Which .22lr standard/sport/rapid pistol is most reliable with regard to (a) feeding, (b) misfires, (c) ejections, etc.???
I don't care about the cost - I just want reliability!
which .22lr std pistol is MOST reliable - no more alibis!!!
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Re: which .22lr std pistol is MOST reliable - no more alibis
Dear Lee:Lee Harmon wrote: I don't care about the cost - I just want reliability!
If you don't care about the cost, there are some Hämmerlis 208S available at www.gunbroker.com. Two of them are new, including one of the "last edition" for $3,000 bucks or something. I guarantee that, with that gun, you're not going to have any kind of problem. Also, you'll have an extraodinary accurate gun.
Ditto to the Hamerlli 208s, I have put over 3000 rounds through mine with nothing but perfect feeding, extractions and accuracy.
They arent cheap but I think they are well worth the money. Some people will say its an old design with a lot of snap which causes problems with rapid fire events. I have never had any problems with that, but I did put the next heavier weight on the front of the gun because I like it to be a little nose heavy.
They arent cheap but I think they are well worth the money. Some people will say its an old design with a lot of snap which causes problems with rapid fire events. I have never had any problems with that, but I did put the next heavier weight on the front of the gun because I like it to be a little nose heavy.
Front weith
Same Tom. I have now instaled the 200 g. and I feel very comfortable (I'm a big guy).Tom Bowen wrote: I did put the next heavier weight on the front of the gun because I like it to be a little nose heavy.
Kindest regards,
Manuel
No question about it, the 208
Hammerli 208 will not give you problems, I have a Perdini SP and a Smith and Wesson model 41, both are unreliable. With the 208 I have only had one aliby in a rapid fire, due to the ammo, not the weapon. It's simple the best you can buy.
I've had a Ruger Mk II, a Walther OSP (not really an SP, but mechanically similar to the GSP except for being .22lr) and a Pardini SP.
The Ruger was pretty reliable, except for when it got dirty, then I'd sometimes wouldn't eject and I'd get cases stuck in the chamber. The OSP was pretty finicky about ammo and had problems with the hammer following. So far, the Pardini SP has been the most reliable. I haven't had a single jam. Between five different magazines and using ammo ranging from low velocity target ammo to high velocity el cheapo Federal Lightning, I haven't had a problem.
The Ruger was pretty reliable, except for when it got dirty, then I'd sometimes wouldn't eject and I'd get cases stuck in the chamber. The OSP was pretty finicky about ammo and had problems with the hammer following. So far, the Pardini SP has been the most reliable. I haven't had a single jam. Between five different magazines and using ammo ranging from low velocity target ammo to high velocity el cheapo Federal Lightning, I haven't had a problem.
Re: which .22lr std pistol is MOST reliable - no more alibis
On the other side of the equation are pistol maintenance and the ammunition.Lee Harmon wrote:Which .22lr standard/sport/rapid pistol is most reliable with regard to (a) feeding, (b) misfires, (c) ejections, etc.???
I don't care about the cost - I just want reliability!
Over the years I have found that there are very few brands of .22 pistol that give trouble (provided they are properly maintained and adjusted!!!) - although not all pistols are created equal when it comes to trigger 'feel', or to accuracy. At the club level, most troublesome pistols have responded well to cleaning, adjusting the trigger, occassionaly the replacement of springs and/or a change of ammunition.
Most of us have the remainders of various brands/types of ammunition tucked out of sight that we put down to 'experience'.
My personal worst case was a batch of major brand ammo that ran at about 30% no-bang in my Hammerli 208 (when every other brand was giving around 2 or 3 malfunctions per 1000) - this particular batch gave about the same 'failure rate' when I decided to use it in my bog-standard rabbit rifle.
Added up, there is a considerable amount of $$$ sitting in my ammo safe as bits and pieces of boxes of .22 LR ammunition accumulated over the years.
With the introduction of the one re-shoot rules, the target shooters might have to start demanding a refund for duff ammo.
Regards,
Spencer
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Fortitudo Dei
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I think if you're somewhat mechanically savvy, there are rarely malfunction problems that can't be fixed. First off, have a relatively clean gun. For different velocity ammo, switch to different strength recoil springs for each type of ammo. For problems with ejection, look at things like the shape and position of your ejector and extractor tension. For feeding problems, look at things like the shape of your feed lips and the angle at which your rounds meet the ramp up to the chamber.
