Young Shooter Advice

[marky-d]

I'm looking for some advice on how to help my son improve his 3P shooting.

As background, I am NOT an experienced precision shooter. My son is 10 years old, and is on the small side, but strong. He is currently shooting an Izhmash CM-2 Kadet. He only gets to shoot about once every two weeks, which I know is one of the main issues, but I'm looking for ways to maximize the time we HAVE, until I can figure out how to get more.

We have been using the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program as a basis for his shooting. He progressed quite comfortably up to Sharpshooter, shooting prone from bags. He was feeling good, confident, and having fun.

Then we tried to move to sitting, with a sling. Now he can't get many shots even in the black, he's frustrated, sore (wrists, legs), not seeing any improvement (partly because he can only shoot a few targets in a session), and not having fun anymore. Basically, it seems like the jump from supported prone to unsupported sitting is just too big.

So at our last range session, he ditched the sling and I had him sit with his back (or really, his left shoulder) against a wall and left elbow on left knee. This made him more comfortable and more stable, so he was able to shoot better and longer (physically and mentally!). So my plan is to have him shoot like this for a while, until his shooting improves to 8-10s again, then try to go back to a fully unsupported sitting position.

But what do you guys think? Am I risking "bad habits" by not forcing a 'correct' shooting position? My concern is pushing too hard on something not 'fun', and ruining his interest in trying at all. Do you have any other suggestions for helping his progression? Would it be better to have him work on kneeling or unsupported prone before sitting?

And I know someone is bound to say "find a coach who knows what they're doing", but that's not an option right now.

Thanks for any suggestions!
marky-d

[rtucker6508]

What's the long term goal?

Why sitting?

[shawn706]

Best advise I can give is make it fun. Play games. Try cutting cards in half. Anything that will make his triger time fun. If they're not haveing fun theres no point in doing it. Forget about scores for now.

[Pat McCoy]

Once he has good trigger control and sighting ability (including follow thru), go to offhand with a larger target (no scoring rings, no sling). Make it big enough that he can have success, then go to kneeling with sling and somewhat smaller target. Finally go to prone with sling, and standard target.

Keep EVERY target, so he can see that he IS progressing. There is less likely-hood of "burn out" when they can see progress (and the progression from hardest to easiest position all but guarantees that).

Sitting is the last position to learn, because it is the most individualized position (more dependent on body confirmation than any other).

If range availability is limited, try adding a Daisy 499 BB gun (or if you have room a Daisy 853) which he can shoot at home whenever he is ready to shoot. At that age we find "scheduled shooting" can be a problem from the standpoint of mental readiness, so let him shoot when he's ready (dry firing is great, but boring at that age level).

Shooting as seldom as you are, you will see little if any progress. Even once a week is very limiting. If he gets into it, he will progress rapidly at three sessions per week (and by then he'll understand the value of "dry holding" and "dry firing".

Also, don't be afraid to make the gun fit him. There are always new youngsters coming later, who will need a good used smaller rifle.

[marky-d]

Thanks guys!

Some answers:
Long term goal? For him, earning the Distinguished Expert rating. No perspective after that. For me, see him have fun and achieve his goals.
Why sitting? Because from what I read, it's supposed to be the most stable after prone, so I thought it would be the easiest.

Regarding using games/other targets/ignoring scores: this is a funny one, because I'm all for it, but I have to fight my son on it! He's so fixated on earning the next 'rank', at first he refused to even lean against the wall for support, because it wouldn't "count"! I think we've broken through that limitation now though.

We're going to practice some different positions at home this week, and see if we can find something that feels more comfortable/stable. Then maybe we'll try some bigger or other alternative targets next time we're at the range. It sounds like you're saying what my gut was telling me: just keep him shooting and worry about the technical details when he's ready.

marky-d

[bandur60]

if you want to share some fun, "semi-scored" shooting with him, or another young shooter with him, try something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QFOB4Q4/ref=dp_cerb_2.

