How are you filling your cylinders?

[Timberwerks]

The compressor arrived today, very well packed and the quality, fit & finish are very good! I know it's a Chinese made unit so to see a high attention to detail is welcome. Manual is very clear & well written and spare seals and rings are included. So far very pleased, I'll empty a few cylinders and give it a go over the next day or two and report back.

[Timberwerks]

The compressor works fantastic! It's fairly quiet and fills a cylinder from 0 to 200 bar in about 3 minutes. The only thing I wish was different is that I didn't need to purge the cylinder down to 0 before the compressor will actually pump, there can't be any pressure in the line in order for the compressor to start filling. I don't own any rifles but I assume when the line is connected via the quick connect to the rifle cylinder they are one way valves and the air from those cylinders doesn't back flow into the compressor line. My Hill pump is the same way, if I open the pressure release with the cylinder screwed on all the air in the cylinder purges out.

Anyway, not a big issue. However is there a one way valve/fitting that I can add to the line before the guns fill adapter?

[Chicken-Farmer]

You should just have to wait until the line pressure equalizes to the tank pressure. After the line pressure exceeds the tank pressure the valve on your tank will open and begin to fill. After your fill you will need to purge the line pressure to disconnect from the tank

[Gwhite]

You should just have to wait until the line pressure equalizes to the tank pressure. After the line pressure exceeds the tank pressure the valve on your tank will open and begin to fill. After your fill you will need to purge the line pressure to disconnect from the tank

This depends on the brand of pistol you shoot. Morinis have a valve in the cylinder that opens when the fill pressure exceeds the internal cylinder pressure. Steyr and Hammerli fill adapters open the cylinder valves mechanically, and must be unscrewed slightly before you can bleed them. I assume this also means that you have to attach them to this type of compressor after it has started.

[Chicken-Farmer]

I fill both Steyr, Feinwekbau and several other PCP tanks personally. The steyr tanks require me to slightly (maybe a 1/4 turn) unscrew the tank after filling to bleed off line pressure to close the valve. Otherwise the entire tank bleeds out when pressure is released from the compressor hose. The act of screwing the bottle onto the fill adapter "opens" the tank valve and my fill hose equalizes to the current tank pressure.

My Feinwerkbau tanks have an internal tank valve. I can bleed the pressure off my compressor without depleting the tank pressure. Likewise, when I screw my FWB tanks onto my fill adapter nothing happens until my compressor builds up enough pressure to open the tank valve. It usually takes a second or two.

Regardless of tank valve style, you should never try to screw a tank onto the fill probe with air already flowing. That is a recipe for disaster and stripped threads!

[wasatch]

Another source for 4500psi fills for SCBA tanks is fire stations.

They too appreciate beer. Cookies in Utah.

[spektr]

A 200 bar tank will be nearly useless once it gets down to around 120 bar, so all they really need to do is top it off. That goes a lot quicker than filling from scratch.

I don't know if this is a national, state or dive shop requirement, but the place we use requires an annual visual inspection in addition to the usual 5 year hydrotesting. That may take a few days, and requires re-filling from zero afterward.

In the US, The Annual Visual Inspection and 5 year Hydro Test are DOT regulations for Pressure Vessels. That same Horrible set of laws that End Of Lifed all non inspect-able Pressure Vessels under 1/2 liter in volume, 10 years from the Quarter of their manufacture and following the International PV regulations that the DOT is our signatory of.... They May or may not be unsafe then and are most probably fine, but lacking a means of inspection you cant prove it either way. So they are condemned by rule at this ten years and may not be serviced in commerce. This is an International Consensus Standard so all signatories agreed on its contents. Intrestingly enough, There is no prohibition to an owner refilling them on his own since DOT regs cover tanks in commerce, so you can do that, but for all intents and purposes, they are done because of 3rd party liability issues... Accusing ISSF of condemning the tanks as being a stupid rule is merely the correct application of international law......

As far as fill times go, my dive shop puts my tanks in a water bath and fills from zero in about 10 minutes. Topping off from 100 bar is really quick and done dry since the tank heating effect is so much less

[spektr]

Just make life easy on yourself.

