New(ish) shooter with questions on sights

[random_guy7531]

Hello all!

Glad I found this forum! I've been playing the action pistol games (USPSA / IPSC / IDPA, etc.) for several years now at a decently high level, and I recently decided to take up some more olympic style training. The rapid fire event in particular interested me, but with no place to really train it, I instead picked up an Air Venturi V10 match air pistol (since I can just train that at home!). However, I've run into a couple of issues I hope folks can help me with!

• Iron sighted divisions in IPSC etc. pretty much universally use fiber front sights and black rears. I'd like to get as close as I can to this setup in an olympic pistol, both because it's what I have experience with, and also because of the point below. Rule 8.4.1.3(a) does state:

  Only open sights are allowed. Sights using fibre optic, light enhancing or
  reflecting colour surfaces are prohibited. Optical, mirror, telescope, laser-beam,
  electronically projected dot sights etc. are prohibited

  However, this does not seem to rule out the use of colors other than black for the front sight. Would a brass bead front sight, for example, be permitted? Would painting the front sight a matte red? I am essentially at a loss at how to define 'reflecting colour surfaces'. If the goal of the rule is to prohibit Nydar or Occluded-eye style of sights, then I guess Im good to go, but otherwise, where is the limit? Does anyone currently shooting at a high level have brass or perhaps in-the-white steel sights?
  -
• With a black target/black front sight/ black rear sight I essentially get zero contrast, making it impossible to determine point of aim. How are people addressing this? A contrasting color of front sight would obviously solve this (see above), but is there some other answer Im missing here? A 6' oclock hold zero might address this, but that effectively makes it impossible to train on reduced distances/targets (amongst other issues). During practice, I observe significantly better results using targets where the 9-X rings are whited out as opposed to the full-black versions, simply because I can actually *see* my sights. Is a center-hold really not common in olympic shooting (because its pretty much universal in the action sports haha)!

Thanks for whatever pointers folks can provide!

[Ziperix]

"Is a center-hold really not common in olympic shooting"

Yes, pretty much everyone uses sub 6 hold, it's just superior to other holds. I honestly have no idea if there's a rule that states the sights need to be black but I've never seen anyone shoot with colored front/rear sight and to be honest "reflecting color surfaces are prohibited" sounds like "anything other than black is prohibited".

[Gwhite]

I have used an orange chalk mark on my front sight for decades, and the students I coach often find it useful to help them focus on their front sights. Nobody at equipment check has ever complained that the chalk was 'reflective' and violated the rules. The idea is NOT to have an orange sight, but to give it some character to focus on. Once you get too used to it, wipe it off with your thumb & put on a different mark.

Very few Olympic shooters use a center hold for precision events, like air pistol or the precision stage of Sport Pistol. Center hold is used for Rapid Fire and the Rapid stage of Sport Pistol. A sub-six/area hold is preferred for precision shooting.

There has been mention on the forum here that Rapid Fire is going away as an Olympic event. I've had this confirmed by a member of the US Olympic team. The target requirements make it prohibitive for most ranges, so it's difficult to find ranges to practice, or that hold matches. Nobody knows what sort of event will replace it, but the decision will probably be made this Fall.

[random_guy7531]

Thanks for the input! I definitely got the vibe that rapid fire was on its way out - that's more than a bit unfortunate, as its definitely the closest to IPSC or any of the other disciplines Ive found fun in the past.

Also glad to hear about different colored sights - Ill try out the chalk tip for sure at least, but if it works Ill probably figure out something more long term (it wouldn't be the first pistol I have with nail polish on the sight haha!)

Some follow up questions though re: 600 hold.

Very few Olympic shooters use a center hold for precision events, like air pistol or the precision stage of Sport Pistol. Center hold is used for Rapid Fire and the Rapid stage of Sport Pistol. A sub-six/area hold is preferred for precision shooting.

Why is this the case? Personally, it seems like an incorrect approach to the task - instead of requiring 3 points of perception (front sight on center, left gap, right gap), a 6 oclock hold requires 4 ( + distance below the desired PoI). Also, it now means that training at closer distances is effectively impossible - not only will the target need to be scaled, but its height *and* the guns zero must be changed. Even further, those changes are based on the shooters actual physiology, not just to some fixed multiplier, and it introduces the potential for those physiological changes to affect training goals.

Are competitors performing such wild re-zeros between practice/dry-fire and competition distances that frequently? Is the 600 hold purely an artifact of 10m air pistol target distances being so fixed over time, and everyone using black sights on a black target? I don't really see where any increased precision may be coming from to be honest, and it also seems like any perturbation to setup introduces confounding variables to the training problem.

If I see any success in using center hold and a colored front blade, I will likely continue with that for now, even if just for my own edification, but I'd be interested to hear from coaches why this became the meta (or perhaps more usefully, why the more general zeros used in other disciplines are *not* the meta).

Thanks!

[Grippy]

Not sure I follow the rezeroing issue? I don't think people commonly live fire at other distances than 10m. For dry fire it doesn't really matter since you aren't observing where the gun hypothetically shoots anyway. Except maybe if you use a SCATT but then you zero that and not the sights.

In 28 years of AP shooting that has never come up for me. Worst case you do the same thing most people do on 25m where they just know how many clicks they need to adjust between precision and rapid fire stages.

[Ziperix]

With reduced targets you would also have to scale the pellets.. I would image most people have a way to live fire at 10min in their houses/backyards. When I lived in a small apartment I had to scale target to 5m but I would only use it for dry fire and then I would live fire at the range.

[Gwhite]

You can adjust the size of the scoring rings to account for the pellet/bullet diameter. We used to shoot free pistol at 50 feet instead of 50 meters, and the 10 ring was tiny to account for the bullet diameter.

Besides, unless you are competing at a reduced range, the score is not what is important. The size of your group & elimination of flyers is what you need to work on. If you master that, the scores will be there when you shoot at 10 meters.

[David M]

sight picture 70%.jpg (12.32 KiB) Viewed 2120 times

Sub 6 o'clock sight picture.
It does not matter what colour you put on your fore sight, because as we shoot from
an under cover shooting bay and and not in direct sunlight the sights just appear black.

Note/ The foresight is sharp and very black, has a square appearance and is about 70% the t width of t he target.
The rear sight is very slightly blurred and has a little grey tinge.
The light gaps under the target and on the side are equal.
The target is blurred and grey.

[David M]

Rapid_Aim.jpg (45.52 KiB) Viewed 2118 times

Rapidfire is nearly centre aim, just low of centre to see ther aiming marks.
Note/ The rear sight is now a lot wider the the sub 6 sights.
This allows a quicker pick up of the sights for the shorter times to shoot.