Well, the time has come, I hope, to purchase some equipment. And, just when you think you have it all figured out someone throws a flag on the play. I was leaning to CO2 but others are hesitant to go CO2 and instead keep it very simple with a SSP. I respect everyone's opinion so lets run the pros and cons.
888 PRO
No need to pump a 25 lb lever especially when prone. Not easy for small fry and breaks position.
300 shots per fill better than powerlet and easier to change and be on same fps on shot one, a challeng with powerlet.
Less desctraction with things to do. Just load and shoot.
Less fatigue on shooter than pump.
With the paintball craze, CO2 is everywhere!
888 CON
CO2 is temperature sentive for refilling purposes.
If you anticipate 250+ shots you will need to bring CO2 tank with you.
If you loan gun out they cannot refill w/o tank and adaptor.
Weighs .6 lbs more than 853
Seals tend to go on cyclider but easily and inexpensively replaced.
After reading the below link twice here is my conclustion. CO2 for a youth program will not be difficult. First, I should not have a problem getting a 20# tank donated by the rival soda companies here in Dallas. Once I buy an adaptor I am home free. So consider the gas free. Next, the temperature issue on a 2.5oz cylinder even in the wonderful weather of Texas, is not an issue unless you plan to shoot 250+ at a match. If I understand it correctly, the drill will be as follows. Put all the cylinders in the fridge Thurdsay night and leave the 20# tank outside in the warm ambient temperatures of say 80F to get the warm doner bottle and cool receiving cylinder. Fill all cylinders to 2.5 oz Friday night and forget it. Once the gas/liquid is in the cylinder the ambient temperature becomes mute. The genie is in the bottle and will come out at the same rate over and over if it is 40F or 90F correct? Not all CO2 shooting for us will be indoors so the filled guns will have to work in varying teperatures. If I have this all wrong pls let me know.
The solution, PCP. But that is not in the budget. And I want to standardize on one type and not mix and match. If we go CO2 it will be my job to ensure we manage it right and I get others trained so it is not a mystery to the rest of the parent volunteers.
Thanks for your thoughtful input.
durantjud-at-yahoo.com.48821.0
888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Jay V
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
: Well, the time has come, I hope, to purchase some equipment. And, just when you think you have it all figured out someone throws a flag on the play. I was leaning to CO2 but others are hesitant to go CO2 and instead keep it very simple with a SSP. I respect everyone's opinion so lets run the pros and cons.
: 888 PRO
: No need to pump a 25 lb lever especially when prone. Not easy for small fry and breaks position.
: 300 shots per fill better than powerlet and easier to change and be on same fps on shot one, a challeng with powerlet.
: Less desctraction with things to do. Just load and shoot.
: Less fatigue on shooter than pump.
: With the paintball craze, CO2 is everywhere!
: 888 CON
: CO2 is temperature sentive for refilling purposes.
: If you anticipate 250+ shots you will need to bring CO2 tank with you.
: If you loan gun out they cannot refill w/o tank and adaptor.
: Weighs .6 lbs more than 853
: Seals tend to go on cyclider but easily and inexpensively replaced.
The extra work with CO2 is worth it. Breaking position each shot to cock the rifle is a real pain in 3P, especially for a beginner. 250+ shots is a lot. You can fill it at room-temp, it just won't be a complete fill. If you have an extra 888 CO2 cylinder on hand you are covered for running out.
Put the empty cylinder in the freezer for 10 min and fill from a room-temp tank. Weight it to confirm that you have a full fill and have not over-filled it. The seals are pretty good, but grow like crazy when CO2 hits them. Keep some on hand and lube it when installing the cylinder. Don't tighten the cylinder very tight or you can crack the receiver! Don't ask...
I don't think temp is a real problem. They shoot very well in all conditions for us.
Jay Vergenz
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.48834.48821
: 888 PRO
: No need to pump a 25 lb lever especially when prone. Not easy for small fry and breaks position.
: 300 shots per fill better than powerlet and easier to change and be on same fps on shot one, a challeng with powerlet.
: Less desctraction with things to do. Just load and shoot.
: Less fatigue on shooter than pump.
: With the paintball craze, CO2 is everywhere!
: 888 CON
: CO2 is temperature sentive for refilling purposes.
: If you anticipate 250+ shots you will need to bring CO2 tank with you.
: If you loan gun out they cannot refill w/o tank and adaptor.
: Weighs .6 lbs more than 853
: Seals tend to go on cyclider but easily and inexpensively replaced.
The extra work with CO2 is worth it. Breaking position each shot to cock the rifle is a real pain in 3P, especially for a beginner. 250+ shots is a lot. You can fill it at room-temp, it just won't be a complete fill. If you have an extra 888 CO2 cylinder on hand you are covered for running out.
