next year's vacation.
Larry
Warren wrote:Yes Steve, we had intended collating responses and fwding all comments to USA Shooting. I gave them a submission two years ago, and intend to pursue this as far as I can. But frankly 22 people have so far bothered to vote in the poll, and maybe a dozen given comments. Does this mean everyone else is happy with the status quo? We've had a bunch of hits on this topic, we just need to get a bunch more input from you guys (and gals).
I'm a new shooter to Int. USAS and just qualified for Standard Pistol two weeks ago. I plan to attend the nationals at least for a once in a life experience. I have shot the NRA Nationals and wouldn't mind scheduling a week to do the USAS Nationals. I would agree that any more then that would be difficult to do. The location, time, housing, overall experience and expense will determine if I return. Don't mean to compare I will return to the NRA Nationals. The overall experience justifies the time, expense, housing and location.
I do compete in pistol at Camp Perry every year. When I looked into also shooting the USAS Nationals at Ft. Benning, I was principly discouraged by the length of the schedule (I want to shoot all men's events). Then the expense did not look reasonable in comparison with CP. Then the distance to travel became another consideration.
The NRA changed the schedule at Camp Perry for pistol a few years ago, at the request of some competitors. This change made it easier to schedule travel to, competition and travel from to fit into two weekends plus the five day work week in the middle. Most eveyone was happy with this change. (Remember when the Hardball matches were on a Monday?)
I realize that USAS is stuck with Ft. Benning, for now, with no reasonable alternative site. A more centrally located venue would be attractive to some. (For me, it is two days drive to Perry and three days to Benning).
I am in favor of dropping the double match, and compressing the schedule into the two weekends and intervening week. Shooting two different events in one day is not a problem for me. (I once shot a USAS PTO that had all five men's pistol events plus a .22 conventional 900 in two days, exhausting, but fun.)
The prospect of some type of shortened schedule is attractive to the majority of folks I've talked to, myself included. I do, however, have a question regarding the timing of the event. Why is the event held in the middle of June? I'm probably in the minority of potential competitors, but as an independant tradesman it's near impossible to even consider taking a week+ off at the start of the busy season. Could it be moved up to March? or is there some reason, other than tradition, that it should stay in June? I understand that pushing it back/forth much would compete with the WC schedule and many of our top shots would have that conflict....Another option: how about hosting the event as our shooting Season final, and doing it around this time of year?
The ability to shoot once through the course for 4 or 5 guns in a long weekend makes the entire thing much more likely to happen for me regardless of the time of year, but holding it earlier or later in the year, would significantly increase my chance to shoot 2X.
The expense is an issue obviously, roughly $500 to shoot 5 guns is significant when added to travel expenses, a discounted entry fee should be looked into for multiple gun participants.
I've seen, and attended many matches where there is a "bring a new shooter" policy where entry fees are discounted for both. This might help encourage newer shooters to take the plunge.
I didn't attend USAS nationals or Camp Perry this year because I went to
the Colorado Top Gun match instead. I have attended and enjoyed all of
these matches in different years, but cannot shoot in multiple major "away" matches in the same year, some of us have to work. Besides, I
have multiple local matches to choose from every weekend all summer,
but don't have time to attend most of these.
I see no point in reducing the scope of the matches, such as single instead
of double courses of fire. The point of the major match is to be a major
match. If someone wants to attend 2 days only, they should be able to
skip the practice session, fire a 2 day match, and return home immediately
with only 2 or possibly only 1 night in motels. Early morning arrival would
work much better if relays could be requested and assigned in advance.
Having all the air pistol, men and women, on the same day might make
couples participation easier. Different relays are not a major problem I
think, I usually stay and watch at least some of the other relays. Free and sport pistol could be the same day I think too.
I have no interest in shooting additional matches on the same day. I can
and have done it, but at Camp Perry I skip the air pistol shooting. Three
gun bullseye gets really long, and I am usually unable to drive home
without a nap first. Camp Perry and the Md AllStates matches are much
better, 1 course of fire per day. If people want to shoot their best, I think
1 match per day is enough. The nationals are about shooting best, not
about shooting most or getting home fastest.
