Hi All!
I am searching for a used .22 for USA/ISSF competitions. My daughter is making the transition from sporter into the precision world, so I would prefer to find something a little cheaper than buying brand new.
Also, if there are any recommendations on other places to help with my search, they would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Looking for 3p .22
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
Feel free to post for sale items as long as they are directly related to International type shooting
If you sell something, we would very much appreciate a donation of $5-10 either mailed to us or paypalled to us.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Feel free to post for sale items as long as they are directly related to International type shooting
If you sell something, we would very much appreciate a donation of $5-10 either mailed to us or paypalled to us.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Re: Looking for 3p .22
Not mine but looks like a good choice…
https://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=69458
https://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=69458
Re: Looking for 3p .22
A 1907 might be better, depending om your daughter’s age and build… 1913 is heavy, and a lot if forward weight…
Re: Looking for 3p .22
That's a 1912, not a 1913 though. That usually shipped with a 1907 barreled action, and the stock was a bit more svelte in most dimensions than the 1913 stock. Total package weight was about 500g lighter than a 1913 package.jsealc21 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:05 pmA 1907 might be better, depending om your daughter’s age and build… 1913 is heavy, and a lot if forward weight…pdeal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 31, 2025 2:27 pm Not mine but looks like a good choice…
https://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=69458
OP, is there a precision smallbore program near you? If there is, I'd check with the coaching staff there before shopping for a rifle. They'd be able to give you more targeted (heh) recommendations on what to look for, and with any luck they'd have a rifle you could get started with. Even the 1912 and 1914 (https://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=69429) that are posted here are going to be quite a bit heavier than she's used to, and depending on her height, weight, and arm length that could be a recipe for frustration.
Options for 3p .22
Rifles:
Top quality, very likely to be accurate without prior selection: Keppeler, Tanner, Bleiker, Gruenig & Elmiger. Tanner does not make metal stocks, being of the view that they just are not as good. Keppeler stock systems are the best. Otakar was excellent, but is out of production.
Second tier (or second rate?)--durable, significant variation in accuracy in production runs. Rifles need to be individually tested and selected for accuracy, to a lesser extent for function: Anschutz, FWB, Walther match series. For the Walther KKM, if an adjustable stock is desired, the GX-1 is a KKM with that stock, but the Tesro stocks can be used with the KKM in general, and are good for that general type of stock (metal). FWB will not accept Walther or Anschutz sights unless an adapter is used, or V block is recut a little.
Third tier (usually can hit the broadside of a barn): Ruger
Price-benefit ratio: Don't overlook the Walther BV at current prices. Not a perfect rifle, but a good cost-benefit ratio at current prices.
Use setting:
If in a program, the instructors or coaches may have very specific perceptions on what is best. Going in other directions can cause student-teacher conflict and backlash. Some of the greatest marksmen of all time just went their own way and determined what was best for their use, on their own. That can be a source of conflict. Some sports programs that are closely linked to high profit manufacturers financially don't favor that type of independent judgment or action. Others are neutral. A few encourage exploration and innovation.
Sources:
Ideally, accepts returns for any reason within 2 weeks of test use, and is more concerned about matching the gun to the buyer than in making a sale. Has used and tested the rifle personally including for accuracy, tells you about others to consider that the seller is not offering.
Can provide details of comparison for a particular rifle, to others that might be available from any source.
Is willing to provide references from prior buyers/customers.
Does not accept personal checks is a warning sign, but not necessarily an end-it-there signal.
Any technical error at all about the rifle and its capabilities are distinct warning signs for the entire deal.
Usually someone located "down the road" from where you live or work may be best, for reliability as a person. But be careful about the knowledge issue, and be sure there is returnability for full refund within a reasonable period of time that allows you to fully test the rifle and have it evaluated by soneone who knows both the guns (in general) and the intended use of it.
Top quality, very likely to be accurate without prior selection: Keppeler, Tanner, Bleiker, Gruenig & Elmiger. Tanner does not make metal stocks, being of the view that they just are not as good. Keppeler stock systems are the best. Otakar was excellent, but is out of production.
