I'm wondering if anyone has had a noticable positive effect with a barrel tuner. The one I'm looking at is a sleeve with a gel-like liner that you have to loosen to move. It also has 4 additional weights that can be attached if needed.
What is a realistic expectation from a barrel tuner, or at they just a gimmick?
Southpaw
Has anyone had a good experience with barrel tuners?
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I don't really know and am not familiar with the one that you are referring to. I know the rimfire benchrest shooters swear they help. They use a different type though. The ones they use attach to the end of the barrel and have a weight that dials in and out axially on the barrel. I have often wondered if one of these that was setup to allow a front sight to be attached would be of any value. I am skeptical though about the front sight attachment. Seems to me that attaching and removing the font sight and the associated variability would make the results hard to interpret.
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Sawyer
barrel tuners
The one you're talking about is made by Dick Henrich, called the Henrich Vibration Controller. It's not a tuner as much as a dampener. A tuner alters the harmonics-- the wave patterns themselves as I understand it--whereas the HVC dampens them so that recoil is lessened.
You can read your shots a little better. And, it does affect group size. When placed improperly, it will open up the groups compared to shooting without it, but if you can find the sweet spot, it will shrink them. Like anything else, it does take a fair amount of testing, but it does work.
Larry Sawyer
You can read your shots a little better. And, it does affect group size. When placed improperly, it will open up the groups compared to shooting without it, but if you can find the sweet spot, it will shrink them. Like anything else, it does take a fair amount of testing, but it does work.
Larry Sawyer
barrel tuners
Yes, a dampener. I'm still wondering what can be reasonably expected in reduction of group size. I've had a fair bit of trouble finding an ammo match for my gun, but I've just recently found a pretty good match and have ordered a case. I don't have a rifle vise so I'm fairly convinced that the odd flyer is me, but if not, is it reasonable to expect a dampener or tuner could pull in a flyer?
I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Thanks for your comments,
Southpaw
I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Thanks for your comments,
Southpaw
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Sawyer
tuners
Southpaw-
My personal feeling is that a flyer will always be just that, tuner or not. What you are more likely to see is that the groups will shrink when the tuner, or in this case, dampener, is doing its job. My own sense is that flyers are caused by a variation in the mfg. process that falls outside the standard deviation. So far outside that even if the tuner is doing its job, the velocity or other characteristics of the "flyer" will still render it outside the norm, it just won't be as far outside with the tuner.
So, OK ammo can become good, good can become better, and better can become excellent.
I use the HVC as a final tweak, once I've found a lot of ammo that groups consistently, AND after I've found a torque setting on my action screws that gives the best performance. I do all these without the HVC on the barrel, and then put it on and look for the sweet spot to try to find that last little reduction in group size.
I also think you can only expect about a 10-20% reduction in group size. But every little bit helps, so it's a tool I keep in my box.
My final disclaimer is that I don't know a ton about testing ammo. There are a whole bunch of people who have many years experience testing ammo more than I do, and I don't pretend to be an expert. What I've contributed here is just what I've found in my own personal experience in the last 5-10 years. I too would be interested in hearing from others who could corroborate or refute what I've said.
Hope this helps,
Larry Sawyer
My personal feeling is that a flyer will always be just that, tuner or not. What you are more likely to see is that the groups will shrink when the tuner, or in this case, dampener, is doing its job. My own sense is that flyers are caused by a variation in the mfg. process that falls outside the standard deviation. So far outside that even if the tuner is doing its job, the velocity or other characteristics of the "flyer" will still render it outside the norm, it just won't be as far outside with the tuner.
So, OK ammo can become good, good can become better, and better can become excellent.
I use the HVC as a final tweak, once I've found a lot of ammo that groups consistently, AND after I've found a torque setting on my action screws that gives the best performance. I do all these without the HVC on the barrel, and then put it on and look for the sweet spot to try to find that last little reduction in group size.
I also think you can only expect about a 10-20% reduction in group size. But every little bit helps, so it's a tool I keep in my box.
My final disclaimer is that I don't know a ton about testing ammo. There are a whole bunch of people who have many years experience testing ammo more than I do, and I don't pretend to be an expert. What I've contributed here is just what I've found in my own personal experience in the last 5-10 years. I too would be interested in hearing from others who could corroborate or refute what I've said.
Hope this helps,
Larry Sawyer
Barrel Tuners?
Thanks a lot for the input Larry. What you said is pretty much what I've thought. Moving the HVC is quite a chore though. How many groups do you usually shoot between moves?
Where do you start out with torque settings? I'm using an Anschutz torque wrench. How high a torque setting have you gone?
Southpaw
Where do you start out with torque settings? I'm using an Anschutz torque wrench. How high a torque setting have you gone?
Southpaw
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Sawyer
tuners, etc.
Southpaw-
Moving the HVC is a chore, and that's why I bring it into the equation last.
Torque is unique to each rifle, as there are so many factors-- wood, laminated or Alum. stock, bedded or not, round action or square, velocity of the ammo, etc.
But obviously you have to start somewhere if you're going to test various lots, so I set it at 4.5 or 5 Nm and leave it there for the duration of the tests, through all the lots, so that they all have the same chance to perform.
I then shoot 3 (10-shot) groups from the bench, and then step back and look at all the results.
Statistically, you'd have to test each lot at multiple torque settings to KNOW what it is capable of at all settings, but I think that's unnecessary. I think you can get a decent picture of what kind of ammo it is with one torque setting. What I'm looking for is uniformity of groups, size, but also shape; frequency of fliers, etc.
If one particular lot shoots consistently round groups of 1/2 to 5/8 inch at 50 meters, then maybe I can tune the gun to it and get it down to .33 or even .25 inches.
