As a beginner in this arena I would be much appreciative of a little advice from the guru's. I am looking to purchase a Sig-Trailside 22LR 6" for myself and a Walther KSP-200 for my wife. We have also looked at the Browning BK Mark 5.5, and Ruger KMK-678GC.
One can see our price range do two of the aforementioned target pistols in .22 cal stand above the others? Or perhaps there are other recommendations. Slightly USED is also fine.
Thank you in advance for your information. David
Sig Trailside 22LR 6in vs. Walther KSP-200
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Entry Level .22 Pistol
I believe the KSP is no longer supported by Walther; it's not on their website anymore.
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Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
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gravedigger
KSP choice & availability
Prior to posting this message I found the KSP on www.topgun-a.com/Templates/walther/walther.htm it lists for 438.00 with lg/med/sm grips. With all this reflection on the KSP am I to assume it is the one of choice over the other aforementioned entry level target pistols?
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Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
other guns
Gravedigger,
You didn't say specifically what type of shooting you planned to do. Certainly the KSP200 is an excellent choice for ISSF events (Standard Pistol, Sport Pistol, and maybe, under the 2005 rules, Rapid Fire). However, if you wish to shoot the NRA Conventional Pistol and use a dot sight, the IZH 35 (at least the version sold by EAA in America) is more readily fitted with a dot sight than the KSP200.
Parts for the KSP200 are a concern. My dealer (in Canada) advised me that repair parts for my KSP200 are difficult, if not impossible, to obtain. I understand that, in America, parts for the IZH 35 are available from EAA.
Based upon what I have read on the Bullseye-L forum (visit www.bullseyepistol.com and follow the links to the Bullseye-L forum and its archives), the other guns you mentioned are good guns, suitable for target shooting (provided they come with adjustable sights), but not as suitable as the KSP200/IZH 35.
However, the other guns you mentioned (Trailside, Buckmark, and Ruger) probably have a wider resale market than the KSP200 or IZH 35 - which are more of a niche gun.
If you consider used guns in the same price range, the selection opens up, but you want to be sure that the gun you are purchasing works reliably and is not just a problem gun being unloaded on someone else. I've bought a number of used guns over the past forty years and my record is about 50/50 (ymmv) :-)
You didn't say specifically what type of shooting you planned to do. Certainly the KSP200 is an excellent choice for ISSF events (Standard Pistol, Sport Pistol, and maybe, under the 2005 rules, Rapid Fire). However, if you wish to shoot the NRA Conventional Pistol and use a dot sight, the IZH 35 (at least the version sold by EAA in America) is more readily fitted with a dot sight than the KSP200.
Parts for the KSP200 are a concern. My dealer (in Canada) advised me that repair parts for my KSP200 are difficult, if not impossible, to obtain. I understand that, in America, parts for the IZH 35 are available from EAA.
Based upon what I have read on the Bullseye-L forum (visit www.bullseyepistol.com and follow the links to the Bullseye-L forum and its archives), the other guns you mentioned are good guns, suitable for target shooting (provided they come with adjustable sights), but not as suitable as the KSP200/IZH 35.
However, the other guns you mentioned (Trailside, Buckmark, and Ruger) probably have a wider resale market than the KSP200 or IZH 35 - which are more of a niche gun.
If you consider used guns in the same price range, the selection opens up, but you want to be sure that the gun you are purchasing works reliably and is not just a problem gun being unloaded on someone else. I've bought a number of used guns over the past forty years and my record is about 50/50 (ymmv) :-)
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gravedigger
Thanks
Well thanks for the information and feed back. Although I am a bit surprised that the KSP 200 beat out the Sig Trailside PL22!!!
There sure was alot of hipe about the Sig, but very little review information. Therefore this evening I will take a closer look at the KSP-200 as well as the IZH 35.
I will use this gun for target matches and if the desire crosses me I will take it alone for the annual gopher round up.
But more importantly I do not want to purchase a pistol that will limit my abiltiy to perform. I would rather have a pistol that I must rise to meet IT"S expectations.
Edited by Shin: Be quiet please...
There sure was alot of hipe about the Sig, but very little review information. Therefore this evening I will take a closer look at the KSP-200 as well as the IZH 35.