I use these for our fun shoots in 4-H, I cover the hit zones with pasters from the "shoot-n-see" targets, small ones for prone shooting and going up in size for offhand and kneeling (never any bigger than the target circle, though). Shooters take turns, 1-3 shots at a time just like on the board game. Works with teams too, I have the two youngest or least experienced kids be captains and take turns choosing their team, rotate through with the better shooters firing later. Any hit that shows on the paster is a good hit, sink all the opponent's ships to win. It goes fairly fast and holds their interest, cheers, jeers, and anything in between, parents can get involved...... No numbers involved just hit or miss, they'll naturally try to hold for center but any hit shows up and counts.

[dakota308]

Is he shooting as part of a junior program or are you doing this on your own? I would try to find a junior program in your area. On shooting more, sporter air rifle would be a good option as you can usually shoot at home, basement or wherever you have 33 feet of clear space.

[marky-d]

The Battleship targets look fun, I might give them a try.

Currently we go to a free/"donations accepted" volunteer-based junior program, but, as they say, you get what you pay for. There is not any real coaching, but it's a place to shoot and they provide equipment for those that need it. For us, it's just available range time nearby, and I'm mostly on my own. Unfortunately the only other program I know of is about 45 minute drive each way. If he stays with it, I'm sure we will transition to there, but it's just too far to go regularly.

I would love to be able to practice with an air rifle, but again, easier said than done. That "33 feet of clear space" doesn't exist at our house (my wife would not allow me to set up a shooting range in our hallway). And air rifles (even Airsoft!) are classified as firearms in our town, and therefore just as illegal to discharge, so I'm not going to risk anything outside. Welcome to Southern California.

marky-d

[Pat McCoy]

That "33 feet of clear space" doesn't exist at our house

For many years I shot in a single car garage, about 25 feet diagonally. Much better than not shooting at all, as all the basics are the same and only small sight changes need to be made when going to 33'.

the only other program I know of is about 45 minute drive each way. If he stays with it, I'm sure we will transition to there, but it's just too far to go regularly.

If he does stay with it into his mid-teens, it is not a terrible drive IF he has lofty goals. I had a shooter drive 110 miles each way every week for four seasons (Sept-May), and could count on one hand the times he missed. His goal was to get into the top ten in the nation in either 3P or Air Rifle. He accomplished his goal (with much support from his folks)!

There is not any real coaching

If you are serious, you can purchase a copy of "The New Position Riffle Shooting" by Pullum & Hannenkrat, and a copy of Lanny Basham's "With Winning in Mind", and be way ahead of the local club in coaching him yourself.

Good luck, hope he stays with it. It's a great lifetime sport (at 72 I still compete in benchrest and Schuetzen on a local level, and hold my own).

[jhmartin]

It seems your son is only shooting smallbore.
Take a peek into 3-Position Air as well - The CMP has some very good training guides for the P-S & K positions ... they do have some for sitting, but those are focused mostly on high power.

Your Rifle .... My program uses these in our beginner & intermediate levels. The trigger really is bad (compared to the Olympic style rifles) and while I can take an experienced 3PAR shooter and have them shoot decent scores, it is only because they have good habits. The CM-2 will only get him so far.
If he stays interested, look on the Buy&Sell area of this forum for a used Anschutz Model 64 as a step up. If you want better look at a model 54 style action.
But those when he gets a bit older & stronger ... maybe he is now ... my youngest started on the CM-2 Cadet when she was 8 ... she switched to a relatively heavy 1813 (m54 action) when she was 12 or 13.

This may seem like overkill to many on this board, but since you only have the one gun, you might consider a used or new SCATT system and use it as a trainer dry firing down your hallway. When my Rachel & I could not get to the range (we're only 30 min away), even now when she gets home to train, we dry fire down the hallway.
NOTE ON YOUR CM2 --- You MUST use a dry fire "cushion" with that gun or you WILL ding up the chamber entrance area ... that barrel is relatively soft ... use #4 wall anchors (the yellow ones you'll find at a hardware store)

While not the only (or even the best use) of the SCATT, it can be used as sort of an electronic target. (Again Note - when you go to the range expect a POI shift) It's not a true electronic target, but a great training tool. Again, you can find them used occasionally on the B&S site of the forum. (probably about $800)

All in all - trigger time is very important. A shooter will be hard pressed to advance with only once every two weeks of time.
Most of our accomplished shooters from and in our program now shoot 2 times a week at Air Rifle (younger kids mostly 3PAR) and once on the weekend at smallbore ... thats 3 times per week. Over the years I've done this, that seems to be the minimum time normally required.