At Camp Perry I stay in the huts with the Virginia shooting team. This not
only minimizes expenses, no car and no motel, but also provides people to
talk with when not shooting. Colorado had equal advantages with better
facilities. Having the shooters spread all over when not shooting was a real
bummer at both the Georgia sites. We might not be able to do much about
the expense unless the army can provide housing, but it would be cool to
rent an entire motel or two for the match and stay together.
I do not remember the entire history but I seem to recall at one point in time we only shot one time through the course and enough people complained they changed it to 2x.
If we do not have any other selection matches then I think that 2x should be the plan.
As far as timing goes I am sure there are several reasons it is when it is to coordinate with all the other major matches in the world. Besides regardless what time we have it it will not work for someone. June works good for some teachers.
A few have suggested that there needs to be matches all day, not just in the morning. Have you spent much time in the 10m range after 3pm? Not my idea of a great place to spend the afternoon. Also, the afternoons in GA tend to have plenty of nasty weather like lightning storms and such. Definitely not a good idea to be trying to run electronic targets during these conditions. Not to mention the wind and rain for those on 25 and 50 meters.
In addition, please consider the work force who are trying to run the matches. Your match doesn't start until 9am, but they are on the range getting the targets ready and testing equipment by no later than 7am. They can't leave until all the training has been completed, all the targets are serviced and the brass and trash that folks have left behind has been policed up. That means if we shot until dusk as Funtoz has suggested, the range personnel wouldn't get to leave until around 10pm. This is pretty rude treatment of these volunteers.
About the location. Several have complained that there is nothing to do in Columbus. Some even commented that it is the armpit of the world. I've never been to Camp Perry, but I don't think that from what I've heard it is a real gardenspot either. Obviously, Disneyland is not close by like when we were at Chino, but there is plenty to do in Columbus.
Guest suggested that we should go back to Wolf Creek, or go somewhere and use the "tainted" paper targets. There is nothing about paper targets that is tainted. It just takes a tremendous amount of work to use paper targets. It also takes a ton more people and weeks of prep before the match numbering all the target packs. Then you don't get results of your match until 2-3 hours after the match. The finals don't happen until 3 hours after the match. As far as Wolf Creek goes, don't hold your breath until the county commissioners finally let us back in there.
As for the middle of June dates. We have a ton of Junior shooters and collegiate shooters who attend these matches. It would be very difficult for them to attend if they had to miss even a week of school. The matches almost have to happen some time in the summer. I'd rather be in GA in June than in July or August.
When it comes to training days, I really don't see the point. When I show up for a 2700 match in a strange place, I don't get to fire even a single practice round. I show up and start shooting and my very first shot is for record. In this international game you are given unlimited sighters within the time limits of your match for the 50 and 10 meter events. Why do we even need practice days at all? As far as I am concerned, they are a MAJOR waste of time and resources. If you can't find your zero within 5 minutes of the start of your match, maybe you should practice more at home. If we didn't have so much time dedicated to practice days, we could shoot more matches.
I like what Benjamin said about the nationals. He said "The nationals are about shooting best, not about shooting most or getting home fastest." He is right.
I appreciate Doc Sexton's work on trying to schedule the matches differently. There has never been anybody in the history of the game that has given back as much as Doc has. I hope you all give his two schedule sheets adequate consideration and let him and USA Shooting know what you want to see.
Thanks for your consideration. Thank you Warren and Doc for all you have done to try to make this whole thing work out better. And thank you folks in the competitions office at USA Shooting who are always wrong, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try and no matter what the outcome. Some of us really do appreciate all you do.
Everybody I know respects the efforts put in by the volunteers at Nationals - and the last thing I want to do is alienate them or make them feel their efforts aren't appreciated.
Maybe a few points have gone a little far.
Shooting until dusk really isn't necessary with electronics. It should be viable, even shooting 2 events per day, to always stage Olympic events in the morning. This means the 10m range need not be in use in the hottest part of the day. Standard and Center might take 45 minutes to shoot a match, even going along at a doddle. Granted there is some chance of late afternoon storms in Georgia in summer, but it would be a nice problem (not likely to happen for a few years at least) to have so many relays in an afternoon to stretch to late afternoon.
A very good point about training, Marc. At an international shoot you are given sixty minutes' range time the day before your match on the firing point you're assigned for the match. That's it.
