32 vs 38

[Bill Poole]

I am seriously considering buying a Pardini HP in .32 for ISSF style CF.

But in discussing it with others, I hear that the .38 is more accurate, and that others have consistantly found better performance across a variety of .38's, revolvers and pistols, than with the olympic style .32 pistols.

I was under the impression that the .32 overwhelminly dominated ISSF style CF events.

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions?

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

[Rob]

Ive averaged about the same with my K38 Smith revolver as with the model 52. Where I did better in slow fire with the revolver than the 52, I shot the duel stage better with the 52. Always ended up in the 560's. When I got my HP I broke 570 one time but averaged lower with the .32. The revolver is fun to shoot and in the duel stage when you cock the hammer it gives your shoulder a nice rest. Most of the local International matches around here had the center fire match at the end of the day. After air, standard, and free my shoulder would get sore in the duelling stage. Morini grips on the K38 work great.

[Spencer C]

Yep! The .32 semi-autos are effectively all that is used at major ISSF competitions;

The semi-auto does not require cocking between exposures:
- this is a factor which reduces shooters being warned by ROs for not keeping the pistol in the correct direction. With a bit of practice it is easy to keep the pistol pointed below the target backstop while cocking, but a lot of revolver shooters still allow the barrel to come 'up' too far when cocking.
- additionaly the shooter can maintain a constant stance/position when there is no need to cockthe pistol.
- while the .38 spl loads are not savage on the shooter, the .32 is very light to shoot.

All things being equal, the .38 special is easier to reload and get CONSISTENT accuracy. The .32 swl seems to throw the occasional flyer with almopst any combination of pistol/ammunition. For ease of getting 10-ring (or better) accuracy the 148gr .38 takes a lot of beating.[/quote]

[funtoz]

The 38 is more accurate at 50 yards than the 32, if you use the stock barrel. ISSF centerfire is shot at 25 meters so that component is not a factor.

The 32 is harder to reload, is more sensitive for components, and good 32 bullets are harder to find and more expensive.

The shoulders of the scoring plugs used in ISSF centerfire are the same size so there is no advantage to the larger diameter 38 bullet.

All shots are essentially one at a time, with 7 seconds between shots in duel. There really is no recoil advantage other than in your head.

The only 38 auto that you might want to use is the S&W 52. It is notorious for being follow through sensitive and I see few in use. Revolvers for 32 in the US are hard to come by. The real choice is 32 auto or 38 revolver. I asked Doc Young if he felt there was an advantage to using an auto over revolver for ISSF centerfire. He felt there was none.

The pluses for the auto solution is low bore axis, adjustable trigger, and usually better sights.

The revolver is for the gun poor masses, lower initial cost and lower ammunition cost with acceptable performance.

I'm not sure what Spencer was referring to about cocking the revolver. All of the wheel gun shooters that I know cock the gun with their left thumb while in the low ready position... just don't rest the gun on the bench while cocking it.

Larry

[xtreme]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is the .32 shot gauged to .38?
I'm sure a .38 shooter would love to have his shots gauged with a .44 gauge.
If a .32 shooter have an advantage of lower bore, trigger adjustment etc, why the gauge difference? If I remember correctly, maybe 20 - 30 yrs ago, the .32 gauge WAS .32.
Does anyone know how this came about.

[Spencer C]

(I'm not sure what Spencer was referring to about cocking the revolver. All of the wheel gun shooters that I know cock the gun with their left thumb while in the low ready position... just don't rest the gun on the bench while cocking it.)

The 'old' way taught by coaches was to bring a revolver back to near vertical just out from the shooting arm shoulder, cock the hammer with the off hand and then lower the pistol down to the 'READY' position. Most competition shooters used this procedure with revolvers.
When the ISSF introduced the 'no higher than the backstop' rule (8.6.1.2) the shooters had to change the procedure to comply.

[Spencer C]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is the .32 shot gauged to .38?
I'm sure a .38 shooter would love to have his shots gauged with a .44 gauge.
If a .32 shooter have an advantage of lower bore, trigger adjustment etc, why the gauge difference? If I remember correctly, maybe 20 - 30 yrs ago, the .32 gauge WAS .32.
Does anyone know how this came about.

All ISSF centrefire pistol is gauged to 9.65mm (the old 'true' .38 cal). When you think it through, it relates to the centre of the shot hole irrespective of the calibre (7.62 to 9.65mm), i.e. the accuracy of the shot placement irrespective of the calibre used.

Spencer

[funtoz]

(I'm not sure what Spencer was referring to about cocking the revolver. All of the wheel gun shooters that I know cock the gun with their left thumb while in the low ready position... just don't rest the gun on the bench while cocking it.)

The 'old' way taught by coaches was to bring a revolver back to near vertical just out from the shooting arm shoulder, cock the hammer with the off hand and then lower the pistol down to the 'READY' position. Most competition shooters used this procedure with revolvers.
When the ISSF introduced the 'no higher than the backstop' rule (8.6.1.2) the shooters had to change the procedure to comply.

Thanks, interesting... learn something new all the time. I'm not sure I see much of an advantage to cocking in that manner since the shooter would have to lower to the ready position in the duel stage any way. I do agree that it is very unsafe, especially on ranges where there is insufficient baffling and effective ballistic canopy.

Larry

[David Levene]

Thanks, interesting... learn something new all the time. I'm not sure I see much of an advantage to cocking in that manner since the shooter would have to lower to the ready position in the duel stage any way. I do agree that it is very unsafe, especially on ranges where there is insufficient baffling and effective ballistic canopy.