Southern Cal --- what can I say, I cannot imagine your pain. Depending where you are, look around for some high schools that may have a JROTC program, and then if they shoot 3PAR. Maybe you'll get lucky and they will let you join/train with them. Our program here in New Mexico, south of Albuquerque, would be nowhere without the JROTC programs in the schools to the north. We shoot matches together, and now many of our 4-H programs in the state here are working with the high school JROTC programs.

Materials ... also look for a copy of "The Ways of the Rifle" ... a good 3-P tool for coaches.
Education: Look to see if there is a "Level-1 Coach School" near you (you may have to go to Tucson for that .... don't know of any that get over into your state). A great beginner course for you, the coach.

Keep posting your progress and your comments here --- all will help

[marky-d]

Thanks for the continued feedback guys!

Unfortunately I think I can only get about 4ft of open space in the garage right now.... :)
I looked up "The New Position Rifle Shooting", and now expensive it is. However, I also came across the first version, "Position Rifle Shooting" by the same authors, for a lot less money -- is that good as well, or should I hold out for the "New" version?

I was able to find a local air rifle club that I'm waiting to get more information on. I think it's standing/offhand only, but that's better than nothing.

I'm going to have to disagree with the comment about the CM-2 trigger though. Maybe I just got a good one, or maybe it's because someone did some work on it before I got it, but it is pretty nice. My son actually asked me to make it a bit HEAVIER because it was too sensitive for him! So I adjusted it to be similar to the trigger on the Anschutz 54 he had been shooting before (the 54 is just too big for him for anything other than supported prone).

I've looked at the SCATT system, but I just can't justify the expense.

Thanks for the tip about HS JROTC programs -- I'll poke around and see if I can find something. There are a few private schools around that might have something -- I can't imagine any public schools around here would allow anything as barbaric as shooting sports. :)

Thanks again,
marky-d

[Pat McCoy]

"The New Position Rifle Shooting", and now expensive it is. However, I also came across the first version, "Position Rifle Shooting" by the same authors, for a lot less money -- is that good as well, or should I hold out for the "New" version?

The new book is much better, as it includes the mental aspects of shooting (which was missing in the first book). It is never too soon to start introducing the mental training, starting with "positive self talk". Most shooters tend to ignore their good shots, and growl at themselves on the "less good" shots, just the opposite of what they should be doing. Bashams book goes into this more, and is not very expensive.

Trigger time is important, but reading these books and thinking about what they are saying, is also part of the weekly training.

[rtucker6508]

http://www.theshootersedge.us/how-do-i- ... -shooting/

[marky-d]

That's a great link, thanks!

Unfortunately I mostly struck out with all the suggestions, but there are a couple possible leads.

[rtucker6508]

That's a great link, thanks!

Unfortunately I mostly struck out with all the suggestions, but there are a couple possible leads.

It is really getting harder and harder unfortunately. I don't see a lot of communication between the different governing bodies to help get new youth shooters involved... it's pretty sad actually!

[jhmartin]

That's a great link, thanks!

Unfortunately I mostly struck out with all the suggestions, but there are a couple possible leads.

It is really getting harder and harder unfortunately. I don't see a lot of communication between the different governing bodies to help get new youth shooters involved... it's pretty sad actually!

While it is getting harder I believe as well, the solution that applied here (in NM), and has worked to a great degree, is not relying on the national organizations so much, and digging in and finding other like minded volunteers to get the ball rolling in your area or state.

4-H was/is our first nose under tents (and tin buildings), and continues to to be our umbrella today.
The NRA Foundation Grants have steadily built our equipment up.
State JROTC programs and our club organizations teamed 15 years ago (thank you Bill Barker & Virginia MacLemore) to now have a statewide shooting program that incorporates CMP 3-P Air, NRA smallbore & USA Shooting Olympic events.
It hasn't always been easy, but the rewards to the volunteers and youth shooters are priceless.