It just depends on how many factors and combinations you want to work with. To tune the gun, I start at 3 Nm-- basically as low as the torque wrench can measure, and I go up in 1/2 Nm increments. And I'm finding that lighter is often better. Not always, but often. In my gun, which is a 2013 in a laminated stock, some of the new fast Eley Tenex EPS (1150 fps) shot better at 5.5 Nm, but my good lot of Lapua Midas M shoots best at 3.5 Nm. A walnut stock might benefit from even higher torque than that-- my old 1413 did-- but yours might not.
You just have to save your pennies, buy as many lots as you can afford, then systematically test them all. it's very expensive and time consuming, but it's folly to think that your gun will shoot great with any ammo and no attention paid to torque or other things that can affect the gun's harmonics. Unless you get really lucky.
Bottom line-- your mileage may vary!
Larry S.
Moving the HVC is a chore, and that's why I bring it into the equation last.
Torque is unique to each rifle, as there are so many factors-- wood, laminated or Alum. stock, bedded or not, round action or square, velocity of the ammo, etc.
But obviously you have to start somewhere if you're going to test various lots, so I set it at 4.5 or 5 Nm and leave it there for the duration of the tests, through all the lots, so that they all have the same chance to perform.
I then shoot 3 (10-shot) groups from the bench, and then step back and look at all the results.
Statistically, you'd have to test each lot at multiple torque settings to KNOW what it is capable of at all settings, but I think that's unnecessary. I think you can get a decent picture of what kind of ammo it is with one torque setting. What I'm looking for is uniformity of groups, size, but also shape; frequency of fliers, etc.
If one particular lot shoots consistently round groups of 1/2 to 5/8 inch at 50 meters, then maybe I can tune the gun to it and get it down to .33 or even .25 inches.
It just depends on how many factors and combinations you want to work with. To tune the gun, I start at 3 Nm-- basically as low as the torque wrench can measure, and I go up in 1/2 Nm increments. And I'm finding that lighter is often better. Not always, but often. In my gun, which is a 2013 in a laminated stock, some of the new fast Eley Tenex EPS (1150 fps) shot better at 5.5 Nm, but my good lot of Lapua Midas M shoots best at 3.5 Nm. A walnut stock might benefit from even higher torque than that-- my old 1413 did-- but yours might not.
You just have to save your pennies, buy as many lots as you can afford, then systematically test them all. it's very expensive and time consuming, but it's folly to think that your gun will shoot great with any ammo and no attention paid to torque or other things that can affect the gun's harmonics. Unless you get really lucky.
Bottom line-- your mileage may vary!
Larry S.
Barrel Tuners?
Thanks Larry.
My gun is a FWB2600 with the standard FWB laminated stock. It seems to have a good receiver/stock fit so I haven't bothered to bed it. I've never tried a lighter torque setting than 5Nm. I've tried going a little higher, but at 6 Nm one is near a threat of stripping either the wrench insert or the bolt head. I'll try some lighter settings once I receive my case lot this week.
So far I've run the gamut of ammo brands in the mid-price-range with a couple of boxes of high end, Tenex etc. thrown into the mix. The most consistent and tightest groups have been with Eley Club Xtra, which I found surprising. I also had some good results with ultra cheap PMC Scoremaster. These two have totally different lubes and the PMC bullets seem to have suffered some dents during manufacture but the groups have been consistently better than brands 5 times the price. I plan to stay with the Eley for my FWB, for this season, but will try to tighten those groups with the HVC.
If you're still watching this thread, I'm curious as to what you use for bore cleaning. Cleaning .22 bores seems to be a controversial subject.
Regards,
Southpaw
My gun is a FWB2600 with the standard FWB laminated stock. It seems to have a good receiver/stock fit so I haven't bothered to bed it. I've never tried a lighter torque setting than 5Nm. I've tried going a little higher, but at 6 Nm one is near a threat of stripping either the wrench insert or the bolt head. I'll try some lighter settings once I receive my case lot this week.
So far I've run the gamut of ammo brands in the mid-price-range with a couple of boxes of high end, Tenex etc. thrown into the mix. The most consistent and tightest groups have been with Eley Club Xtra, which I found surprising. I also had some good results with ultra cheap PMC Scoremaster. These two have totally different lubes and the PMC bullets seem to have suffered some dents during manufacture but the groups have been consistently better than brands 5 times the price. I plan to stay with the Eley for my FWB, for this season, but will try to tighten those groups with the HVC.
If you're still watching this thread, I'm curious as to what you use for bore cleaning. Cleaning .22 bores seems to be a controversial subject.
Regards,
Southpaw
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Sawyer
tuners, etc.
Pure conjecture on my part, but I bet the reason the PMC shoots better is this: the PMC is higher velocity than the Eley (PMC is 1135, I would guess the Eley is around 1050-1070 fps), and you have the action torqued to 5.5 Nm, which is what it takes to tame the harmonics at 1135. Try lighter settings with the Eley and let me know what happens.
As for cleaning, I use TSI 301. I have a SS barrel, and it takes no more than 5 rounds to settle down after one wet and two dry patches. And that's all I do on a routine basis. I'm still experimenting with the effects of really scrubbing it.
I don't like Hoppe's, as it takes the barrel 15+ rounds to settle down after cleaning with it.
My old chrome /moly barrel took over 20 rounds.
There are other products on the market that I haven't tried, but will at some point.
Larry
As for cleaning, I use TSI 301. I have a SS barrel, and it takes no more than 5 rounds to settle down after one wet and two dry patches. And that's all I do on a routine basis. I'm still experimenting with the effects of really scrubbing it.
I don't like Hoppe's, as it takes the barrel 15+ rounds to settle down after cleaning with it.
My old chrome /moly barrel took over 20 rounds.
There are other products on the market that I haven't tried, but will at some point.
Larry