It seems easy enough to do for others but how did you come up with your 'time to switch gun' call?
.49236.0
how do you detarmine when your gun is the limitation?
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Steve T
Re: how do you detarmine when your gun is the limitation?
When my offhand groups were less than twice as big as my braced groups I figured the gun needed work.
You can't reliably call a shot if 1/2 the error is random.
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You can't reliably call a shot if 1/2 the error is random.
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Roland Cannon
For me....
It had to be when I started wondering about it. Somehow I could test this gun every way to Sunday (Tau 7) and despite the results my brain kept saying....what if...
The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
.49248.49236
The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
.49248.49236
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Mark.
It's a Personal Thing...
Some folks will shoot forever with a pistol that's a piece of crap and will never change. Others hop from gun to gun like frogs in a lily pad pond.
I started with a pair of TAU-7's. These were fine pistols that took me well into the 520's in terms of score. But after a while I started to feel their triggers were not particularly consistant. I'd break one shot easily, and then the next would require me to have to virtually lean on the trigger to make it go bang. All of this is probably not true. Perhaps there were a few grams of difference in letoff weight from shot to shot. But it was enough for me to start calling into question the reliability of the equipment.
The next pistol to enter the stable is a Steyr LP1. The trigger on that thing is nothing short of fantastic. I do not doubt for a second that a poor shot is the fault of the shooter. I also have an LP10. The trigger on it is less than fantastic, but very consistant. With the recoil compensator and virtually motionless shot release, I know when I've screwed up because I can actually see it happening. Nothing in shooting is as funny as the little conversations that go on inside our head after we shoot a poor shot. "Gee, I bet I can't screw up that badly twice in a row!" Or, "Hmmm, by now I should know enough not to YANK on the trigger!"
As my age and computer use increases, my shoulders and forearms have taken a beating. This being the case, I'm starting to have trouble controlling a muzzle-heavy pistol. So the next step on the evolution of my airgun inventory has been the acquisition of a Morini 162 Short. I shoot equally well (or poorly) with it as with the Steyrs, but I've only had it for a week. My initial impressions lead me to believe it will play a role in stopping the downward slide of my scores. If for no other reason than as a confidence builder, because most of this game is in our heads.
Mark.
.49251.49236
I started with a pair of TAU-7's. These were fine pistols that took me well into the 520's in terms of score. But after a while I started to feel their triggers were not particularly consistant. I'd break one shot easily, and then the next would require me to have to virtually lean on the trigger to make it go bang. All of this is probably not true. Perhaps there were a few grams of difference in letoff weight from shot to shot. But it was enough for me to start calling into question the reliability of the equipment.
The next pistol to enter the stable is a Steyr LP1. The trigger on that thing is nothing short of fantastic. I do not doubt for a second that a poor shot is the fault of the shooter. I also have an LP10. The trigger on it is less than fantastic, but very consistant. With the recoil compensator and virtually motionless shot release, I know when I've screwed up because I can actually see it happening. Nothing in shooting is as funny as the little conversations that go on inside our head after we shoot a poor shot. "Gee, I bet I can't screw up that badly twice in a row!" Or, "Hmmm, by now I should know enough not to YANK on the trigger!"
As my age and computer use increases, my shoulders and forearms have taken a beating. This being the case, I'm starting to have trouble controlling a muzzle-heavy pistol. So the next step on the evolution of my airgun inventory has been the acquisition of a Morini 162 Short. I shoot equally well (or poorly) with it as with the Steyrs, but I've only had it for a week. My initial impressions lead me to believe it will play a role in stopping the downward slide of my scores. If for no other reason than as a confidence builder, because most of this game is in our heads.
Mark.
.49251.49236
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Rodm
It's a personal thing II
Basicly this is agreeing with Mark. Assuming that you are shooting a Tau or IZH or equivalent than the answer is when you are trying to make the finals in the national championships. Now most of us know we will never be in the finals of the nationals but we do upgrade anyway. The reasion is that it is a little more fun when you have a state of the art gun. Or is it that we want the pressure to have no excuse to balme our bad shots. In my case it was when I wanted the new gun enough to face the wrath of my better half. So the real answer is when you want it enough to pay for it. Few of us are gifted enought to justify it.
