Recoilless target firearm

[Bsquareng]

Over 40 years ago FWB came up with their model 65 match air pistol which virtually eliminated recoil due to the power spring. The FWB65 mechanized the "artillery hold" by mounting the spring mechanism on a sledge sliding on rails. It revolutionized precision airguns. Has anyone tried a similar solution to eliminate recoil in a powder burning firearm? I would have expected something on a "free pistol" if only because of the open range of allowed weapon characteristics, but have seen nothing in current literature. What am I missing?

[william]

What are you missing? In a spring-piston airgun, recoil isn't the problem. What a shooter feels is not a backward impulse caused by the equal and opposite reaction to the pellet's forward motion. What's felt is a forward impulse caused by the mass of forward-moving the spring-piston imparting its momentum to the gun's frame. That's what the complicated mechanisms of the FWB 65, 300 or Diana 75 remedy. Of the two, I always thought Diana's Giss system more clever than FWB's sledge.

[Bsquareng]

I understand the reaction kick of a spring power system. I have had a Diana model 5G whose kick I've never been able to tame and also a model 6 with Giss compensation. Night and day. The model 6 has almost no recoil, but it has some. If it didn't weigh 1500g it might be my favorite.

The lightest .22 bullet with sub-sonic velocity is going to produce enough recoil to produce some muzzle flip. That starts as the bullet builds up speed in the barrel and has to change its trajectory by some amount. Compensation for muzzle flip by allowing the opposite reaction to the bullet's acceleration to be guided by some sort of sledge on a track is what I was asking about.

[Rutty]

Reduced recoil or recoilless smallbore target rifles have been built. There was at least one competitor using one on the international circuit in the late ‘80s - early ‘90s. I gleaned this from the caption of a photo in the NSRA Rifleman. Unfortunately there were no details about the system and as it seemed to subsequently disappear from the scene I can only assume that it wasn’t particularly successful.

Rutty

[Tim S]

Rutty,

Would you happen to remember which edition it was? I acquired a fairly complete run from that period. The late John Kelly, in his Rifleman article on barrel vibration and pressure bedding, mentioned that he had tried and failed to make a recoilless Smallbore.

To the OP, I suspect the difficulty is making a device that is small enough to fit into a Pistol, but actually absorbs the recoil.

[Rutty]

Unfortunately not Tim,

It was one of these things I noticed in passing and expected more details to emerge at a later date. However nothing appeared and I concluded that it had been abandoned. Short of ploughing through The Rifleman 1985 - 95 there’s not much I can suggest. I suppose it could even have been Target Gun where I saw it.

I have the vague recollection that the shooter may have been Italian or Austrian.

Sorry not a lot of help, it must be an age thing!

Rutty

[dronning]

Physics is hard to overcome, all you can do is redirect the energy with weights, springs, gas or a combination of them.

The KRISS KARD came up with a fixed barrel and a kind of mousetrap device that redirected the energy reducing felt recoil and muzzle rise.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... more-12254

The Pardini does a good job of changing felt recoil with their 6 weights and springs.
- Dave

[sandy22]

My recollection is that that the shooter was Walter Frescura, and that the rifle was at least to some extent of his own devising.

But my recollection isn't always reliable, likewise probably it's an age/time thing and likewise I'm not ploughing through years of old magazines. Sorry not to be more help.

[Andre]

What are you missing? In a spring-piston airgun, recoil isn't the problem. What a shooter feels is not a backward impulse caused by the equal and opposite reaction to the pellet's forward motion. What's felt is a forward impulse caused by the mass of forward-moving the spring-piston imparting its momentum to the gun's frame. That's what the complicated mechanisms of the FWB 65, 300 or Diana 75 remedy. Of the two, I always thought Diana's Giss system more clever than FWB's sledge.

While recoil might not be a problem, it is indeed there. When the piston is shot forward, an equal force is applied into the shoulder.

[divingin]

Does anyone remember the S&W (I think) rapid fire pistol that looked sort of like a rectangular block of metal (I recall it was mid-80's timeframe.) Supposedly had the recoil impulse force the muzzle back and downwards.

I looked for it a while back and found no reference to it. I never heard if it was actually used in competition.

[David Levene]

Supposedly had the recoil impulse force the muzzle back and downwards.

I had a FAS601 that did that with Fiocchi Golden Match ammunition (the downwards recoil anyway).

It was an unshootable combination: too far removed from what you expected.