For the most part, the guns we're shooting are fairly simple mechanical devices. Outside of trigger groups, it's usually pretty easy to take them apart and figure out how they work.
For the most part, the guns we're shooting are fairly simple mechanical devices. Outside of trigger groups, it's usually pretty easy to take them apart and figure out how they work.
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Tom
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:43 pm
- Location: On the mountain overlooking Manchvegas, USA
Quality pistol, ammo and mags = reliability
Hi,
The most important thing about shooting in a match is the gun going bang everytime. To that end:
1: Have a pistol with no defects or worn out parts. Wear and lack of proper maintence/cleaning are major factors in reliability. Most pistols made within the last 20 years have solid designs and should not require design improvments via a dremel, they may however require a bit of polishing as the final hand fitting step has for economic reasons, been eliminated. Clean and lubed pistols are much more reliable that one with 30 rounds through it. Clean it often.
2: Get good ammo and store it properly. Good ammo is defined as ammo that fits the mags and chamber properly, has no excess lube to clog feed ramps and chambers, has the correct power/velocity for the pistol/match, has a reliable priming compound/rim the the pistol firing system can detonate reliably and is reasonably accurate for the distance of the shooting. Storage effects ammo more than most people think. I have always stored rimfire in sealed US military ammo cans with desicant. Humidity will cause priming compound to not fire.
3: Mags. I have found that most reliability issues are caused by mags. I have multiple mags for each of my firearms. Each mag is numbered. If I have an issue, I know what mag was in the gun when it happened. I give away mags that have 3 failures to feed. At that point, the mag is not worth the reliability and I give my headache to someone else to play with.
When looking to make a reliable pistol remember to test in the same manner that you will be shooting. If your shooting the winter leagues in a cold part of the world, put the ammo in the freezer for a couple hours to get it to the same temp as it will be on the range. same with the pistol. Most ammo will work fine at 80 degrees F, very few work as well at 0F.
I have used these practices in all of my guns, pistol, rifle, 22, CF and high power. So far they have been good to me.
My 2 cents
Tom
The most important thing about shooting in a match is the gun going bang everytime. To that end:
1: Have a pistol with no defects or worn out parts. Wear and lack of proper maintence/cleaning are major factors in reliability. Most pistols made within the last 20 years have solid designs and should not require design improvments via a dremel, they may however require a bit of polishing as the final hand fitting step has for economic reasons, been eliminated. Clean and lubed pistols are much more reliable that one with 30 rounds through it. Clean it often.
2: Get good ammo and store it properly. Good ammo is defined as ammo that fits the mags and chamber properly, has no excess lube to clog feed ramps and chambers, has the correct power/velocity for the pistol/match, has a reliable priming compound/rim the the pistol firing system can detonate reliably and is reasonably accurate for the distance of the shooting. Storage effects ammo more than most people think. I have always stored rimfire in sealed US military ammo cans with desicant. Humidity will cause priming compound to not fire.
3: Mags. I have found that most reliability issues are caused by mags. I have multiple mags for each of my firearms. Each mag is numbered. If I have an issue, I know what mag was in the gun when it happened. I give away mags that have 3 failures to feed. At that point, the mag is not worth the reliability and I give my headache to someone else to play with.
When looking to make a reliable pistol remember to test in the same manner that you will be shooting. If your shooting the winter leagues in a cold part of the world, put the ammo in the freezer for a couple hours to get it to the same temp as it will be on the range. same with the pistol. Most ammo will work fine at 80 degrees F, very few work as well at 0F.
I have used these practices in all of my guns, pistol, rifle, 22, CF and high power. So far they have been good to me.
My 2 cents
Tom
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Mike McDaniel
I've had a Walther GSP, and a Hammerli 280 and 208. All were pretty reliable, but the Walther needed to have about 20 rounds through it for complete reliability feeding. Which just meant not showing up at a match with a perfectly clean gun. The Hammerlis run like tops, though the open-breech design of the 208 is inevitably going to have an edge over the ejection port of a 280.
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espresso31
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- Location: Dallas, Texas
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Guest
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Jack
reliable 22
I cannot recall over 34 years any reliability problems with my original 106 High Standard. I do have two very specific red bottom magazines that feed all ammos.
I'm almost embarassed to mention an old modified Margolin [short butt] I have, in the company of hammerli, AW93 Walther etc.
Second-hand when I bought it 25 years ago, it has NEVER had a failure to feed or eject. Lost count of the number of bricks of ammo through it. The small number of misfires have been the ammo. It even functioned normally with a broken firing pin.