Put the empty cylinder in the freezer for 10 min and fill from a room-temp tank. Weight it to confirm that you have a full fill and have not over-filled it. The seals are pretty good, but grow like crazy when CO2 hits them. Keep some on hand and lube it when installing the cylinder. Don't tighten the cylinder very tight or you can crack the receiver! Don't ask...
I don't think temp is a real problem. They shoot very well in all conditions for us.
Jay Vergenz
www.aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.48834.48821
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Jim Morris
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Everything Jay says is right. I'll add a couple of recent lessons . . .
1. When going to a match in Kalamazoo and it is a balmy minus 5, store your guns in the passenger compartment, not the trunk!! Our first targets were terrible.
2. Buy the fill adapter from Daisy - it is very good and has a nice bleeder valve. Then take it to a local welding supply store - they will do your CO2 tank very cheaply.
3. If you club is a non-profit organization, apply for an NRA Foundation grant.
4. Heed what Jay said about not overtightening the CO2 tank or he will have to tell you about the popsicle stick trick ;0)
Jim in Michigan
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.48850.48834
1. When going to a match in Kalamazoo and it is a balmy minus 5, store your guns in the passenger compartment, not the trunk!! Our first targets were terrible.
2. Buy the fill adapter from Daisy - it is very good and has a nice bleeder valve. Then take it to a local welding supply store - they will do your CO2 tank very cheaply.
3. If you club is a non-profit organization, apply for an NRA Foundation grant.
4. Heed what Jay said about not overtightening the CO2 tank or he will have to tell you about the popsicle stick trick ;0)
Jim in Michigan
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.48850.48834
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durant7
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Thanks guys. It seems with some education and experience one can figure it out. Just don't become the only parent who has all the experience. I just hope I can find a adaptor somewhere or else CMP will have to sell us one. Much to learn. I'm sure I'll be back asking question on how these guns work. d7
durantjud-at-yahoo.com.48876.48850
durantjud-at-yahoo.com.48876.48850
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Len
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
The daisy one is good, and fairly cheap.
One more thing, don't leave your bulk tank in the car. A guy did that at 70 or so degress West Point...it sort of messed up his car. I think he was at 80% fill on a 20# tank...heat in the car got up over 90 and the disk ruptures and blew off the contents inside the car.
.48877.48876
One more thing, don't leave your bulk tank in the car. A guy did that at 70 or so degress West Point...it sort of messed up his car. I think he was at 80% fill on a 20# tank...heat in the car got up over 90 and the disk ruptures and blew off the contents inside the car.
.48877.48876
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Jim Morris
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Call Daisy . . .
If you haven't yet, call Daisy shooting programs at: 8001-643-3458
Tell them you are running a youth shooting program and ask for an Avanti catalog/price list.
Their prices and service are great.
Jim
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.48901.48876
If you haven't yet, call Daisy shooting programs at: 8001-643-3458
Tell them you are running a youth shooting program and ask for an Avanti catalog/price list.
Their prices and service are great.
Jim
jmorris_3-at-yahoo.com.48901.48876
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Mike Schroeder
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
: Well, the time has come, I hope, to purchase some equipment.....
Hi
Well, this is something I actually have experience with. We (Sedgwick County 4-H) have 4-5 888's and 4-5 853's. Since the initial classes are almost always kids under 13, the 853's are too hard to pump. I also just finished coach class, (no card yet) and learned the breaking position is a bad thing, so 888s are better for the more advanced shooters too.
One interesting thing I've noticed that really makes me mad, is that if I have a new class with 8 year olds to 16 year olds, all of the kids over the age of 12 leave immediately "because this is a stupid little kid's deal".
I've explained to the kids, that it's an individual sport, that you'll shoot better that the little kids, etc. Doesn't work. Girls don't seem to care much, but boys over 13 won't take an Air rifle 4-H class if there are any kids under 12 there too.
How can I handle this one?
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48907.48821
Hi
Well, this is something I actually have experience with. We (Sedgwick County 4-H) have 4-5 888's and 4-5 853's. Since the initial classes are almost always kids under 13, the 853's are too hard to pump. I also just finished coach class, (no card yet) and learned the breaking position is a bad thing, so 888s are better for the more advanced shooters too.
One interesting thing I've noticed that really makes me mad, is that if I have a new class with 8 year olds to 16 year olds, all of the kids over the age of 12 leave immediately "because this is a stupid little kid's deal".