What you are buying is better sights, trigger, and grips, not a gun that is more accurate. After 2 or 3 months you can expect your scores to creep back to the where you were before you bought it. Good luck and have enjoy.
: It seems easy enough to do for others but how did you come up with your 'time to switch gun' call?
ramadsen-at-iname.com.49256.49236
What you are buying is better sights, trigger, and grips, not a gun that is more accurate. After 2 or 3 months you can expect your scores to creep back to the where you were before you bought it. Good luck and have enjoy.
: It seems easy enough to do for others but how did you come up with your 'time to switch gun' call?
ramadsen-at-iname.com.49256.49236
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Steve Swartz
Re: how do you detarmine when your gun is the limitation?
Always.
Consider this: the "shooting system" consists of you AND your gun. The "shooting system" is what puts the holes in the paper.
You contribute "error" to the system. Your gun contributes error tot eh system. There is an interaction between you and your gun that contributes to error.
The best possible gun in the world won't make your error smaller. It will, however, reduce the source of error from the gun part of the system.
Warning: some statistical theorems are about to be violated, but the point is not changed or invalidated with the following example:
Consider that you can personally hold (let's say) a .75" circle on the target. Your gun can shoot a .25" group. Your system error is 1.00"; that's teh best you and your gun can shoot. Now let's ask the question: is buying a 0.01" gun worth it?
Every gun ever made "will shoot better than you can." That's a silly thing to say. Buy the best gun you can afford- that way you'll know the errors downrange are YOURS, and not be fooled into thinking your crappy shooting is due to your crappy gun!
Note: The interaction effect? Account for this by buying the gun that "feels best" in your hand- once the requirement for shooting 0.01" groups is met. The "most accurate gun" is a necessary condition; and all "match grade" guns pass that test. The ergonomics of the gun you buy is the deciding factor.
Steve Swartz
: It seems easy enough to do for others but how did you come up with your 'time to switch gun' call?
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.49264.49236
Consider this: the "shooting system" consists of you AND your gun. The "shooting system" is what puts the holes in the paper.
You contribute "error" to the system. Your gun contributes error tot eh system. There is an interaction between you and your gun that contributes to error.
The best possible gun in the world won't make your error smaller. It will, however, reduce the source of error from the gun part of the system.
Warning: some statistical theorems are about to be violated, but the point is not changed or invalidated with the following example:
Consider that you can personally hold (let's say) a .75" circle on the target. Your gun can shoot a .25" group. Your system error is 1.00"; that's teh best you and your gun can shoot. Now let's ask the question: is buying a 0.01" gun worth it?
Every gun ever made "will shoot better than you can." That's a silly thing to say. Buy the best gun you can afford- that way you'll know the errors downrange are YOURS, and not be fooled into thinking your crappy shooting is due to your crappy gun!
Note: The interaction effect? Account for this by buying the gun that "feels best" in your hand- once the requirement for shooting 0.01" groups is met. The "most accurate gun" is a necessary condition; and all "match grade" guns pass that test. The ergonomics of the gun you buy is the deciding factor.
Steve Swartz
: It seems easy enough to do for others but how did you come up with your 'time to switch gun' call?
leslieswartz-at-erinet.com.49264.49236
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LarryW
Mark: a question about the Tau 7 and Morini Short
I'm a new shooter who started a couple of months ago with a Pardini K60. It's way too front heavy for me. I'm considering going to either a Tau 7 or a Morini 162EI short. Obviously, the Tau 7 is less expensive and also a CO2 gun, which I am set up for, but I am willing to pay for the more enjoyable shooting experience. There is no opportunity available to me to try either gun. (I live in Tallahassee, FL.) Since you have shot both guns, how about comparing them for me -- especially the weight and balance. Should I jump to the Morini, or start with the Tau 7 and leave a little room for a future upgrade? Anyone else is welcome to chime in with info. Thanks.
lrw-at-bitplayer.net.49268.49251
lrw-at-bitplayer.net.49268.49251
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Seaton (Gripman)
a note plus Tau loading gate fix op from below:)
: It had to be when I started wondering about it. Somehow I could test this gun every way to Sunday (Tau 7) and despite the results my brain kept saying....what if...