[marky-d]

I feel very lucky to have found the group that we've been shooting with, even if it is only every two weeks. However, the problem we're running into is that the range charges us an arm and a leg to shoot even that much! It actually surprised me when I found out we had to pay at all, considering the range was getting an automatic crop of new shooters (and their parents) to buy memberships, guns, etc.

But I guess business is business, and they'll keep squeezing the blood from the turnip until we can find someplace better.

I'm feeling a bit cynical lately because our city has also decided to start charging our Cub Scout/Boy Scout groups to have our monthly meetings in our local Community Center. Historically it has been free for "community groups", but next year we're going to have to pay $1300 just for meeting space! A huge chunk of our yearly fundraising money just went from fun activities for the kids, to paying the city to operate.

<sigh>

[rtucker6508]

While it is getting harder I believe as well, the solution that applied here (in NM), and has worked to a great degree, is not relying on the national organizations so much, and digging in and finding other like minded volunteers to get the ball rolling in your area or state.

4-H was/is our first nose under tents (and tin buildings), and continues to to be our umbrella today.
The NRA Foundation Grants have steadily built our equipment up.
State JROTC programs and our club organizations teamed 15 years ago (thank you Bill Barker & Virginia MacLemore) to now have a statewide shooting program that incorporates CMP 3-P Air, NRA smallbore & USA Shooting Olympic events.
It hasn't always been easy, but the rewards to the volunteers and youth shooters are priceless.[/quote]

Completely agree! The X Count in Indiana has a terrific program that could be a model...

[Soupy44]

I used to run a program that focused on DE. There is nothing that forces you to work on positions from low to high, prone to sitting to kneeling to standing. Any kids that showed exceptional interest, a knack for shooting, or both, we would put right in standing for the exact reasons you have mentioned. The less motivated shooters liked the success of getting the next Bar or level, but it was very slow going. You'll actually get to DE faster by jumping to standing and working your way back down.

Since your son's confidence isn't exceptionally high at the moment, I would also suggest trying all the positions and working on them simultaneously. If he hits a wall in one, he has three others to fall back on to keep the progress going. It gives him options in his training and allows him to make decisions since it is his shooting after all.

Moving to air rifle is a great idea as the rifles are better balanced for smaller shooters. I have an idea to take it a step further for your smaller shooter. Him being strong isn't the way to think about it. Equipment needs to be sized for the user to execute proper technique. Find a used PCP air rifle in a junior size. If you can't find a used one, a new Air Airms T200 runs about $600, or and Air Arms S400 is about $1000. I mention the S400 because I have done the following to it myself.

Purchase a TRACE system, or similar precision training system. Remove the cylinder and barrel from the air rifle, and find a way to mount the trainer either to the forestock barrel/cylinder support, or to the rail underneath. You'll also need find a way to mount the front sight on the forestock support. This takes the ~7lb rifle with a balance point about 3in in front of the trigger guard, and makes it about 4lbs with a balance point around the grip. Now he can practice at home, without discharging the rifle, in a space of about 9ft.

With the above setup, I have gotten kids as young as 6yo into excellent standing positions, and got one 7yo hitting an air rifle black about 80% of the time in 20min. If the air rifle target proves too challenging, change it to an air pistol target with the training system and print a new target for the wall.

When he gets to the point, or practice range, simply put the barrel back on and pop the cylinder back in and you're good to go! I developed the above idea at work. I teach tennis full time and noticed we get kids, on a small court, with small rackets, and fun multicolored balls hitting forehands and backhands over the net at 4yo within 30min. As stated above, success and fun will keep his interest in the short run (and yes, working towards the next DE level is perfectly fine motivation). In the long run, continued improvement and an appreciation for that improvement will be key, so setting him up with good fundamentals now can pay huge dividends...even if done with smaller, somewhat outside the box equipment.

Good luck to your kid!

[40xguy]

lots of thoughts here about what YOU can do for him. I'm wondering what HIS thoughts are. ie, how does HE feel about all this? what are HIS long term goals? does HE see shooting as fun and is HE enthusiastic about this? look at things from HIS point of view !!