Any New CO2 Pistols Available?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
-
Spotted Owl
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:28 pm
Any New CO2 Pistols Available?
Anyone know if it's still possible to buy a new 10M gun in CO2 instead of compressed air? They seem to be either extinct or very scarce these days.
-
Spotted Owl
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:28 pm
Check this page: http://www.pilkguns.com/prlist.htm .
Pardini makes Co2 target versions also. Look at:
http://www.nygord-precision.com/
http://www.nygord-precision.com/
-
Spotted Guest
Any new match CO2 pistols available?
Yes, there are.
Pardini makes a model named the K2-CO2. It may be had in either long or short version. See www.pardini.it.
This pistol is still used by at least one of the italian top 10 meter pistol shooters.
I have been told that this gun har an integral temperature compensating device. But I do not know any more detalis about that.
One of the drawbacks of the CO2 pistols used to be their relatively large shift of impact with changing temperatures.
Best regards,
"Spotted Guest".
Pardini makes a model named the K2-CO2. It may be had in either long or short version. See www.pardini.it.
This pistol is still used by at least one of the italian top 10 meter pistol shooters.
I have been told that this gun har an integral temperature compensating device. But I do not know any more detalis about that.
One of the drawbacks of the CO2 pistols used to be their relatively large shift of impact with changing temperatures.
Best regards,
"Spotted Guest".
-
guest
shift of impact of CO2 powered 10 match pistols
This is an answer to "Mack":
In precharged air match pistol reservoir cylinders there are only one thermodynamic "face" (hopefulle no water). During shooting, the pressure of the air in the cylinder decreases gradually. This is compensated for if the integral pressure regulator of the pistol is working properly. (You bet, not all pressure regulators will after a couple of years of extensive use).
In the case of CO2 powered pistols, the reservoir cylinder contains two "faces" of the CO2 in equlibrium (at temperatures less than the critical temperature). That is liquid CO2 and CO2 gas. When the pistol is helt horisontally, the liquid CO2 being hevier that the gas, will be in the lower part of the cylinder, with gas above.
During shooting, if temperature is kept constant, the pressure in the cylinder is constant as long as there is any liquid CO2 available for evaporation. Once all CO2 liquid is gone, the pressure will decrease in the reservoir. Not all pistols can cope with this.
Some manufacturers tried to overcome problems by usind vertical, or skew mounted reservoir cylinders. This was only partly successful, it turned out.
So, it seems many CO2 match pistol shift impact during a cylinderfull of shooting. The older designs where a striker hit a nedle valve at the end of the reservoir cylinders shifted more than the designs with a secondary pressure chamber.
Besides, CO2 is a relatively heavy gas. The reduction in weight and hence a shift of balance, during a 60 shot match (plus sighters) could cause some shift in point of impact too, I am afraid.
Yes, the weight of compressed air in a precharged cylinder also decreases during a match, but much less so.
In precharged air match pistol reservoir cylinders there are only one thermodynamic "face" (hopefulle no water). During shooting, the pressure of the air in the cylinder decreases gradually. This is compensated for if the integral pressure regulator of the pistol is working properly. (You bet, not all pressure regulators will after a couple of years of extensive use).
In the case of CO2 powered pistols, the reservoir cylinder contains two "faces" of the CO2 in equlibrium (at temperatures less than the critical temperature). That is liquid CO2 and CO2 gas. When the pistol is helt horisontally, the liquid CO2 being hevier that the gas, will be in the lower part of the cylinder, with gas above.
During shooting, if temperature is kept constant, the pressure in the cylinder is constant as long as there is any liquid CO2 available for evaporation. Once all CO2 liquid is gone, the pressure will decrease in the reservoir. Not all pistols can cope with this.
Some manufacturers tried to overcome problems by usind vertical, or skew mounted reservoir cylinders. This was only partly successful, it turned out.
So, it seems many CO2 match pistol shift impact during a cylinderfull of shooting. The older designs where a striker hit a nedle valve at the end of the reservoir cylinders shifted more than the designs with a secondary pressure chamber.
Besides, CO2 is a relatively heavy gas. The reduction in weight and hence a shift of balance, during a 60 shot match (plus sighters) could cause some shift in point of impact too, I am afraid.