: The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
seaton2-at-frontiernet.net.49295.49248
: The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
seaton2-at-frontiernet.net.49295.49248
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seaton (Gripman)
sorry about the empty message here it is :)
The prob is not with the loading gate itself , but the latching plunger in its rear. The dia of the bevel on the plunger is too large , preventing sufficient engagement. I removed the plunger (drift out the securing pin) and stoned the bevel of the plunger to allow it to engage its recieving hole more. Preserve the angle and radious of the bevel. It sounds difficult , but is simple when u see the part. I stoned the plunger slightly on both of my tau 7's and have NEVER had a pop open since! Replacing the loading gate(with plunger) or just the plunger , wont help as the prob is in the way its made a few thou too large
roland here is my email again that u wanted :)
seaton2@fromntiernet.net regards seaton:)
: : It had to be when I started wondering about it. Somehow I could test this gun every way to Sunday (Tau 7) and despite the results my brain kept saying....what if...
: : The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
.49296.49295
roland here is my email again that u wanted :)
seaton2@fromntiernet.net regards seaton:)
: : It had to be when I started wondering about it. Somehow I could test this gun every way to Sunday (Tau 7) and despite the results my brain kept saying....what if...
: : The loading port on the gun would occasionally blow open, This sent the o ring flying across the room. I had to stop worrying about that before I could be half-way decent.
.49296.49295
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Mark.
Re: Mark: a question about the Tau 7 and Morini Short
Well, Larry, you asked, so here goes! Please remember, these are my personal opinions and perceptions - your experience may be different than mine.
Let's look at each of the pistols mentioned - feature by feature.
TAU-7
Positives:
- inexpensive
- decent sights
- acceptable trigger
- now available in the match version with laminated grip, adjustable palmshelf and compensator
- weight system allows for user-set balance point and total weight
- Co2 powered
Negatives:
- Co2 load may not last a whole match, particularly if using bulk fills from the pony bottle
- no indication of C02 fill volume, and no indication when you're going to run out of gas
- seals seem to be prone to leakage (I say this because 3 out of 3 brand new ones purchased by friends have leaked within the first 6 months of ownership)
- trigger shoe is adjustable for length of pull only, not rotation on any of the axes, a la LP10
- it takes two distinct motions to make it ready to fire, closing/latching the breach block, and cocking the trigger mechanism
- breach block is prone to blowing open, resulting in loss of O-rings
- rear sight not adjustable for notch width/depth
- grip adjustment is achievable only via filling or grinding, and with the Co2 reservoir in the grip, it doesn't leave much room for grinding
- fit/finish is OK, definitely not high quality
Morini 162EI Short
Positives:
- lighter weight (still heavier than an LP10 by 35 grams, in the case of my pistols)
- balance point is almost a full inch aft of the balance point of the long version
- good sights, with the rear adjustable for width of the notch only
- good muzzle compensator
- air tank holds enough for a full match, plus (mine is good for something in excess of 160 shots, but it's shooting fairly low velocity)
- mechanical lockout feature which prevents use if cylinder air pressure is low
- excellent factory-installed grip with adjustable palm shelf, available in a variety of sizes
- bolt loading system makes it easy to load a pellet, but also easy to load 2 pellets since you can't easily see if one is already in the barrel
- undoubtedly the electronic trigger is the best trigger in the industry
- excellent fit/finish quality
Negatives:
- fairly expensive
- would require that you purchase an air pump or scuba tank
- a screwdriver is required to adjust the rear sight
- trigger is adjustable for length of pull only, no rotation around axes a la LP10
- grip is not adjustable for rake, cant, etc, except by grinding and filling
- electronics in the grip leave little room for grinding
- adjustable weight system is available only as an expensive option and only allows weight to be added forward of the breach
So, there you have a comparison of the two pistols, or at least as I see them. If you were looking for an opinion as to what to buy, I'd say that you would be disappointed to go from a K60 to a TAU. If you can afford it, the Morini would likely be a huge step up for you, and one I'm sure you wouldn't regret. If you were to buy a TAU you'd still be looking to upgrade later. You might be better off to just take the plunge and have top-notch equipment. It will give you confidence, and allow you to concentrate on making the shot, rather than on wondering if you're going to run out of gas.