There must be other ways to lighten the load of the volunteers - did you know that for the past 3 or 4 years at Camp Perry it has been the responsibility of the shooter to pick up all fired brass on the firing line - and that includes 22 shells. This is in the middle of a field. I tell you it's not easy finding that brass in clumps of grass. Sweeping a concrete bay would be a pleasure after that.
I should also remind everyone we're not, even with the single match program, suggesting the second match be done away with entirely. Those who are not concerned with time away from home or the associated expenses, or those who are committed to making the National team, would then stay on to shoot a second match for each event. The whole idea of this is to maximize grassroots participation and inject some enthusiasm into what has been a declining event.
It is not, neither has it even been, my intent to suggest that Competitions are not doing a great job. I do feel, however, that the schedule was brought in a long time ago when full-time shooters were the major players (and there were lots more of them), and it may be time to look at some ways to attract more shooters.
no, I thought of the political joke and then went hunting a picture of me on the website. Most of the ones I could think of were of me with someone else, in an interview, etc.
But in all seriousness, we have heard complaints for years about this, and we want to see something done to encourage particaption levels. Short of someone paying people come shoot for 2 weeks, we see one or the other of these two proposed timelines as the way to lessen the monetary and time cost to the competitors. Now is the time to do this, the year following the Olympics, giving us 3 years to build for 2008.
Great post/suggestion. For those of us that have to work for a living, being able to take part at the Nationals without having to utilize too much vacation time is a win-win situation. Please take the input you are getting and provide it to the decision makers.
A shortened schedule make lots of sense. shoot in the morning and train in the afternoon. Couple up FP & AP, SP/SP & RF. 5 shot AP & CF. Men start out with air pistol then move to Free, then Standard, CF, maybe RF will replace CF, who knows.
Most Women start AP, then SP (I think, I just don't know).
Match in the morning Finals in the afternoon, work the training schedule around the matches/ finals.
the point of the shortend schedule is to shorten the shedule, having training defeats that purpose. You are supposed to train at home, compete at competitions
At least some of us are still around from the discussions that resulted in the expanded training schedule at the nationals. Shooting on a world class range is a treat for most of us, and as long as we were going to be there all week any way, why not shoot and enjoy the experience. Now the topic is shortening the schedule to get more participation. Open training time has to go. Half an hour of shooting time to make sure nothing was buggered up during transport would be nice, but any more is really a luxury.
Making things easy for the volunteers was not what we were kicking around, I think its more important to come up with a schedule that will maximize participation, then find the volunteers to make it work. Having a match schedule where the support officials approach the number of competitors is going to collapse in the end. More shooters, more volunteers. Warren's point about picking up brass at Perry is well taken. We expect shooters here to pick up their brass, help set up, take down, score and more. I was surprised when I was in Atlanta that more wasn't expected of the competitors. We are, after all, members of USAS and should have no problem with helping set up and operate OUR national championship. And yes, I know how hard it is to get qualified volunteers. Mark seems to think that I run a few matches now and then. I actually manage 5 shooting ranges for rifle and pistol, hosting matches sanctioned by most of the precision shooting bodies. We wouldn't have matches without the selfless volunteers that work on them. USAS should be publishing the names of the volunteer right on the results page so that the shooters can properly recognize their efforts.
Warren,
Let me start out by saying that I, as a shooter thank everyone for their thoughts and efforts. The reason I didn't register my vote in the poll is simple; It wasn't aimed at me because after a long vacation, I'm shooting again and I'm going to the Nationals no matter what because I know it's worth the effort. Actually the last time I shot the Nationals at Black Canyon (79), we shot 3 times over the course.
Think about it. Most shooters that have been to the Nationals go home feeling like they've learned a lot or progressed for some reason. I know for me it's because I've shot with the best, for more time than I normally could at home. I mean think about it: how many other sports can you pay your entry fees and participate in the Nationals, World or Olympic Trials? I fully understand it ain't cheap, but thats something else.
A way to lessen entry fees is to charge a lesser amount for those who want to shoot just for score or the "experience" of shooting in a National event, Let shooters just shoot once over the course if they choose.
All entries however would be FINAL at registration.