Second tier (or second rate?)--durable, significant variation in accuracy in production runs. Rifles need to be individually tested and selected for accuracy, to a lesser extent for function: Anschutz, FWB, Walther match series. For the Walther KKM, if an adjustable stock is desired, the GX-1 is a KKM with that stock, but the Tesro stocks can be used with the KKM in general, and are good for that general type of stock (metal). FWB will not accept Walther or Anschutz sights unless an adapter is used, or V block is recut a little.
Third tier (usually can hit the broadside of a barn): Ruger
Price-benefit ratio: Don't overlook the Walther BV at current prices. Not a perfect rifle, but a good cost-benefit ratio at current prices.
Use setting:
If in a program, the instructors or coaches may have very specific perceptions on what is best. Going in other directions can cause student-teacher conflict and backlash. Some of the greatest marksmen of all time just went their own way and determined what was best for their use, on their own. That can be a source of conflict. Some sports programs that are closely linked to high profit manufacturers financially don't favor that type of independent judgment or action. Others are neutral. A few encourage exploration and innovation.
Sources:
Ideally, accepts returns for any reason within 2 weeks of test use, and is more concerned about matching the gun to the buyer than in making a sale. Has used and tested the rifle personally including for accuracy, tells you about others to consider that the seller is not offering.
Can provide details of comparison for a particular rifle, to others that might be available from any source.
Is willing to provide references from prior buyers/customers.
Does not accept personal checks is a warning sign, but not necessarily an end-it-there signal.
Any technical error at all about the rifle and its capabilities are distinct warning signs for the entire deal.
Usually someone located "down the road" from where you live or work may be best, for reliability as a person. But be careful about the knowledge issue, and be sure there is returnability for full refund within a reasonable period of time that allows you to fully test the rifle and have it evaluated by soneone who knows both the guns (in general) and the intended use of it.
Re: Options for 3p .22
Hmm, are Kepeller smallbores common in your part of the world? These sure aren't here. Other than Jonas Edman's (Sydney 2000 Olympic Champ) I've found two for sale in Germany.
Tanner, yes everyone agrees the quality is excellent, but these are only slightly more available than Keppeller. Tanner rifles are also big and heavy, especially the older models that appear for sale. The sights and stock fittings are also proprietary, which adds co.plications should the OP's daughter start reaching finals in the future.
Bleiker and Grunig, great rifles, but still very expensive second hand. The OP hasn't stated a budget, but is looking for a used rifle to reduce costs; suggesting two of the costliest .22 rifles on the market.
Walrher BV? Zero parts availability and a 45 yo electronic trigger might not be ideal for a competitor. The action won't fit modern stocks, so the OP would be stuck with a basic ine-size-fits-all stock.
Resoruces for rifles
As insightfully noted above, resources for rifles can be a problem if one doesn't know the field.
My own local area is an economically disadvantaged area of Appalachia, where the city or town has no public water supply no sewers, no police department until a few days ago, a fire department that just checks embers to be sure they are only glowing, and 50% of the school students completely fail the state math and English tests every year. That said, a local source has about 6 G&E, 6 Tanner, about 4 Keppeler rifles available, one Bleiker, some pre-tested or verified 0.1MOA Anschutz in Keppeler and Otakar stocks, and even a lowly and "cheap" Walther GX-1 as a complete kit or set. It's more a matter of knowing where to look.
As to the BV, yes, the electronic trigger model should be avoided, and when it fails, it is difficult to obtain mechanical ones to swap or replace. BV with OEM mechanical ones are low priced enough that they can just be tossed if not as desired, a Tesro metal stock can be adapted, the Keppeler stocks can used with adapter plates, or a wood one can be customized. The main advantage of the Tanner guns, in addition to the basic quality which is amazing and the unique trigger design, is the sight system. This can be emulated with adapters for the others, except perhaps FWB due to the shape of the mounting dovetail caps. As mentioned, adaptability and the process of learning adaptability can be a part of advanced marksmanship, and are an integral part of nearly all advanced military and intel training for areas overlapping "marksmanship". But sometimes, not part of standard competition shooting training.
Tanner aiso is unusual among the manufacturers in being both willing, and also able to provide exact replacement parts from just the SN of the rifle, even though they made many changes in each production run.
The questions remain. How much is it worth to get a rifle that is "certain" to be accurate to about 0.1 or 0.2 MOA vs getting an iffy one that might or might not do that or to search through a pile of iffies from Anschutz, Walther, or FWB looking for one that is that accurate, or is a more routine gun good enough at about 1 MOA or so?