Yes, the weight of compressed air in a precharged cylinder also decreases during a match, but much less so.
no doubts about the physical properties
I respect the integrity of your observations about the properties of CO2 and compressed air. I routinely get many, many more shots from a cylinder than could ever be needed for a match.....even if my sights were smeared with peanut butter and adusted by somebody wearing boxing gloves so that I had to shoot a ton of lead to sight back in. So much for the smart remarks. The truth is that I find little or no change in the feel of the pistol or the point of impact unless I totally consume the cylinder fill. Unless I am way out of line, most shooters...even quite good ones will affect the point of impact more from technique and execution than the deficiancies of equipment. I am happy to continue using CO2 for the time being. Good to have this sort of discussion to open up other points of view.
-
pilkguns.
Dear Guest,
while I am not going to argue the science of the weight potential of CO2 in this application, I will say that it has nothing do with the accuracy factor . Temperature changes are what can VERY MINUTELY affect the group size.
BUT BUT BUT, I dare say that 98% of all the worlds air pistol shooters put togheter would not notice any discernable accuracy dispersion cause by using CO2 versus CA.
Let's you have done a number of things first to see this effect happen.
1*You have pellet tested your pistol for the best possible group in conjuction with finding the best velocity for that pellet. Your pistol will now shoot perfect circle groups, i.e, every shot is a 10.9. ( keeping in mind that another pellet might also be capable of the same accuracy at a slighty faster or slower speed,say 515 fps versus 540 fps) . Different pellet/barrel combinations will have a "sweet spot" in velocity where it will turn out the best group. this is true for firearms as well, although I think barrle harmonics is much more a factor than in airguns. Aso bearing in mind that this testing was done at specific temperature, so that this "benchmark" accuracy was established at lets say 72 degrees.
2* you are capabale off releasing the shot with enough precision to call your shot a deep 10, (10.7, 10.8, 10.9) instead of an outside
3* you shoot two matches at two different tempetrures, for example, you shoot one match in the morning, say at 9:00 AM an the tempetureis 70 degrees. and then a final at say 2:30 in the afternoon and th3e tempeture is now 85 degrees
If you have done all these, you will find that the highere temperature has changed the velocity and therefore your gun that was shooting a 10.9 group is only shooting a 10.2+ group because the differnt speed has changed the group dispersion. Again, ony a person who can reliable hold the gun well enough to notice that could really tell any differnce between CO2 and CA .
Its kindof like buying a Corvette for street drivng , and then worrying about which weight oil in the engine is going to effect your maximum speed of being 162 mph vs 166 mph, and you will rarely get it over a 100 mph anyway.
Thus endeth the Sunday morning epistle
n is shooting at the the same velocity and everything is as it shoul
while I am not going to argue the science of the weight potential of CO2 in this application, I will say that it has nothing do with the accuracy factor . Temperature changes are what can VERY MINUTELY affect the group size.
BUT BUT BUT, I dare say that 98% of all the worlds air pistol shooters put togheter would not notice any discernable accuracy dispersion cause by using CO2 versus CA.
Let's you have done a number of things first to see this effect happen.
1*You have pellet tested your pistol for the best possible group in conjuction with finding the best velocity for that pellet. Your pistol will now shoot perfect circle groups, i.e, every shot is a 10.9. ( keeping in mind that another pellet might also be capable of the same accuracy at a slighty faster or slower speed,say 515 fps versus 540 fps) . Different pellet/barrel combinations will have a "sweet spot" in velocity where it will turn out the best group. this is true for firearms as well, although I think barrle harmonics is much more a factor than in airguns. Aso bearing in mind that this testing was done at specific temperature, so that this "benchmark" accuracy was established at lets say 72 degrees.
2* you are capabale off releasing the shot with enough precision to call your shot a deep 10, (10.7, 10.8, 10.9) instead of an outside
3* you shoot two matches at two different tempetrures, for example, you shoot one match in the morning, say at 9:00 AM an the tempetureis 70 degrees. and then a final at say 2:30 in the afternoon and th3e tempeture is now 85 degrees
If you have done all these, you will find that the highere temperature has changed the velocity and therefore your gun that was shooting a 10.9 group is only shooting a 10.2+ group because the differnt speed has changed the group dispersion. Again, ony a person who can reliable hold the gun well enough to notice that could really tell any differnce between CO2 and CA .
Its kindof like buying a Corvette for street drivng , and then worrying about which weight oil in the engine is going to effect your maximum speed of being 162 mph vs 166 mph, and you will rarely get it over a 100 mph anyway.
