"Sensive" Trigger Blades for Air Pistol?

[Gwhite]

I'm almost 70 years old, and I've been having a lot of trouble with my trigger squeeze in recent years. I have a hard time feeling that I'm increasing the pressure on the trigger.

I have spent a good bit of my life messing with mechanical things, and use my trigger finger for grabbing, twisting & turning things. A while back, I had a lengthy battle with an FWB 65 breech seal that left my finger tip numb for over a week. It occurred to me that all that wear & tear may have reduced the sensitivity of my trigger finger. It definitely feels a bit "dead" compared to my other finger tips.

I'm currently shooting a Steyr, with wide flat silver trigger blade. It feels nice to just park your finger on, but I think that may be counterproductive. It spreads the force out, and I think it makes the "pressure sensitivity" problem even worse. There are a number of "sensiv" trigger blades, but I think are mostly designed for rifle shooters. There are several variations, but they have a small number of sharp points that I'm guessing would dig into the finger tip with increasing pressure, (hopefully) enhancing the feel of the increased pressure.

They vary from slightly aggressive checkering, to a single sharp point:

The second & third one are actually the same trigger, but it's reversible: https://shop.ahg-anschuetz.de/en/match- ... oint?c=112 I'd try that one, but I am concerned that it may limit how far to the rear you can place the blade. My guess is that the more aggressive ones are meant for rifle, where the trigger force will be a lot lower. I don't want to tenderize my finger tip too badly over the course of a match...

I know a few people have asked about these in the past, but I'd like to hear if anyone has any first hand experience with them. I may 3D print a few options & see if it makes any difference. I made an extra short trigger blade for my wife's MG2 .22, and it fits the Steyr down rod, so I have a good starting point.

Thanks!

[brent375hh]

The first one looks like it would have to interfere with your finger, if you were right handed, unless you swapped it around. The second and fourth looks like you could grind off the rear projection for more rear clearance. I can't think that more mass would be helpful when the trigger breaks, then hits the over travel stop. A thinner lightweight plastic plastic blade, like a FWB 300, might be a good solution to try? Foroughi's trigger looks like it might be a FWB trigger blade on his mechanical Steyr.

I am currently trying to slowly add more weight to the first stage, and decreasing the second stage. That seems to be helping, at least until I get to the point that I can't reliably stop it at the second stage. Let us know how your project goes.

[-TT-]

I don't think those button-type triggers are a good choice for AP, it seems as if you would need to put the center to exactly the right spot on your fingertip every time, and if you have a tactile sensitivity issue, that would make it harder, not easier, to do so. That said, I haven't tried them myself. I do have a similar issue, especially when I've been working on some outdoor project and a callus gets going.

For me, I've had a good result with using just a strip of grip tape on the trigger surface itself. I cut it in a narrow rectangle, with the top edge reaching just above where I want to place my finger. The tape is textured and a bit grippy, so it's easy to find the right spot by feeling for the top edge of the tape, and setting most of my fingertip on the grippy part which will be just below it. The surface keeps things stable so the contact point doesn't creep.

I also considered putting a single bead of epoxy on the surface of the tape, as a kind of braille point. But I haven't felt the need to try that.

Just some ideas.

[toddinjax]

I’m wondering (because I don’t know) if just a higher trigger weight might provide more tactile info for you to work with? Cheap and easy to test at least.

[Green_Canoe]

For a while I was using a rubber O-ring around the trigger in the weight hanging groove of my LP10 to get a repeatable finger position. After a while I abandoned it but it was a cheap way to get something similar to what you are talking about

[McMadCow]

Keep in mind that those button style trigger shoes will be nearly impossible to pass tech if you're planning on doing any sort of competing. Stewards measure your trigger weight by lifting the gun from the trigger shoe with a 500g weight on a hook. That hook would have nowhere to go on some of those.

I swapped out my own factory shoe a while back and installed an Anschutz model with an infinite adjustable setup. It took a little modification to get it to work on my Walther LP500, but it's great once I got it fitted.

[Gwhite]

I've got three triggers set up for 3D printing so far. The first is roughly equivalent to the Steyr factory trigger. The second has fairly fine checkering, and the 3rd is a bit coarser. I'm printing the coarse one overnight, and should have photos of the results sometime Wednesday. The fine checkering doesn't feel that different from the smooth ribs of the factory trigger. I'm hoping the coarser checkering will produce a much more pronounced increase in sensitivity. Whether I will want to go coarser still may wait until I do some test firing.