I'd like to see FP & RF shot three times over the course on successive days, in the morning, in that order, with AP shot every afternoon for record (competitors shooting for teams, pick three days again at reistratio). Shoot CF and SP once over the course on designated afternoons. Women's SP could be shot also in the afternoons during FP and Ladies' AP along with and same as Men's AP.
About free or down time, HELP run some match or do something to help when you're not competing. I've run or helped run everything up to Nationals and believe me there is plenty to keep all busy. The USAS needs to utilize anyone that is willing to help. In the past thats been a problem even with the NRA but it can be worked out if everyone designates the times they're willing to help at registration.
Finally, lets keep in mind that we're only having this discussion because we are blessed to live in a country where we have the freedoms to own firearms, shoot, and yes complain. In the end lets all try to be part of the solution and not the problem.
I would love to see the Nationals shot over a shorter period. Having plenty of experience shooting 7 different matches over a 3 day weekend in Australian Open competitions, shooting 5 events (10 matches) over 2 weeks is just madness. Especially given that holiday time in the USA is not exactly generous compared to some other countries.
And the cost is rather steep. Not having been to a US Nationals, are competitors expected to help after they have finished shooting for the day or is there an exclusive volunteer force doing all the work? At the Aussie Nationals there is practice time before the start of competition, after that you may be able to get some time on the range but it's certainly not a sure thing. If you haven't done your practice before you fly/drive to wherever, it's too late! Just sight in and be done with it. Competitors are definitely expected to help (patch targets/call scores/register keep/range officer) after they have finished shooting. You have to put what you'd prefer on the entry form. Surely you don't need a qualification to help out by sweeping the range? (I guess not much need for scoring help if it's done on electronics.)
One thing regarding paper targets. I understand that it takes some time to print numbers on the AP targets, and the Free pistol targets if you are going to score them off the range. But any other matches (Sport pistol, Center Fire, Standard), why number them at all? You would have a target number under/above each target, and the scoring would be done on the line. From what I understand Free Pistol had only 32 competitors for the 2004 Nationals? I can't see how that would take more than one hour max to score the last series of targets. Make it easier and score Free on the line as well. For Air Pistol does USAS have an electronic scoring machine for paper targets? One would ease the work load on the scoring staff.
Warren wrote:No international competition I know of shoots twice, certainly not at World Cups or Olympics, although I know some Regional Champs (Oceania for one) has a team match as well as an individual match. They are never shot on consecutive days however.
Warren
Just one correction Warren, I believe they have discontinued the shooting of the "Team" events, at least that was the way for the 2001 Oceania in Auckland. They just used the scores from the individual match to come up with the team scores.
Years ago (in the 1950's)International events were shot at Camp Perry along with the 2700. The Olympic Trials were held there also... Seemed to me that you would have a captive audience if you could somehow coincide the 5 ISSF events with the 2700. Camp Perry has the Petrarca Range which is covered and could accomodate Free and Air. Yea, I know what your thinking, NRA and USAS don't mix...but it still boils down to people and alot of those people have to decide between shooting Camp Perry or the USAS Nationals. I am faced with that decision every year, and every year I decide to shoot both...would be nice to make a carreer out of shooting! The idea of having 800 people shooting Camp Perry makes it a worthwhile effort to consider.
Other than that, I like the compressed schedule idea.
I had an extensive exchange with Bob Mitchell a couple of years ago about USAS/NRA cooperation. There was still enough animosity around on both sides at that time to make closer cooperation problematic, but we should continue to urge our leaders in both organizations to do so. I think that the NRA should be a major financial and technical supporter of USAS. The prestige of international shooting sports through the Olympics is a valuable asset in the NRA's running battle to keep firearms in the hands of shooters, and the NRA's access to non-competitive shooters would allow the USAS to gain their direct support.
The more I think about the issue of participation in national events like the USAS NC, the more I think that the NC needs far more extensive surgery than just fiddling with event timing. Such fiddling is the only avenue available at this late a date, but we should be looking forward to 2006 and beyond.
Shotgun does its own thing now and I think that rifle and pistol, and at some later date air should stand alone too. Using the Petrarca range and maybe coordinating use of the main firing line for Standard/Center-fire-Sport would give us immediate access to a very large shooter pool. Maybe a zone or regional to test the feasibility before trying a NC?
Interesting idea, John. It should get some “why-Not” consideration by competitions.