Thus endeth the Sunday morning epistle
n is shooting at the the same velocity and everything is as it shoul
-
Dan Hankins
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:53 am
- Location: Southwest Missouri
Well said
Brother Pilkington,
Your epistol is well recieved and a beacon of reason on a subject often blown plumb out of proportion.
As you and your gang of Tenessee bandits know, I have had a bunch of 10 m target pistols, and, based on my own research and record keeping, I am in 100% agreement with you.
other excuses for the aledged poor performance need to include Gravity wells and the cone of protection sometimes found on the Edleman targets. Gravity wells are places on the earth where there is especially high levels of gravity. Sometimes you might encounter them on a hot day, when a cold beer tasted so good that you had more. Then when you walk, you might fall down. It is often not the beer, but a gravity well that pulls you down. There is a similar effect on pellets, with no alchol or any substance involved that might contribute to the fall. When shooting over these gravity wells, the trajectory of the pellet is altered, resulting in a lower score. The 'cone of protection" on the Edleman 10 m pistol targets often keeps the pellet from hitting a deep 10, by deflecting the pellet as it approaches the 10 ring. Not every Edleman target has this cone of protection, but I have seen 10 shots form a circle in the 9 ring, as if the cone was deflecting them from the 10.
I know your observations and comments carry a lot more credibillity than those of this poor old farmer from Southwest Missouri, and that is as it should be. I just want to thank you for bring to light the reality of the performance of CO2 vs. PCP.
Reality is what you make of it. Some get it rightt and soem just never do, and that's OK.
I remain,
Respectfully,
Bubba AKA Dan Hankins
Your epistol is well recieved and a beacon of reason on a subject often blown plumb out of proportion.
As you and your gang of Tenessee bandits know, I have had a bunch of 10 m target pistols, and, based on my own research and record keeping, I am in 100% agreement with you.
other excuses for the aledged poor performance need to include Gravity wells and the cone of protection sometimes found on the Edleman targets. Gravity wells are places on the earth where there is especially high levels of gravity. Sometimes you might encounter them on a hot day, when a cold beer tasted so good that you had more. Then when you walk, you might fall down. It is often not the beer, but a gravity well that pulls you down. There is a similar effect on pellets, with no alchol or any substance involved that might contribute to the fall. When shooting over these gravity wells, the trajectory of the pellet is altered, resulting in a lower score. The 'cone of protection" on the Edleman 10 m pistol targets often keeps the pellet from hitting a deep 10, by deflecting the pellet as it approaches the 10 ring. Not every Edleman target has this cone of protection, but I have seen 10 shots form a circle in the 9 ring, as if the cone was deflecting them from the 10.
I know your observations and comments carry a lot more credibillity than those of this poor old farmer from Southwest Missouri, and that is as it should be. I just want to thank you for bring to light the reality of the performance of CO2 vs. PCP.
Reality is what you make of it. Some get it rightt and soem just never do, and that's OK.
I remain,
Respectfully,
Bubba AKA Dan Hankins
Bubba, we are going to lock you in the 'cone of silence'! I admit that some of what you say makes sense in light of my own anecdotal experience. Very often in practice I shoot considerably higher scores than in top level matches. In practice I use discount targets. In matches the sponsor usually supplies Edelmann targets. Discount targets have no 'cone of protection' resulting in my higher scores!
This evening I built a holographic cone simulator. While allowing the shots to impact as usual, the simulator warps the visual field resulting in a 'virtual' poorer shot. I'll be selling these soon under the "Scatt-a-logical" name. Pilk wants exclusive rights in the US.
Thanks for getting me thinking about the subject.
This evening I built a holographic cone simulator. While allowing the shots to impact as usual, the simulator warps the visual field resulting in a 'virtual' poorer shot. I'll be selling these soon under the "Scatt-a-logical" name. Pilk wants exclusive rights in the US.
Thanks for getting me thinking about the subject.
such discourse from TargetTalk is what makes shooting fun
Bubba et al. I never realized that the Edleman cone shrinks. When I first got back into this game, the cone was so damn big that only errant shots entered the black. Over the last year or so, the cone has gotten smaller and has a few chinks in it. I will keep practicing so that I can wear some more of it away. I have found that liquid CO2 works like a paint stripper on the cone. Now, if only I could find a fill for the gravity wells....maybe all those spent wadcutters....hmmmmmmm....a marketing opportunity for the good ol' boys in TN. This board sure has information and .....fun. Thanks to all who participate. Craig
-
akihmsa
Ahhh to be able to hold the 10 ring consistantly and then weigh in on the advantages of this or that propellant!!