I've explained to the kids, that it's an individual sport, that you'll shoot better that the little kids, etc. Doesn't work. Girls don't seem to care much, but boys over 13 won't take an Air rifle 4-H class if there are any kids under 12 there too.
How can I handle this one?
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48907.48821
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pdeal
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Mike: Interesting observation and one that I have made too. My solution has been to recruit kids in the 9-11 year old range. Kids this age seem to love it. We have some older kids (13-16) shooting precision so the little ones see the big guys shooting those cool looking feinwerkbau's and anschutz's and see something to aspire to. I also think that participating in either NRA or USA shooting matches is important for keeping kids interested. If there are not matches in your are then run some. Several of our kids just participated in the Jr. olympics. I had 3 10 year olds participate. They have a heck of a time hitting the black but they had a good time.
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.48910.48907
pdeal-at-mylanlabs.com.48910.48907
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Len
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Train the older kids to help coach the younger ones. Sort of like a big brother or sister type of thing.
We have kids ranging from 10 to 17 in our group.
Most of the time we try and "pair" them, so that they can help each other. Even if you sell it to the big kids that you need more coaches and they are the mentor, you would be surpirsed how much both learn from each other. I have several examples that come to mind and I can share them if you like.
We also extend this to four specific classes a year where the kids teach their parents and their coaches about gun safety and shooting (stance, sight alignment, sight picture...so on and so forth)
Teaching seems to help them solidify skills and knowledge and makes them feel more part of things.
.48911.48907
We have kids ranging from 10 to 17 in our group.
Most of the time we try and "pair" them, so that they can help each other. Even if you sell it to the big kids that you need more coaches and they are the mentor, you would be surpirsed how much both learn from each other. I have several examples that come to mind and I can share them if you like.
We also extend this to four specific classes a year where the kids teach their parents and their coaches about gun safety and shooting (stance, sight alignment, sight picture...so on and so forth)
Teaching seems to help them solidify skills and knowledge and makes them feel more part of things.
.48911.48907
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Jay V
Re: youth program challenges
:(snip) One interesting thing I've noticed that really makes me mad, is that if I have a new class with 8 year olds to 16 year olds, all of the kids over the age of 12 leave immediately "because this is a stupid little kid's deal".
To be honest, I haven't seen that reaction before. Our group ranges from 11 to 18. I have seen them get discouraged quickly, and make a lot of "I really stink!" comments - which we immediately take care of. Some of them may not be that interested in the first place, and are just looking for a reason to leave. Not every student can stick with it through the early stages if they feel they are not improving as fast as the rest of the group. I have a lot of respect for the student that struggles over and over to advance, but is determined enough to be at every training session and fire every match - those are our champions in the making.
Having the more experienced students coach the younger ones works for us - as long as they (older students) don't have an attitude. We have had a modest amount of success with some of our shooters, and need to be careful that some of the newer ones don't get discouraged because they can't shoot as well as the more experienced, yet sometimes younger, students.
If you feel it is really effecting your program, maybe run 2 classes - "younger" and "older" students.
Jay Vergenz
IL
aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.48918.48907
To be honest, I haven't seen that reaction before. Our group ranges from 11 to 18. I have seen them get discouraged quickly, and make a lot of "I really stink!" comments - which we immediately take care of. Some of them may not be that interested in the first place, and are just looking for a reason to leave. Not every student can stick with it through the early stages if they feel they are not improving as fast as the rest of the group. I have a lot of respect for the student that struggles over and over to advance, but is determined enough to be at every training session and fire every match - those are our champions in the making.
Having the more experienced students coach the younger ones works for us - as long as they (older students) don't have an attitude. We have had a modest amount of success with some of our shooters, and need to be careful that some of the newer ones don't get discouraged because they can't shoot as well as the more experienced, yet sometimes younger, students.
If you feel it is really effecting your program, maybe run 2 classes - "younger" and "older" students.
Jay Vergenz
IL
aiac-airguns.org
jverg-at-att.net.48918.48907
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Mike Schroeder
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
: Train the older kids to help coach the younger ones. Sort of like a big brother or sister type of thing.
Maybe I need to explain the problem a little more. The leaving occurs in not showing up after the first class, (CLASS not club). The old ones who have 3 years of experience aren't a problem, and neither are the ones who are in a class of older kids. The problem is that we have a 9 week (18 hour) class, and when the older kids SEE "little kids" in the SAME CLASS with them, they quit immediately. One group of 3 14 year old boys tried to get Mom to take them home before the first class started, She didn't, but they never came back either. The only one we haven't had a problem with is a boy who's friend in already a coach.
?????