I will use this gun for target matches and if the desire crosses me I will take it alone for the annual gopher round up.
But more importantly I do not want to purchase a pistol that will limit my abiltiy to perform. I would rather have a pistol that I must rise to meet IT"S expectations.
Edited by Shin: Be quiet please...
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Illya Kuryakin
This is one of the few more in-depth reviews I found on the Trailslide.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingti ... asp?ID=297
It includes comprehensive accuracy tests with different ammo.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingti ... asp?ID=297
It includes comprehensive accuracy tests with different ammo.
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Guest
Illya,
That was a great review very imformative and definetly pro Trailside-Thank You.
I have also read numerous reports of the trailside having major problems with jamming and finish peeling. Although these were reports from 1999. So one would assume Sig has addressed these issues in the newer models!!!!!
Now as far as the B-IZH-35 I read one post that simply said it was the poor mans Hammerelli. The others praised the gun. As well as most parts are used in the Walther KSP-200. That is they are basically the same gun.
So I ask... Is there anyone that can attest to the reliability, factory support, shootabiltiy and accuracy of these two pistols (KSP-200 & Sig Trailside 22LR competition)? I live in Bozeman, Montana and these guns are not anywhere close for a first hand review. I really need the help of this forum to make the right choice.
PS. I would probably just go purchase the Sig GSP although I would really like the versatility of a 10 round clip. That is important for my flexability in the use of this pistol. There have been 167 views and only 5 replies.
That was a great review very imformative and definetly pro Trailside-Thank You.
I have also read numerous reports of the trailside having major problems with jamming and finish peeling. Although these were reports from 1999. So one would assume Sig has addressed these issues in the newer models!!!!!
Now as far as the B-IZH-35 I read one post that simply said it was the poor mans Hammerelli. The others praised the gun. As well as most parts are used in the Walther KSP-200. That is they are basically the same gun.
So I ask... Is there anyone that can attest to the reliability, factory support, shootabiltiy and accuracy of these two pistols (KSP-200 & Sig Trailside 22LR competition)? I live in Bozeman, Montana and these guns are not anywhere close for a first hand review. I really need the help of this forum to make the right choice.
PS. I would probably just go purchase the Sig GSP although I would really like the versatility of a 10 round clip. That is important for my flexability in the use of this pistol. There have been 167 views and only 5 replies.
Reliability:
My Trailside had finicky taste in ammunition and liked to be run clean. The piece under the barrel (plastic on my gun, a weight on some models) fell off unless secured by Lock-Tite. While I have shot the IZH-35M and KSP-200 enough to be familiar with how they shoot, I haven't owned one, so cannot speak personally to their reliability. The owners of the ones I have shot didn't complain about anything specific, but I have seen many reports on-line of problems with small parts breakages and with doubling, at least with the IZH version.
Importer support:
Importer support of the Trailside is adequate, but not stellar: I had to send one back to SIGArms, and it was repaired relatively quickly (a week or so as I recall), but there was no compensation for the shipping charges I incurred. By contrast, other importers and manufacturers I have dealt with have usually (though not always) been quicker and have usually compensated me for shipping. (The current record being held by Don Nygord, who repaired and returned a gun to me less than 48 hours after I shipped it.)
I have no personal experience with importer support for the IZH, but the tales I have read from those who have had to send them back to EAA for doubling concern me somewhat. I know nothing about importer support for the Walther version.
Shootability:
Without going into a great deal of detail (since it's all subjective), while I find the Trailside a step above the likes of the factory-stock Ruger and Buckmark (and perhaps near or on par with a stock Model 41), I find the KSP-200/IZH-35M in another league altogether, being a well balanced pure target gun with a highly adjustable trigger, set up to run with the 208, 208s, Pardini, GSP, etc.