Just my humble opinion. Either way, I hope you continue to enjoy shooting air pistol!
Mark.
.49298.49268
Let's look at each of the pistols mentioned - feature by feature.
TAU-7
Positives:
- inexpensive
- decent sights
- acceptable trigger
- now available in the match version with laminated grip, adjustable palmshelf and compensator
- weight system allows for user-set balance point and total weight
- Co2 powered
Negatives:
- Co2 load may not last a whole match, particularly if using bulk fills from the pony bottle
- no indication of C02 fill volume, and no indication when you're going to run out of gas
- seals seem to be prone to leakage (I say this because 3 out of 3 brand new ones purchased by friends have leaked within the first 6 months of ownership)
- trigger shoe is adjustable for length of pull only, not rotation on any of the axes, a la LP10
- it takes two distinct motions to make it ready to fire, closing/latching the breach block, and cocking the trigger mechanism
- breach block is prone to blowing open, resulting in loss of O-rings
- rear sight not adjustable for notch width/depth
- grip adjustment is achievable only via filling or grinding, and with the Co2 reservoir in the grip, it doesn't leave much room for grinding
- fit/finish is OK, definitely not high quality
Morini 162EI Short
Positives:
- lighter weight (still heavier than an LP10 by 35 grams, in the case of my pistols)
- balance point is almost a full inch aft of the balance point of the long version
- good sights, with the rear adjustable for width of the notch only
- good muzzle compensator
- air tank holds enough for a full match, plus (mine is good for something in excess of 160 shots, but it's shooting fairly low velocity)
- mechanical lockout feature which prevents use if cylinder air pressure is low
- excellent factory-installed grip with adjustable palm shelf, available in a variety of sizes
- bolt loading system makes it easy to load a pellet, but also easy to load 2 pellets since you can't easily see if one is already in the barrel
- undoubtedly the electronic trigger is the best trigger in the industry
- excellent fit/finish quality
Negatives:
- fairly expensive
- would require that you purchase an air pump or scuba tank
- a screwdriver is required to adjust the rear sight
- trigger is adjustable for length of pull only, no rotation around axes a la LP10
- grip is not adjustable for rake, cant, etc, except by grinding and filling
- electronics in the grip leave little room for grinding
- adjustable weight system is available only as an expensive option and only allows weight to be added forward of the breach
So, there you have a comparison of the two pistols, or at least as I see them. If you were looking for an opinion as to what to buy, I'd say that you would be disappointed to go from a K60 to a TAU. If you can afford it, the Morini would likely be a huge step up for you, and one I'm sure you wouldn't regret. If you were to buy a TAU you'd still be looking to upgrade later. You might be better off to just take the plunge and have top-notch equipment. It will give you confidence, and allow you to concentrate on making the shot, rather than on wondering if you're going to run out of gas.
Just my humble opinion. Either way, I hope you continue to enjoy shooting air pistol!
Mark.
.49298.49268
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Len
Mark one other comparison if you would
I notice you reference the LP10 as sort of a "benchmark", do you have one?
If so what are your thoughts on the LP10? over some of the guns you mentioned and maybe in comparison to other AP's that you might have.