Go into the dive shop, tell them what you're doing, leave a six-pak.

(I know you think I'm kidding.)

My dive shop guys LOVE Taco Bell.......

[SlartyBartFast]

That same Horrible set of laws that End Of Lifed all non inspect-able Pressure Vessels under 1/2 liter in volume, 10 years from the Quarter of their manufacture and following the International PV regulations that the DOT is our signatory of....

People DIED or suffered serious injury to require those rules to be enacted.

Properly cared for, pressure cylinders are a very minimal risk. But it's wrongheaded to dismiss the explosive danger of the energy they contain. And if you look up data sheets from cylinder manufacturers many indicate service life limits.

Blame AIRGUN MANUFACTURERS for not making or using cylinders that don't either meet the technical requirements to be exempt or are built to be inspectable and testable.

[spektr]

Sorry you missed the sarcasm ....... I complete agree with you The reply was aimed at MR White who has repeatedly bashed the laws as being stupid, unnecessary and under the impression that the 10year tank time limit was the creation of the ISSF ......

My non sarcastic position is fairly well known to most. I have gone into great detail explaining the International Pressure Vessel laws and the specifics of HOW the connection to the DOT regs works. I have noted the PED and the associated annexes involved with small noninspectable cylinders. The Airgun Manufacturers are doing things correctly in most cases. So....... Since we are in agreement you can probably stop here, but I did copy my last long winded post on the subject below....

Enjoy the day
Scott
,



All of your arguments lack merit.

USAS identified a condition in tbeir rule book where US law was not being followed. In the US, it is illegal to knowingly repressurize a pressure vessel requiring inspection or retirement. USAS found tbey were not in compliance at their contests as out of date tanks were being used. USAS publisbed a memo and a rule change highlighting this problem as it was a compulsary and USAS needed to comply with it. So far so good. At many venues, the organizers provide filling services, USAS rigbtfully changed the rules for inspection so out of date tanks werent filled. All good so far.

Your assertion that USAS should have merely said "comply with the existing law when refilling tanks" while knowing that a problem with the publics awareness of the law existed is flawed. The fact is, that until I quoted chapter and verse on the specific law having the compliance issues, even you weren't up to speed as your pointedly sarcastic WHAT INTERNATIONAL LAW shows.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that the USAS wants us to comply with the law and reminds us of what it is..... The law is there to be followed, It is compulsary, not a suggestion. You may disagree with why it exists and say it lacks logic, BUT it is tbe law and must be followed. The International PV regulatory body says we get there 10 years on an air tank. They all do that stuff for a living, and I am NOT in a position, having read tbe entire law and all the annexes attached to it, to say it is poorly written or misclassifys our PVs. Lastly, in tbe Aerospace Industry, my professional home for my entire career, we have a saying that covers your actions completely..... Perform to tbe requirements or cause tbe requirements to be officially changed....... Those are great parting words so I'll leave it tbere.....

[SlartyBartFast]

Sorry you missed the sarcasm ....... I complete agree with you

My apologies. Have dealt with too many who thought the safety regulations surrounding pressure vessels were pointless.

[Gwhite]

I never said the safety regulations were pointless. My problem is that many cylinder manufacturers certified them for 20 years before the bureaucrats came along and magically made them unsafe after 10. THAT is what is stupid. If the regulations said that cylinders were safe for as long as the manufacturer said they were, I wouldn't have a gripe.

Also, as the ISSF rules currently stand, it doesn't matter if the manufacturers design the cylinders to be re-certified. The rules say 10 years from date of manufacturer. Period.

[SlartyBartFast]

My problem is that many cylinder manufacturers certified them for 20 years before the bureaucrats came along and magically made them unsafe after 10.

Your problem is a lack of understanding of certification processes and an over-riding disdain for "the bureaucrats".
Manufacturers of cylinders don't get any say in how long their cylinders are good for. They conform to manufacturing and testing requirements that give them a classification defined by "the bureaucrats". "the bureaucrats" in the case of engineering and safety issues are specialists and industry representatives that review state of the market and the standards on a regular basis. If the standards prove to be inadequate, the classification can be revoked or changed at anytime.