Incidentally, if the BV is considered, the name was used for two completely different rifle systems. The one referenced is the .22LR gun, that was made from about 1985 to 1990, and is a falling block or Martini style action, sold either with mechanical trigger similar (but not identical) to the KK-200, and with an electronic trigger like the one for the KK-200. The electronic trigger, for either action or rifle, was undesirable and had a very high failure rate, as well as being problematic in both training and competition due to the details of its operating system (OS).
If one does not have access to qualified gunsmiths, can't recut or adjust stocks or adapt them for a different action, or the user can't otherwise adapt to circumstances, that too needs to be considered. However, for most, the biggest problem is at an earlier step--- finding a sales source who is reliable, honest, cares about the needs of the shooter, and really tries to find the best solution to their needs, beyond what they have in stock at the moment. For most rifles other than the few identified above, the brand does not define whether it really is competition quality or not, or just scrap metal with a name stamped into it. The critical question is not the brand or model of rifle, but is the honesty and reliability of information from the seller and whether the particular rifle being sold was tested for adequacy (whether it is new or used), if it is not from one of the makers that reliably produces and issues rifles of that quality like Tanner, G&E, Keppeler, and Bleiker.
My own local area is an economically disadvantaged area of Appalachia, where the city or town has no public water supply no sewers, no police department until a few days ago, a fire department that just checks embers to be sure they are only glowing, and 50% of the school students completely fail the state math and English tests every year. That said, a local source has about 6 G&E, 6 Tanner, about 4 Keppeler rifles available, one Bleiker, some pre-tested or verified 0.1MOA Anschutz in Keppeler and Otakar stocks, and even a lowly and "cheap" Walther GX-1 as a complete kit or set. It's more a matter of knowing where to look.
As to the BV, yes, the electronic trigger model should be avoided, and when it fails, it is difficult to obtain mechanical ones to swap or replace. BV with OEM mechanical ones are low priced enough that they can just be tossed if not as desired, a Tesro metal stock can be adapted, the Keppeler stocks can used with adapter plates, or a wood one can be customized. The main advantage of the Tanner guns, in addition to the basic quality which is amazing and the unique trigger design, is the sight system. This can be emulated with adapters for the others, except perhaps FWB due to the shape of the mounting dovetail caps. As mentioned, adaptability and the process of learning adaptability can be a part of advanced marksmanship, and are an integral part of nearly all advanced military and intel training for areas overlapping "marksmanship". But sometimes, not part of standard competition shooting training.
Tanner aiso is unusual among the manufacturers in being both willing, and also able to provide exact replacement parts from just the SN of the rifle, even though they made many changes in each production run.
The questions remain. How much is it worth to get a rifle that is "certain" to be accurate to about 0.1 or 0.2 MOA vs getting an iffy one that might or might not do that or to search through a pile of iffies from Anschutz, Walther, or FWB looking for one that is that accurate, or is a more routine gun good enough at about 1 MOA or so?
Incidentally, if the BV is considered, the name was used for two completely different rifle systems. The one referenced is the .22LR gun, that was made from about 1985 to 1990, and is a falling block or Martini style action, sold either with mechanical trigger similar (but not identical) to the KK-200, and with an electronic trigger like the one for the KK-200. The electronic trigger, for either action or rifle, was undesirable and had a very high failure rate, as well as being problematic in both training and competition due to the details of its operating system (OS).
If one does not have access to qualified gunsmiths, can't recut or adjust stocks or adapt them for a different action, or the user can't otherwise adapt to circumstances, that too needs to be considered. However, for most, the biggest problem is at an earlier step--- finding a sales source who is reliable, honest, cares about the needs of the shooter, and really tries to find the best solution to their needs, beyond what they have in stock at the moment. For most rifles other than the few identified above, the brand does not define whether it really is competition quality or not, or just scrap metal with a name stamped into it. The critical question is not the brand or model of rifle, but is the honesty and reliability of information from the seller and whether the particular rifle being sold was tested for adequacy (whether it is new or used), if it is not from one of the makers that reliably produces and issues rifles of that quality like Tanner, G&E, Keppeler, and Bleiker.