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48924.48911
Maybe I need to explain the problem a little more. The leaving occurs in not showing up after the first class, (CLASS not club). The old ones who have 3 years of experience aren't a problem, and neither are the ones who are in a class of older kids. The problem is that we have a 9 week (18 hour) class, and when the older kids SEE "little kids" in the SAME CLASS with them, they quit immediately. One group of 3 14 year old boys tried to get Mom to take them home before the first class started, She didn't, but they never came back either. The only one we haven't had a problem with is a boy who's friend in already a coach.
?????
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48924.48911
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Len
That is interesting
I have not really experienced that problem where they just don't show up because of the age of other shooters.
When we run our classes in an overlapping fashion. We started 15 kids (two dropped out due to other issues) and are getting ready for the next class 11 kids.
In doing so, all the kids meet in the ready room, the new kids go upstairs for most of their two hours in the first weeks to learn safety, positions etc. The kids already in the program are doing their practice and qualification/training. There is a STRONG motivation for the new kids to learn because they are not shooting yet. They have to pass mini tests to get onto the firing line (safety, safety, safety, rifle parts, basic markmenship concepts, and did I say safety?)
Age and/or sex has never really been an issue...because they kids are just happy to shoot.
Maybe you could try making "junior" and "senior" teams, split the coaches over the two groups and train them seperately? Maybe have your younger shooters that have been in the program give a demonstration of shooting? Stress that experience and skill, not age makes the shooter.
Gee that's a tough one...most of our kids don't care about anything really outside of the aspects of shooting.
.48928.48924
When we run our classes in an overlapping fashion. We started 15 kids (two dropped out due to other issues) and are getting ready for the next class 11 kids.
In doing so, all the kids meet in the ready room, the new kids go upstairs for most of their two hours in the first weeks to learn safety, positions etc. The kids already in the program are doing their practice and qualification/training. There is a STRONG motivation for the new kids to learn because they are not shooting yet. They have to pass mini tests to get onto the firing line (safety, safety, safety, rifle parts, basic markmenship concepts, and did I say safety?)
Age and/or sex has never really been an issue...because they kids are just happy to shoot.
Maybe you could try making "junior" and "senior" teams, split the coaches over the two groups and train them seperately? Maybe have your younger shooters that have been in the program give a demonstration of shooting? Stress that experience and skill, not age makes the shooter.
Gee that's a tough one...most of our kids don't care about anything really outside of the aspects of shooting.
.48928.48924
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P. Lambertz
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
: One interesting thing I've noticed that really makes me mad, is that if I have a new class with 8 year olds to 16 year olds, all of the kids over the age of 12 leave immediately "because this is a stupid little kid's deal".
: I've explained to the kids, that it's an individual sport, that you'll shoot better that the little kids, etc. Doesn't work. Girls don't seem to care much, but boys over 13 won't take an Air rifle 4-H class if there are any kids under 12 there too.
: How can I handle this one?
: Mike
: Wichita KS
It seems that if they have such an attitude at the very beginning, they really don't want to target shoot anyway. I see it as self-weeding. Maybe they are expecting something real easy where they could try to "show-off" to the others, and use the age excuse to back out when they find that younger kids could actually do better than them.
Just for the heck of it, experiment by splitting up into age groups. Then see if the same type of kid eventually drops out anyway.
Wonder if an "ice-breaker" or some fun plinking right away would allow all ages to get to know each other a little better & improve relations. The older kids might not look down on the little ones if they all realized how much they enjoy shooting - which is presumably why they are there.
.48967.48907
: I've explained to the kids, that it's an individual sport, that you'll shoot better that the little kids, etc. Doesn't work. Girls don't seem to care much, but boys over 13 won't take an Air rifle 4-H class if there are any kids under 12 there too.
: How can I handle this one?
: Mike
: Wichita KS
It seems that if they have such an attitude at the very beginning, they really don't want to target shoot anyway. I see it as self-weeding. Maybe they are expecting something real easy where they could try to "show-off" to the others, and use the age excuse to back out when they find that younger kids could actually do better than them.
Just for the heck of it, experiment by splitting up into age groups. Then see if the same type of kid eventually drops out anyway.
Wonder if an "ice-breaker" or some fun plinking right away would allow all ages to get to know each other a little better & improve relations. The older kids might not look down on the little ones if they all realized how much they enjoy shooting - which is presumably why they are there.
.48967.48907
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durant7
Re: 888 vs 853 for start up youth program
Thanks guys. This has been useful and hopefully this is a good forum to share ideas in getting youth interested and developed in our sport! Thanks again! I think I will go with the 888!!
durantjud-at-yahoo.com.49027.48877
durantjud-at-yahoo.com.49027.48877