[brent375hh]

Do any of your models perhaps have a narrower trigger with less curvature?

[Gwhite]

I can design & print pretty much anything I can imagine. The hard part is finding the time to do the CAD design and fit it into the steady stream of print jobs. The resolution of the printer does introduce some limitations to fine details, like how sharp I can make the checkering on the trigger faces. Here are the three triggers I made yesterday:

The layers from the printing process make them a bit hard to see, but the two on the right have pyramids of different sizes on the front.

Here are the two "sensive" designs:

And here is the one I'm going to test for a bit, with the mounting hardware:

I can definitely feel the bumps. Whether that translates into better trigger control remains to be seen.

I may not be able to buy points, but maybe I can print a few...

[brent375hh]

I can design & print pretty much anything I can imagine. The hard part is finding the time to do the CAD design and fit it into the steady stream of print jobs. The resolution of the printer does introduce some limitations to fine details, like how sharp I can make the checkering on the trigger faces. Here are the three triggers I made yesterday:

Steyr 3D Printed Triggers.jpg

The layers from the printing process make them a bit hard to see, but the two on the right have pyramids of different sizes on the front.

Here are the two "sensive" designs:

Steyr 3D Printed Sensive Triggers.jpg

And here is the one I'm going to test for a bit, with the mounting hardware:

Steyr 3D Printed Coarse Sensive Trigger.jpg

I can definitely feel the bumps. Whether that translates into better trigger control remains to be seen.

I may not be able to buy points, but maybe I can print a few...

I like the one on the top left. If you go commercial, please let me know.

[Gwhite]

That's basically a copy of the MatchGun MG2 Trigger modified to fit the Steyr mount. It has the same grooved structure as the factory Steyr trigger, but it's a bit narrower. The grooves are small & smooth enough that is has no textural feel at all to my battered trigger finger.

I can make the CAD files available at some point, but I have WAY too many projects on deck to mess with commercializing this stuff.

I tried the coarsest one for 10 shots, and I think it will help, but it's no miracle cure. The checkering isn't as sharp as I'd like, and I think a slightly coarser pattern may be better. I may have to sharpen the checkering with files to get the full effect. I printed a coarser one last night, but haven't had a chance to try it.

[BobGee]

Gwhite, I’m of a similar age to you. I bought and tried the two Tec-HRO trigger blades shown below on my FWB P44 a few years back (https://tec-hro.de/schiesssport/en/sear ... gger+blade). I could not get on with the “touch-point” trigger (lower picture) - it was too much of a point for me but might solve your problem. The “touch-soft” (upper picture) was better and easier to set up to get a constant finger placement with plenty of feel, plus it would be easy to file a more pronounced V-notch for trigger weight testing. In the end, I went back to the FWB blade. Both blades shown require a bit of space to install.

I have also tried the grit paper that -TT- suggested but again went back to the original. I fortunately don’t have your numb finger problem.

B7465836-93F9-46ED-92C1-3855A3760E91.jpeg (16.53 KiB) Viewed 135056 times

B2D98690-DB97-47E3-B75C-4037EF9EF859.jpeg (15.3 KiB) Viewed 135056 times

Good luck with your print projects.

Bob

[Gwhite]

Time for an update: It's difficult to print really sharp points, but by making the "checkering" coarse enough, you can still get a "pointy" feel to the trigger. I haven't tried sharpening the points yet. I worked with three different designs:

The first one (which was the coarsest of the ones I tried initially) was still way too fine, and I couldn't really feel any difference. The middle one was a bit better, but it still didn't really enhance the feel of the trigger. I've currently got the coarsest one installed, and that definitely provides some additional feel.

I haven't had a chance to practice with it very much, but I think I will stick with this version for a while. After several days off due to holiday festivities, I finally picked up the pistol last night, and shot this right off the bat:

I'm sure there was a bit of luck involved, but I haven't shot a target like that in years. Now I just need to build my stamina back up & get my shot process ingrained using the new trigger.

I need to double check that I have one of the grooves centered for trigger weighing, but I think the latest one will do the trick, even without sharpening.

[seamaster]

Very nice grouping.