I have not shot the "competition" variations of the Trailside, which have barrel weights and orthopedic grips. The base model guns are a little too light to be stable, balance very neutrally (too much so for my taste, but some like it), and have a pretty fair incarnation of ambidextrous grips (though that isn't necessarily desired for target work). Had I kept my Trailside, I would have sent it to Larry Carter for his trigger work, which might be all you would want if you like the more vertical grip angle of the 208- and 41-style guns. That wouldn't help you if you preferred a more raked grip angle, nor if the higher bore-line of the Trailside bothered you. As to balance, I believe Larry Carter could help you with a weight set for any of the Trailside models, which I also would have added (along with some better grips). I gather some adjustment can be made to some of the higher-end model triggers (perhaps that is what Larry Carter installs with his trigger upgrades), but the base model trigger is not adjustable, and while not horrible, it doesn't match the subtlety of the IZH/KSP and other guns. The take-up is relatively long, as is the reset, which can be quite frustrating in sustained fire.
The IZH and the Walther KSP are essentially the same, except that the stock grips on the Walther will probably fit more people, whereas the IZH grips are oversized for most hands, presumably so that one can alter them to fit. They balance very well to the fore and have the low bore-axis and forward grip-rake that I like. The triggers I've shot have been relatively crisp (not sure how much roll you could work in), but not obnoxiously so, and they are adjustable in more ways than most of their owners know how to exploit. Finish on the IZH is relatively crude, which is not especially the case with the KSP or with the Trailside, but that has little to do with how they shoot.
Being light and neutral in balance, the lower-end Trailside is an easy gun for the novice to shoot, and it has a conventionally mounted safety which is easy to reach from the stock grips (not sure about the models with the orthopedic grips). It makes an excellent plinker and could certainly be set up for serious target work. The KSP and IZH will never be much other than target guns. That’s the price of specialization.
Accuracy:
Accuracy of these guns, Trailside included, isn't really an issue: the gun is at least as accurate as most of us. It comes down to which one you shoot better, and the more specialized guns can usually be more easily tailored to individual shooting tastes.
In conclusion, were I in your place, I would buy the IZH or the KSP as a target gun and the Trailside as a very nice plinker. Personally, I like the Pardini SP better than the IZH, but it is three times the price. I’ve been through a succession of guns to get to the Pardini, including the Ruger, the 41, and the Trailside. Were I to start over with all of the advantage of hindsight I now possess, I would go straight for the Pardini, but were I to start anew with the same fear of investing too much in a growing hobby that I had when I started, I would pick the Baikal over any other gun in its price range. If you can get a KSP for a similar price to the IZH, so much the better.
A disclaimer to the above is that I am not an especially good shot, but I don’t feel that one’s skill is overly relevant to one’s choice in guns, as the more blameless the gun, the more the shooter can see what he is doing wrong.
My Trailside had finicky taste in ammunition and liked to be run clean. The piece under the barrel (plastic on my gun, a weight on some models) fell off unless secured by Lock-Tite. While I have shot the IZH-35M and KSP-200 enough to be familiar with how they shoot, I haven't owned one, so cannot speak personally to their reliability. The owners of the ones I have shot didn't complain about anything specific, but I have seen many reports on-line of problems with small parts breakages and with doubling, at least with the IZH version.
Importer support:
Importer support of the Trailside is adequate, but not stellar: I had to send one back to SIGArms, and it was repaired relatively quickly (a week or so as I recall), but there was no compensation for the shipping charges I incurred. By contrast, other importers and manufacturers I have dealt with have usually (though not always) been quicker and have usually compensated me for shipping. (The current record being held by Don Nygord, who repaired and returned a gun to me less than 48 hours after I shipped it.)
I have no personal experience with importer support for the IZH, but the tales I have read from those who have had to send them back to EAA for doubling concern me somewhat. I know nothing about importer support for the Walther version.
Shootability:
Without going into a great deal of detail (since it's all subjective), while I find the Trailside a step above the likes of the factory-stock Ruger and Buckmark (and perhaps near or on par with a stock Model 41), I find the KSP-200/IZH-35M in another league altogether, being a well balanced pure target gun with a highly adjustable trigger, set up to run with the 208, 208s, Pardini, GSP, etc.