The advantage was that you could cock the gun without twisting your body. You just had to move your free arm/hand. I was never happy with the safety aspect.

[Dusty]

For years I used a .38 revolver for ISSF CF. I finally took the plunge and bought a Hammerli in .32. Trigger is much better, sights are much better, recoil is much better, grip is amazing with better grip angle, confidence is way up.
Score is about the same.
My personal best has improved though, and my consistency is getting up there. With the better sights and low bore position, I am much better able to analyze my shots as they happen. After 4 months and about 1000 rounds, I am starting to move past what I thought was my ceiling.

[Alex L]

One point no-one has mentioned - with a .32 auto you only have one chamber, that gives more consistency than with a revolver, which has 6 chambers, and each one will line up fractionally differently.
I used to have a K38 Special revolver, and I numbered each chamber, 1 to 6. I tested each chamber on a bench rest, and marked the worst one. There was always one chamber that was less accurate than the others, and this is the one I marked, and then was able to leave empty when loading the 5 rounds for C/F.
The .32 auto that I now use is more accurate. It is a Walther GSP.
I have a special buffer which pads the recoil, and helps, a bit, too! The trigger mechanism is much finer, on the Walther, and the front and rear sights are quick to change for differing light conditions. - eg an open range, or one that is buffered.
I agree with Spencer's views regarding guageing,and some of the other comments which say you should Not use your shooting hand to cock the trigger - use the other hand.
I am enjoying the discussion - as an old, long time shooter!
From Alex L

[Bill Poole]

Well, that's 30 votes, doesn't that make it statistically significant that 70% or target talk readers use .32 pistols for CF.

Poole

[David Levene]

Well, that's 30 votes, doesn't that make it statistically significant that 70% or target talk readers use .32 pistols for CF.

This is no surprise. Look along the line of any major international match and I am sure you will find that the percentage is even higher.

[Guest]

Most .32 CF auto match pistols are manufactured in Europe. The test targets supplied with each gun usually displays an awesome grouping ability. With some targets it is also notified which ammunition was used to achive the group.

Testtarget showing very good groups would be sales promoting, I think.
By testfiring more models of european .32 match pistols from high quality fixtures during the years we have seldom been able to dublicate the group of the testtarget. Not with any factory ammunition, not even with the ammo brand notified by the factory. At least not at the pustulated firing distanse, usually 25 meters (roughly 28 yards)

To dublicate the groups of the testtargets the distanse would have to be redused to say 18 or even 15 meters. Could it be possible that.......? No, might God forbid. But very good testtargets are sales promoting, are´nt they?

BTW I think that most european match .32 CF´s are plenty accurate enough, even for the most dedicated marksman.
I am much more conserned about feeding reliability, which often is not perfect.

I welcome Your experiences and comments.

Regards.

[Bob Wiard]

Course one of the main reasons you find more Europian .32 autos in the US being used is that no one currently manufactures a pistol in .32 S&W Long here. Additionally that the current stock of .32's are more accurate is also a no brainer, they cost 2 to 3 times as much as a .38 revolver, so they better be more accurate. Now if you could find someone to manufacture a double action revolver that was as accurate as a Freedom Arms single action revolver, these numbers could change.

[UF]

Now if you could find someone to manufacture a double action revolver that was as accurate as a Freedom Arms single action revolver, these numbers could change.

The Manurhin MR 32 and MR 38 aren't?

[David Levene]

Now if you could find someone to manufacture a double action revolver that was as accurate as a Freedom Arms single action revolver, these numbers could change.

Bearing in mind that the original question was about the ISSF course of fire, why would you want a double action revolver instead of single action?

[Bob Wiard]

Sorry guys for grouping you together but....

UF, Hmm Manurhin...well I don't know, are the cylinders in-line bored? Can a Manurhin regularly shoot .25" groups @25 yrds or under 1" @ 50 yrds? A Freedom Arms single action revolver can. I couldn't find out about the accuracy of Manurhins just they won more ISSF matches than S&W. Additionally its not readily available here in the US, i.e. no one stocks it, so you buy one in either Oz or Germany, buy it, import it, & pay duty on it. And since there is no authorized repair or warranty station, send it out of country to be worked on.

David Levene, Because a Freedom Arms revolver is based on the Colt Single Action Army, you unload one chamber at a time and reload one chamber at a time. A "modern" double action has a swing out cylinder which allows you to unload and reload all the chambers of the cylinder at once rather than one at a time. Now if the time between series was more than 1 minute....

[UF]

UF, Hmm Manurhin...well I don't know, are the cylinders in-line bored? Can a Manurhin regularly shoot .25" groups @25 yrds or under 1" @ 50 yrds?

It's not manufactured using that method, but they seem to be using better ways than the traditional ones to get very low tolerances anyway. As shooter + gun + ammunition can get groups very little more than the above I'm sure the answer is "yes".

Reason I asked is that FA revolvers are quite uncommon in Sweden as outside of ISSF you're sort of restricted in what you can use them for (field target requires 6 rounds).

[David Levene]

David Levene, Because a Freedom Arms revolver is based on the Colt Single Action Army, you unload one chamber at a time and reload one chamber at a time. A "modern" double action has a swing out cylinder which allows you to unload and reload all the chambers of the cylinder at once rather than one at a time. Now if the time between series was more than 1 minute....

That doesn't explain why you would want a double action revolver instead of a single action.

I would have thought it would be much better to have a dedicated single action trigger mechanism (like the early Mod 14 K38 Masterpiece), where the only thing that pulling the trigger does is to release the hammer, than to have a double action where the trigger mechanism has the added unnecessary design complication of turning/locking the cylinder and cocking the hammer.