CO2 is convenient and relatively inexpensive, I doubt I will be good enough to know whether that 10.2 should have been a 10.7 due to the propellant. At this point in my shooting I will take all the 10.2's that come my way ;~)
Thanks Pilkguns for sheading light on a topic that is often full of gas!!
CO2 is convenient and relatively inexpensive, I doubt I will be good enough to know whether that 10.2 should have been a 10.7 due to the propellant. At this point in my shooting I will take all the 10.2's that come my way ;~)
Thanks Pilkguns for sheading light on a topic that is often full of gas!!
-
Pilguns Guest
Air vs CO2.
Dear debattants, please think seriouslly about this fact:
The accuracy of the gun is more important for a top international match score in air rifle dicipline than in the air pistol dicipline. Agree?
According to my observations no participants in the recent international championships have used a CO2-powered "air"-rifle. I think the national teams out there know better than most.
The accuracy of the gun is more important for a top international match score in air rifle dicipline than in the air pistol dicipline. Agree?
According to my observations no participants in the recent international championships have used a CO2-powered "air"-rifle. I think the national teams out there know better than most.
-
Detective Mack
Dear Chet Skinner aka Pilguns Guest
if you will notice the topic of this post was CO2 pistols, not rifles. I don't think Scott would ever advocate CO2 usage in the rifle world, becuase of the temperature dispersion. If you will notice , there is quite a difference in the size of a AP 10 ring versus an AR 10 ring. In fact, this was the reason that the SSP guns reigned supreme in the AR world while CO2 was king in the AP world.
Now please go back to the UIT list where you foolishness is allowed.
if you will notice the topic of this post was CO2 pistols, not rifles. I don't think Scott would ever advocate CO2 usage in the rifle world, becuase of the temperature dispersion. If you will notice , there is quite a difference in the size of a AP 10 ring versus an AR 10 ring. In fact, this was the reason that the SSP guns reigned supreme in the AR world while CO2 was king in the AP world.
Now please go back to the UIT list where you foolishness is allowed.
CO2 PISTOLS
The trouble is that we were talking about CO2 pistols not rifles. Then there was that college student who had his CA cylinder threads let loose while he was changing it and it flew off the gun and broke his jaw among other things. True, he wasn't following the instructions and was using his wrench to both put the cylinder on and off instead of just off.....Jim.
-
akihmsa
Re: Air vs CO2.
HI "Pilguns Guest"
In my observations they were not allowing any national teams to use air rifles in Olympic Pistol. While the national teams may know better than most, Pistol folks still object to cement overcoated/overpanted rifle shooters in one handed pistol events ;~)
In my observations they were not allowing any national teams to use air rifles in Olympic Pistol. While the national teams may know better than most, Pistol folks still object to cement overcoated/overpanted rifle shooters in one handed pistol events ;~)
Pilguns Guest wrote:Dear debattants, please think seriouslly about this fact:
The accuracy of the gun is more important for a top international match score in air rifle dicipline than in the air pistol dicipline. Agree?
According to my observations no participants in the recent international championships have used a CO2-powered "air"-rifle. I think the national teams out there know better than most.
-
Spotted Owl
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:28 pm
As the original poster, let me say that I'm nowhere near "Olympic" quality as a shooter. Far, far from it in fact. I doubt I'll ever be able to notice any difference between compressed air and CO2.
The reason for my original inquiry was simple: the local dive shop where I got my tank filled went out of business and I was left high and dry. I never did care for the hoops I had to jump through to get the tank filled either. I just got tired of the funny looks and questions I'd get from the dive shop.
The local welding supply shops, on the other hand, refill my CO2 tank with no questions asked. They never give a second thought to what I'm using the gas for.
The reason for my original inquiry was simple: the local dive shop where I got my tank filled went out of business and I was left high and dry. I never did care for the hoops I had to jump through to get the tank filled either. I just got tired of the funny looks and questions I'd get from the dive shop.
The local welding supply shops, on the other hand, refill my CO2 tank with no questions asked. They never give a second thought to what I'm using the gas for.