I have not shot the "competition" variations of the Trailside, which have barrel weights and orthopedic grips. The base model guns are a little too light to be stable, balance very neutrally (too much so for my taste, but some like it), and have a pretty fair incarnation of ambidextrous grips (though that isn't necessarily desired for target work). Had I kept my Trailside, I would have sent it to Larry Carter for his trigger work, which might be all you would want if you like the more vertical grip angle of the 208- and 41-style guns. That wouldn't help you if you preferred a more raked grip angle, nor if the higher bore-line of the Trailside bothered you. As to balance, I believe Larry Carter could help you with a weight set for any of the Trailside models, which I also would have added (along with some better grips). I gather some adjustment can be made to some of the higher-end model triggers (perhaps that is what Larry Carter installs with his trigger upgrades), but the base model trigger is not adjustable, and while not horrible, it doesn't match the subtlety of the IZH/KSP and other guns. The take-up is relatively long, as is the reset, which can be quite frustrating in sustained fire.
The IZH and the Walther KSP are essentially the same, except that the stock grips on the Walther will probably fit more people, whereas the IZH grips are oversized for most hands, presumably so that one can alter them to fit. They balance very well to the fore and have the low bore-axis and forward grip-rake that I like. The triggers I've shot have been relatively crisp (not sure how much roll you could work in), but not obnoxiously so, and they are adjustable in more ways than most of their owners know how to exploit. Finish on the IZH is relatively crude, which is not especially the case with the KSP or with the Trailside, but that has little to do with how they shoot.
Being light and neutral in balance, the lower-end Trailside is an easy gun for the novice to shoot, and it has a conventionally mounted safety which is easy to reach from the stock grips (not sure about the models with the orthopedic grips). It makes an excellent plinker and could certainly be set up for serious target work. The KSP and IZH will never be much other than target guns. That’s the price of specialization.
Accuracy:
Accuracy of these guns, Trailside included, isn't really an issue: the gun is at least as accurate as most of us. It comes down to which one you shoot better, and the more specialized guns can usually be more easily tailored to individual shooting tastes.
In conclusion, were I in your place, I would buy the IZH or the KSP as a target gun and the Trailside as a very nice plinker. Personally, I like the Pardini SP better than the IZH, but it is three times the price. I’ve been through a succession of guns to get to the Pardini, including the Ruger, the 41, and the Trailside. Were I to start over with all of the advantage of hindsight I now possess, I would go straight for the Pardini, but were I to start anew with the same fear of investing too much in a growing hobby that I had when I started, I would pick the Baikal over any other gun in its price range. If you can get a KSP for a similar price to the IZH, so much the better.
A disclaimer to the above is that I am not an especially good shot, but I don’t feel that one’s skill is overly relevant to one’s choice in guns, as the more blameless the gun, the more the shooter can see what he is doing wrong.
The same site has a review of the IZH-35M:Illya Kuryakin wrote:This is one of the few more in-depth reviews I found on the Trailslide.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingti ... asp?ID=297
It includes comprehensive accuracy tests with different ammo.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/shootingti ... asp?ID=851
It isn't the best review I've read. Perhaps they could have found a target shooter to review a target gun?
Trailside Tweaking
IMHO In order to make the Trailside competitive I would suggest sending it to Larry Carter or buy it from him and have him do the necessary trigger work to make this gun behave like a ten-ring shooter.
IZH Experience
Gravedigger,
I don't have any experience with the Trailside, but I have shot the IZH-35 for over two years now and can give you my experience with it.
Reliability: I've only had one misfire/jam and that was due to a new magazine that needed some fitting and a lapse in my cleaning routine. While I've heard of some doubling and parts breakages, the only problem I have is that two of the upper shroud screws work themselves loose on a regular basis. It's not a big deal for me and I just make sure they're tight before shooting. Alternatively, you could locktite them closed.
It eats whatever ammo (.22 LR) I've put in it, but some types are more consistent than others. I've heard that the more expensive ammo with significant wax on the bullet has a tendency to jam more frequently than less expensive ammo because it fouls the chamber faster.
Importer Support: Having never had anything break, I can't tell you much about this. The extra magazines I ordered from EAA weren't a problem. I have added a weight and changed the shroud screws (the ones that come loose) recently from DJ Precision, and his service was excellent. He doesn't have factory parts, just a couple nice-to-have's.