Does it mean continuous, smooth, sensitive trigger trump front sighting? You can front sight much better than you assume, so whatever residual attention you have, is better spent on that sensitive , continuously pulling trigger?

[dam8]

I took a big risk and Drexel cut ( with a tungsten mini wheel) cross hatch, then filed points. Luckily it came out nice. The feel is great

[Gwhite]

The long term goal is to make a good (relatively quick) trigger pull automatic, so I can concentrate on my sight alignment.

Combined with more wobble than I used to have, the lack of feeling in my finger tip has lead to increasing problems with "chicken finger". Back when I was younger & more stable, I would hesitate if I saw the pistol bouncing around the way it does all the time now. I could then finish the shot when it settled down, or abort. Now when I hesitate, my finger locks up. I think I'm pulling the trigger, but what I'm actually doing is setting up an argument between the flexor and extensor muscles. The apparent trigger pull goes through the roof, and without the additional feedback of the actual pressure on the trigger from my finger tip, I hold too long or spend all my time aborting. The "sensive" trigger now allows me to feel the trigger pressure independent of what my muscles say is going on.

My new "shot-process-for-geezers" has several aspects:

1) Start with the sights just above the black, and get them all lined up & in sharp focus.

2) Drop smoothly (and more quickly than I used to) into my hold, increasing pressure as I lower the pistol

3) Increase pressure on the trigger as quickly as possible without disturbing the sight alignment so the shot breaks within a second or so of settling.

With luck, the shot will break before either my eyes get tired, or the shakes kick in.

WHEN I can execute that properly, my shots easily stay in the 9 ring. At my age, that's plenty good enough. The problem is training enough to make proper execution more than a random event.

IF you get a really smooth release, you would be amazed at how well you can shoot, despite some misalignment of the sights. At least for a few seconds, my wobble is much smaller than the amount I can easily disturb the sights with poor triggering.

This is where an electronic trainer comes in useful. It will show you what your hold is capable of, and for how long. If you aren't shooting within your hold, it's due to poor triggering.

If you just hang your pistol out at arms length, for most shooters, the end of the barrel will wobble a lot less than a 5 mm radius (10 mm diameter). IF you keep your sights perfectly aligned, all your shots should fall within a circle that big on the target like they were fired down a tube. It's the angular error caused by sight misalignment that opens that up into a funnel shape instead of a tube.

Sight alignment is critical, but it's a waste of time if your triggering introduces more angular disturbance than your natural hold/aiming ability.

You have to master both aspects to get really good scores. If you can focus on your front sight properly, I'd guess the vast majority of shots outside the 8 ring are due to triggering errors. For old timers, the biggest triggering error I see (and have experienced) is holding too long/ and/or forcing the shot off. Waiting for the pistol to stop flopping around is a waste of time. You need to get the shot off before the wobbles kick in, and that quiet period gets shorter & shorter... A big part of the battle is mastering a smooth FAST shot release without forcing the shot off.

Time to do more dry firing...

[dam8]

Thanks Doug
That is wicked helpful ( said with a Boston accent) I have recently changed my shot plan. Now it looks like I’ll change it some more!
Thanks for your post

[Gwhite]

I have had very little time to dry fire, but I've been working on my triggering when I can. I finally couldn't stand dry firing any more, and fired a 10-shot target last night.

The "8" was from holding too long & anticipation from forcing the shot off.

It may look nice, but I need to dry fire a LOT more to get a proper squeeze even vaguely automatic. This target took 15 minutes to shoot, with at least 6 or 8 aborts. I held too long on almost every shot. There is no way I could do 60 shots in a row (of any quality) with that much effort.

The one thing I noticed is that both of this & the previous target were fired fairly late in the evening. I think when it's near the end of the day, I'm too tired to shake as much as I do in the morning or afternoon.

Lots to work on, but I do think the new trigger blade helps. The one downside is that the tip of my finger looked like a waffle by the time I finished the target.

[Steevyg]

Looks like a great score to me - well done.

[slevane]

I have some permanent nerve damage in my trigger finger and I find this topic interesting. I find myself occasionally doing the opposite of your problem, I trigger without ever feeling the trigger, almost always a 7 or 8 at 12 o'clock. I have been thinking about a narrow trigger with either a ridge or points to increase the perceived pressure. Have you thought about the same? Maybe remove 1/3 of the width from the trigger?

Scott