Re: Looking for 3p .22
Again, your suggestions are valid for an established shooter wanting something interesting, but are questionable choices for a beginner, one who may need to upgrade in size, and might not stay in the sport for a lifetime.
The OP might be better served with a less recherche rifle that's an appropriate size, rather than a 14lb 28in barrel Tanner. Not requiring gunsmithing to upgrade would be an advantage. Take the Walther BV, and yes I know this stands for Block Verschuss, and is not a bolt action (nor a Martini which is a tipping block not a falling block), do Keppeler, or anyone else, make a bedding adaptor for any modern stock? If not, one has to be custom-made at additional time and expense. While Tanner may offer great parts support, these have to come from Switzerland, and will not be cheap. My point was that standard sights and accessories won't fit, so the local second hand market is no use.
Also. 0.1moa translates to about 1.5mm /0.06in dispersion at 50m. Did you mean .1in?
The OP might be better served with a less recherche rifle that's an appropriate size, rather than a 14lb 28in barrel Tanner. Not requiring gunsmithing to upgrade would be an advantage. Take the Walther BV, and yes I know this stands for Block Verschuss, and is not a bolt action (nor a Martini which is a tipping block not a falling block), do Keppeler, or anyone else, make a bedding adaptor for any modern stock? If not, one has to be custom-made at additional time and expense. While Tanner may offer great parts support, these have to come from Switzerland, and will not be cheap. My point was that standard sights and accessories won't fit, so the local second hand market is no use.
Also. 0.1moa translates to about 1.5mm /0.06in dispersion at 50m. Did you mean .1in?
Last edited by Tim S on Wed Apr 02, 2025 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Options for 3p .22
0.1 MOA is quite the claim. Got any pictures to back that up? Or maybe the name of the dealer with those guns for sale?_J_ wrote: ↑Tue Apr 01, 2025 3:52 pm ...a local source has about 6 G&E, 6 Tanner, about 4 Keppeler rifles available, one Bleiker, some pre-tested or verified 0.1MOA Anschutz in Keppeler and Otakar stocks, and even a lowly and "cheap" Walther GX-1 as a complete kit or set. It's more a matter of knowing where to look.
This is, frankly, terrible advice for someone just entering the 3P game. If Keppeler or Tanner offered any meaningful advantage, the firing line at international events would be full of them. They're not. The thing that matters far more for what OP is asking is finding a rifle that fits that they can reliably get parts for in the US at a mostly reasonable price. And that means Anschutz, FWB, Walther. Suggesting a rare, vintage, hard-to-find-parts-for rifle is exactly the opposite of what they need._J_ wrote: ↑Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:32 pm Rifles:
Top quality, very likely to be accurate without prior selection: Keppeler, Tanner, Bleiker, Gruenig & Elmiger. Tanner does not make metal stocks, being of the view that they just are not as good. Keppeler stock systems are the best. Otakar was excellent, but is out of production.
Re: Options for 3p .22
I'm told there were only a handful of Keppeler-built 50m rifles anyway, most of which are back at the factory, including Edman's Olympic gold medal winner.
-
Mississippi_gunner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2025 5:01 pm
Re: Looking for 3p .22
Thank you to everyone for the insight!
Two of the biggest concerns we will have: 1) being able to quickly get any parts inside the US; 2) the length of pull. I know most have adjustable buttstocks, but the Anschutz she has been shooting doesn’t allow for the adjustment that she needs (length of pull is too long even at shortest adjustment).
She is a freshman in high school, so I’m not trying to break the bank until maybe closer to graduation. However, I’m trying to get her what she needs to be successful in her growth of the sport, and I would preferably like to find something used.
We live in rural town, so we don’t have real access to any major programs. I have tried reaching out to our local university for some guidance with no luck, so my largest hurdle appears to be locating where to find used small bores just in general.
I appreciate everyone’s help so far!
Two of the biggest concerns we will have: 1) being able to quickly get any parts inside the US; 2) the length of pull. I know most have adjustable buttstocks, but the Anschutz she has been shooting doesn’t allow for the adjustment that she needs (length of pull is too long even at shortest adjustment).
She is a freshman in high school, so I’m not trying to break the bank until maybe closer to graduation. However, I’m trying to get her what she needs to be successful in her growth of the sport, and I would preferably like to find something used.