I am in the process of considering a new pistol for my personal use and after the shot show I hope to try and start forming an opinion as to a potnetial new AP.
I am very familiar with the FWB family of pistols, so if you can compare your guns with any of the FWB's that are contemporary to the models in question, that would help me a great bit.
.49299.49298
If so what are your thoughts on the LP10? over some of the guns you mentioned and maybe in comparison to other AP's that you might have.
I am in the process of considering a new pistol for my personal use and after the shot show I hope to try and start forming an opinion as to a potnetial new AP.
I am very familiar with the FWB family of pistols, so if you can compare your guns with any of the FWB's that are contemporary to the models in question, that would help me a great bit.
.49299.49298
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LarryW
Thanks Mark -- great info!
I had a chance (thanks to Warren at Pilkguns) to try a Morini 162E (with fixed cylinder) just recently. I have to agree that the quality of the gun is excellent. But the weight was pretty much the same as the Pardini and there was no way to adjust the grip angles.
Your info has turned me off to the Tau 7. I think I'm just going to have to stick with the Pardini until I have the opportunity to handle and try some of the other guns.
Thanks for taking the time to send such great and comprehensive information.
lrw-at-bitplayer.net.49312.49298
Your info has turned me off to the Tau 7. I think I'm just going to have to stick with the Pardini until I have the opportunity to handle and try some of the other guns.
Thanks for taking the time to send such great and comprehensive information.
lrw-at-bitplayer.net.49312.49298
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Mark.
Re: Mark one other comparison if you would
: I notice you reference the LP10 as sort of a "benchmark", do you have one?
: If so what are your thoughts on the LP10? over some of the guns you mentioned and maybe in comparison to other AP's that you might have.
I currently own an LP1, LP10 and Morini 162EI Short. The references to the LP10 as a benchmark are based on its historical position as a consistant medal winner in competitions around the world. This shouldn't be taken as a slight to the other fine pistols in use by high performance atheletes. After all, most airguns will outshoot the shooter, and the medal gets hung on the neck of the shooter, not the pistol!
That having been said, I wish I had more experience with the FWB pistols to allow me to make more direct comparisons. I have only shot a P34 once, and it was the short version. Unfortunately it wasn't a positive experience because the grip didn't even come close to fitting my hand. This is no fault of the pistol itself - the owner of the pistol has a smaller hand than me. On the whole I'd say it was a pretty nice pistol, but I didn't seem to feel the same degree of recoil compensation which I feel with the LP10. Since my time spent with the pistol was limited this may be an unfair statement for me to make. In terms of balance, the pistol felt very light and less nose-heavy than the Steyr. Again, I wasn't able to draw a comparison between it and the Morini since I hadn't shot a Morini at that time.
I wish I could be of more help in answering your request - sorry!
Mark.
.49343.49299
: If so what are your thoughts on the LP10? over some of the guns you mentioned and maybe in comparison to other AP's that you might have.
I currently own an LP1, LP10 and Morini 162EI Short. The references to the LP10 as a benchmark are based on its historical position as a consistant medal winner in competitions around the world. This shouldn't be taken as a slight to the other fine pistols in use by high performance atheletes. After all, most airguns will outshoot the shooter, and the medal gets hung on the neck of the shooter, not the pistol!
That having been said, I wish I had more experience with the FWB pistols to allow me to make more direct comparisons. I have only shot a P34 once, and it was the short version. Unfortunately it wasn't a positive experience because the grip didn't even come close to fitting my hand. This is no fault of the pistol itself - the owner of the pistol has a smaller hand than me. On the whole I'd say it was a pretty nice pistol, but I didn't seem to feel the same degree of recoil compensation which I feel with the LP10. Since my time spent with the pistol was limited this may be an unfair statement for me to make. In terms of balance, the pistol felt very light and less nose-heavy than the Steyr. Again, I wasn't able to draw a comparison between it and the Morini since I hadn't shot a Morini at that time.
I wish I could be of more help in answering your request - sorry!
Mark.
.49343.49299