So, it may have been fine to put 20 years on a cylinder before, but when DOT or the international organisation decides that that classification doesn't exist anymore the only thing of importance on a tank is it's manufacturing date or last test date.

"g) It is the athlete’s responsibility that any air or CO2 cylinder is within manufacturer’s validity date (maximum of ten (10) years); this may be checked by Equipment Control and advisory recommendations may be given;"

So now I'm wandering off reservation and stating opinion only:

"manufacturer’s validity date" would mean date of manufacture or last testing date IMO. But are any airgun PCP cylinders inspectable/testable?

The complaints have been going on for 10 years or more now FFS. Might be time to either drop the grudge or come up with engineering and technical data to fight the international standards bodies or ISSF interpretation.

[spektr]

I just checked. None of the major producers of PCP air arms produce inspectable cans...... It seems that the PED doesn't recognize the existence of bottles that small, so nobody seems to make them that way.

[w4ti]

I'm pretty sure GWhite, or anyone else, doesn't have a lack of understanding here. The issue in this particular instance, as someone who recently purchased some tanks for a used Morini, also recently picked up, is that, regardless of what date is stamped on the tank, it seems pretty silly to just trash out the 20 year Morini tanks (of which I just replaced two, both were leaking out the manometer end and nearly at the end of the "20 year service life MAX (emp. mine)" (would have been 4/2021) only because someone came, after the fact of the sale as marked and final, and said, you know, this just won't do.

And many take issue with the idea that "manufacturers don't get a say in how long their cylinders are good for." It seems Morini thought 20 years was a good figure- rightly or wrongly- and even stamped such on the cylinders. Caveat emptor and all that, but if I buy a car that says it ought to run for 100,000 miles, and then someone says, you know, cars past 80,000 miles are just too dangerous, well, can you blame people for rightfully having an issue with the rules changing in the middle of the game? And if the rules change, normally the manufacturer has to pay to make it up; but in this case, no manufacturer has had to do so. Is that fair dinkum?

What I don't believe is that anyone here is saying safety doesn't matter, especially as many here work with youth shooters. If the cylinders are dangerous after a certain time, hey, I get it, no problem. But don't come after the fact when I bought something the manufacturer marked in a certain way and tell me I can't use it in regular use past what I'm now told, unless you are willing to listen to the bitching, but more importantly, pay for it.

[spektr]

As an owner of a PCP pistol and having 2 cans that have become life limited, I wanted to know why. I looked.
There was a significant event in the marine industry using disposable cylinders to inflate life rafts. A SOLAS problem.
The PED lacked guidance on the method to re-certify them. After deliberation, the PED custodians
revised the PED to place a 1/2 liter floor on in this class of container. Unfortunately, we
got included because we are actually no different than the cans on life rafts living in a very
corrosive salt laden environment. The PED was revised and the tanks birthday all of a sudden became important.
Kudos to Morini for saying they wanted to have a 20 year life on their tanks when nobody else had placed
a life limit on them prior to the PED revision. Subsequent to the PED revision, ISSF found they were allowing
cans past their revised service lives in contests and updated their rule book accordingly, USAS followed. I don't like
it any more than anybody else does, especially since our tanks live comparatively pampered existences.
But I understand the story, and while it appears to be a brute force method to fix the problem on non-inspectability,
its now the new international standard in the PED as well as DOT Regs that use the PED by reference. Morini still says
20 years because they acknowledge that tanks used outside of commerce still need a limit. Mind you that the 10 year limit
doesn't prevent you from refilling your tank yourself, it limits others from using /filling/servicing it in commerce. That's why
USAS and ISSF ruled the way they did, Their contests are in fact commerce, and they are bound by law to comply.

[Agt. Smith]

I picked up one of these. It will fill a K12 cylinder to 200 bar in about 60 seconds. Have used it regularly for several months. Loud as a freight train - but works great.

So far so good. It does go through output filters like mad (and only comes with six), so make sure you have extras. I also lube the o-rings about every month.

https://www.vevor.com/products/vevor-pc ... gIAGvD_BwE