Lee wrote "I don't care about the cost - I just want reliability!"
Sometimes more $$$ doesn't buy you reliability, but it will get you a better handling and more competitive pistol.
Second-hand when I bought it 25 years ago, it has NEVER had a failure to feed or eject. Lost count of the number of bricks of ammo through it. The small number of misfires have been the ammo. It even functioned normally with a broken firing pin.
Lee wrote "I don't care about the cost - I just want reliability!"
Sometimes more $$$ doesn't buy you reliability, but it will get you a better handling and more competitive pistol.
May all your shots be "10's"
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Nearmiss
Unreliable .22 match standard pistols.
Yes, Lee, I do understand your greef.
Most match .22 pistols need proper maintenance, cleaning and change of worn parts regularly to word properly. And even then they will often turn you down.
Once upon a time I owned a Haemmerli 208. The grip angle was steeper than the more modern match issues, but the pistol was reliable when fed good ammo. I practically wore it out., i.e. the trigger/sear got worn. I traded it in for a Walther GSP. I regret that until this day.
In the followong years I have also owned one Domino, one FAS (about the same thing). And finely I acquired a Morini CM 22. A very unreliable gun indeed.
Probably mo vote is in favor of the Haemmerly 208.
Your question, Lee, could be answered the other way around: which pistol is the least unreliable.
Most match .22 pistols need proper maintenance, cleaning and change of worn parts regularly to word properly. And even then they will often turn you down.
Once upon a time I owned a Haemmerli 208. The grip angle was steeper than the more modern match issues, but the pistol was reliable when fed good ammo. I practically wore it out., i.e. the trigger/sear got worn. I traded it in for a Walther GSP. I regret that until this day.
In the followong years I have also owned one Domino, one FAS (about the same thing). And finely I acquired a Morini CM 22. A very unreliable gun indeed.
Probably mo vote is in favor of the Haemmerly 208.
Your question, Lee, could be answered the other way around: which pistol is the least unreliable.
For outstanding reliability, I recommend the Feinwerkbau AW-93. I shot mine for eleven months, about 10,000 rounds and never had a malfunction. It is gratifying to see others have had similar experiences.
My Hämmerli 208s has had problems with misfires. I had Larry Carter work on it, and it still requires a new hammer spring every six months. I still get occasional misfires. This Hämmerli 208s is my primary .22 as I score higher with it than the FWB AW-93.
I have also owned a Pardini SPE, Morini CM-22, IZH-35, Walther GSP, Marvel .22 conversion and a S&W M41. None were as reliable as my FWB AW-93. The Pardini, IZH and the Marvel are the next most reliable for me.
I am considering making the FWB AW-93 my rapid fire pistol in 2005, as it has a nice internal recoil buffering system.
Best Regards, Slo cat
My Hämmerli 208s has had problems with misfires. I had Larry Carter work on it, and it still requires a new hammer spring every six months. I still get occasional misfires. This Hämmerli 208s is my primary .22 as I score higher with it than the FWB AW-93.
I have also owned a Pardini SPE, Morini CM-22, IZH-35, Walther GSP, Marvel .22 conversion and a S&W M41. None were as reliable as my FWB AW-93. The Pardini, IZH and the Marvel are the next most reliable for me.
I am considering making the FWB AW-93 my rapid fire pistol in 2005, as it has a nice internal recoil buffering system.
Best Regards, Slo cat
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Guest
Most /Least Reliable .22 (match) auto
Heck, Lee, I want to start at the other end. Feeding problems with the .22 autos is persistent. The problem can be reduced, but not eliminated, obviously.
The least reliable match .22 autos? My subjective rating:
1. place: FAS (Domino) 602/607
2. Morini CM 22
3. Benelli
4. Pardini SP
5. Haemmerli SP 20
(6. the old S&W 41, which is no real match auto).
Of the more reliable .22 autos, when cleaned properly, and fed good ammo:
1. FWB AW 93
2. Haemmerli 208
3. Walther GSP
The least reliable match .22 autos? My subjective rating:
1. place: FAS (Domino) 602/607
2. Morini CM 22
3. Benelli
4. Pardini SP
5. Haemmerli SP 20
(6. the old S&W 41, which is no real match auto).
Of the more reliable .22 autos, when cleaned properly, and fed good ammo:
1. FWB AW 93
2. Haemmerli 208
3. Walther GSP