We live in rural town, so we don’t have real access to any major programs. I have tried reaching out to our local university for some guidance with no luck, so my largest hurdle appears to be locating where to find used small bores just in general.
I appreciate everyone’s help so far!
Re: Looking for 3p .22
You're welcome.Mississippi_gunner wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 10:59 am Thank you to everyone for the insight!
Two of the biggest concerns we will have: 1) being able to quickly get any parts inside the US; 2) the length of pull. I know most have adjustable buttstocks, but the Anschutz she has been shooting doesn’t allow for the adjustment that she needs (length of pull is too long even at shortest adjustment).
She is a freshman in high school, so I’m not trying to break the bank.
I appreciate everyone’s help so far!
LOP can be an issue. Most wood stocked Anschutz rifles are about 11in from the buttplate to the grip; in my experience this is roughly sized for a 5ft 8in adult. Some wood stocks can be easily shortened though; my wife used to shoot prone eith an Anschutz 1811 (1989s vintage prone-only design) with 2-3in off the butt and a lighter barrel. Aluminium stocks are typically shorter as standard; some are really short like the 1918 Precise or Walther's KK500. Against this alu stocks usually make a rifle more expensive; these only coming on the market in the late '90s-2000s.
The Anschutz 1912 linked above is an example of a smaller wood stock. It was designed for women. The butt and grip are smaller than the men's equivalent (1913). Also the action is set further back for easier loading/less forwards balance than the basic 1907 Match 54. The metal adjustment hardware makes it heavier than a 1907 with the same barrel.
If you find a rifle within budget that looks good you can ask fir opinions on the forum. Anschutz models can be confusing, but more experienced members can usually tell you exactly what a given rifle is.
Re: Looking for 3p .22
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/ ... 0.1323021/
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/ ... t.1319918/
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/ ... 0.1319527/
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1098605278
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1084477777
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1087498228
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1098059385
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1086578756
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1086849408
https://www.gunbroker.com/bolt-action-r ... r=.22%20lr
https://www.gunbroker.com/bolt-action-r ... r=.22%20LR
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/ ... t.1319918/
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/ ... 0.1319527/
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1098605278
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1084477777
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1087498228
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1098059385
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1086578756
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1086849408
https://www.gunbroker.com/bolt-action-r ... r=.22%20lr
https://www.gunbroker.com/bolt-action-r ... r=.22%20LR
Re: Looking for 3p .22
Where in Mississippi are you located?
The USA Shooting Rifle and Pistol Junior Olympics Matches will take place at the CMP ranges in Anniston and Talladega Alabama starting Sunday, 04-13 and end Friday 04-18.
There will be several hundred athletes participating in this event.
There will be multiple equipment vendors there and there is often used equipment available for sale at these events.
If nothing else, it would be well worth your time to be able to see/handle first hand what is currently available and being used in the sport.
The USA Shooting Rifle and Pistol Junior Olympics Matches will take place at the CMP ranges in Anniston and Talladega Alabama starting Sunday, 04-13 and end Friday 04-18.
There will be several hundred athletes participating in this event.
There will be multiple equipment vendors there and there is often used equipment available for sale at these events.
If nothing else, it would be well worth your time to be able to see/handle first hand what is currently available and being used in the sport.
Re: Looking for 3p .22
Can you post a photo of what she's using now? That might give us a better idea of where to steer you. Is that a club/loaner gun, or is it yours already?Mississippi_gunner wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 10:59 am Two of the biggest concerns we will have: 1) being able to quickly get any parts inside the US; 2) the length of pull. I know most have adjustable buttstocks, but the Anschutz she has been shooting doesn’t allow for the adjustment that she needs (length of pull is too long even at shortest adjustment).
Oh yeah, make time for that if at all possible. In addition to hands-on-gear time, that's a great opportunity to meet folks in the sport, see what people are using, how the matches run, how athletes compete, etc. She would be able to get measured for jacket/pants while she's there as well, if that's on your to do list. Ole Miss hosts collegiate matches during the season too; they're done for this school year already, but will start back up in October.
Yeah, that's really the trick -- very few folks will have a reliable source close by. But you've found the right forum!Mississippi_gunner wrote: ↑Wed Apr 02, 2025 10:59 am ...my largest hurdle appears to be locating where to find used small bores just in general.