Shootability / Accuracy: I shot a Pardini in college, got the IZH when I graduated and haven't had a problem making the switch. My scores are at, and above, what I was shooting with the Pardini, but that's mostly the additional experience. I don't feel the IZH is preventing me from doing better either. However, my scores did jump with the addition of the weight. For me, the stock IZH is just a little too light and I like to have some extra weight at the front (ala Pardini SP). I shoot iron sites, so I suspect that a red dot would have had a similar affect as the shroud weight.
While some have complained about the grip, it fits my hand ok. Certainly not like a Rink grip, but it does well enough that I don't feel my scores are affected. As others have mentioned, since the grips aren't anything special, I would feel comfortable making modifications to them if they didn't fit well enough.
That's my experience with the IZH-35. I agree with Mike Taylor that it's better suited for competitive shooting, especially NRA conventional pistol. If you just want a plinker I'd suggest looking at something else.
I don't have any experience with the Trailside, but I have shot the IZH-35 for over two years now and can give you my experience with it.
Reliability: I've only had one misfire/jam and that was due to a new magazine that needed some fitting and a lapse in my cleaning routine. While I've heard of some doubling and parts breakages, the only problem I have is that two of the upper shroud screws work themselves loose on a regular basis. It's not a big deal for me and I just make sure they're tight before shooting. Alternatively, you could locktite them closed.
It eats whatever ammo (.22 LR) I've put in it, but some types are more consistent than others. I've heard that the more expensive ammo with significant wax on the bullet has a tendency to jam more frequently than less expensive ammo because it fouls the chamber faster.
Importer Support: Having never had anything break, I can't tell you much about this. The extra magazines I ordered from EAA weren't a problem. I have added a weight and changed the shroud screws (the ones that come loose) recently from DJ Precision, and his service was excellent. He doesn't have factory parts, just a couple nice-to-have's.
Shootability / Accuracy: I shot a Pardini in college, got the IZH when I graduated and haven't had a problem making the switch. My scores are at, and above, what I was shooting with the Pardini, but that's mostly the additional experience. I don't feel the IZH is preventing me from doing better either. However, my scores did jump with the addition of the weight. For me, the stock IZH is just a little too light and I like to have some extra weight at the front (ala Pardini SP). I shoot iron sites, so I suspect that a red dot would have had a similar affect as the shroud weight.
While some have complained about the grip, it fits my hand ok. Certainly not like a Rink grip, but it does well enough that I don't feel my scores are affected. As others have mentioned, since the grips aren't anything special, I would feel comfortable making modifications to them if they didn't fit well enough.
That's my experience with the IZH-35. I agree with Mike Taylor that it's better suited for competitive shooting, especially NRA conventional pistol. If you just want a plinker I'd suggest looking at something else.
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Illya Kuryakin
I can't comment on either gun cos I grew up with the 208S! :)
However, I would seriously ask myself these questions:
1) What do I want to do with the gun? Pure ISSF style shooting only? Or throw in some camping fun with the gun and plinking?
2) What can the gun do for me (if I'm a more serious target shooter, or if there's any possibility that I may get into bullseye shooting in a big way later on)?
3) How adaptable is the gun/grips/trigger?
4) Will the gun be allowed under whatever set(s) of rules in the configuration I finally have it in if I intend to shoot with it in formal competitions?
5) As regards matters of reliability...What difficulties may I face if some part breaks, or I need the gun repaired/altered? What are the availability of spare parts/services/accessories? (Do I really need the last?)
Just some thoughts...
Have fun! :-)
However, I would seriously ask myself these questions:
1) What do I want to do with the gun? Pure ISSF style shooting only? Or throw in some camping fun with the gun and plinking?
2) What can the gun do for me (if I'm a more serious target shooter, or if there's any possibility that I may get into bullseye shooting in a big way later on)?
3) How adaptable is the gun/grips/trigger?
4) Will the gun be allowed under whatever set(s) of rules in the configuration I finally have it in if I intend to shoot with it in formal competitions?
5) As regards matters of reliability...What difficulties may I face if some part breaks, or I need the gun repaired/altered? What are the availability of spare parts/services/accessories? (Do I really need the last?)
Just some thoughts...
Have fun! :-)