Tight groups on white target (back of target) but....

[maddox987]

Hello,

I am very pleased with my technique* when I am shooting on white target (back of target) but when I shoot on the actual target, I hold for long which then leads either to looking at the target black or dipping of the front sight and/or all sorts of trigger problems (jerking, heeling, tightening of fingers, anticipation of recoil). I even sometimes feel my hold has opened up.

Technique [* = (I keep looking at aligned sights > I get a surprise shot > and then a good follow through)]

How do I overcome this?

I remind myself to shoot as if I am shooting on white target but I end up making all the mistakes mentioned above.
This problem is more apparent during first series of my match.

Is this just a matter of practice? Are there any special drills ?

Thanks in advance.

[ChipEck]

I would strongly suggest talking to/potentially purchasing coaching from Dina Aspandiyarova over the Internet. I was hesitant, but she offers a free "get to know each other" session. I ended up buying a bunch of sessions with her. Her English is excellent, no problem understanding her(or her me). There is a thread on her and satisfied students on TargetTalk. Below is her intial posting.

Chip Eckardt


Good day from Australia. We all know about distant or correspondence kind of education, various online courses and webinars. In modern world it proves to be convenient, fast and productive method of learning things. So, I thought why not to try the same approach in shooting sport.
Over the years of training by myself and with the others, I realised that as much as shooters need to be observed during live training, it is just as important (or even more) that they were told how to think; what not to think; how to plan their training and what to do to ensure that each training made sense. They need someone who would not only explained them how to do things correctly, but also convinced them, encouraged them or pushed them, supported them, made things look easier than they are. And to be able to do all of this, I don’t need to be present at the live training. I also know that many people don’t have an access to the quality coaching or simply don’t have anybody to ask whether they do things correctly or not. Do you agree? So for such people, who speak English or Russian, training with me via SKYPE might be a good option.
Let me introduce myself. My name is Dina Aspandiyarova. I am a shooter with 18 years of international competition experience; 3 times Olympian; Gold, Silver and Bronze medallist of the Commonwealth Games; Asian Games Champion, and current Australian Air Pistol record holder. My personal best in APW event shot on international competitions is 395. For the last 3 years I have worked in Singapore as the National women’s pistol team coach. Some achievements of my shooters were: 1st place at 2014 Commonwealth Games; Gold and Silver individual medals, and 2 Silver team medals at 2015 South-East Asian Games; 2 of my girls were finalists of Asian Championship, one girl won a Rio Olympic 2016 quota place in Sport Pistol; the same girl also won a Bronze medal at Rio de Janiero ISSF World Cup, 2016. I am ISSF category C coaching certificate holder. I lived and trained in 4 countries: Kazakhstan, Russia, Australia and Singapore, and know different methods of training. There is only one paid coach position in Australia, and maybe I should try to find job in another industry, but I feel I could still be helpful in this one.
Do you have a passion for the sport of Shooting? Do you want to achieve your goals in this sport? Have you been in the sport for a while but feel that you are stuck at your current level of results? Do you want to improve your technical, tactical, psychological and specific physical skills? Do you want to learn new practices and get rid of bad shooting habits? If you want to learn how to use your imagination and to find how it might help you, then I’m at your service. The cost is moderate. I know pistol shooters are not shotgunners, we’re always on a budget. The assessment questionnaire and first 30 min introductory obligation free session are free of charge. Students and seniors get discount.
I already have few shooters (aged between 21 and 68) from 5 continents who decided to take a risk and give it a go, and I believe they don’t regret. If you’re interested or know someone who might be, don’t hesitate to message me. Also you can find my page "Freelance Pistol coach - Dina Aspandiyarova" on Facebook.


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[SteveT]

1. Visualization
2. Self Talk
3. Training. If you find yourself looking at the target, stop, put the gun down and start over. Repeat as necessary.

Andy Moody talked about having "indicators" These are points in your shot process the show if you are doing (and concentrating on) the correct things all the positive indicators will be ticked before you pull the trigger. If any of the negative indicators show up, stop, abort and restart.

[David Levene]

If any of the negative indicators show up, stop, abort and restart.

How many of us can honestly say that we wouldn't benefit from acting on that advice.

[David M]

It sounds like you could benefit from a little more de-focus on your shooting glasses.

[Greg Derr]

What area are you holding/aiming. You might benefit from sub six hold which puts more emphasis on sights and less on pinpoint hold than let’s say six o’clock.

[Silvershooter]

It sounds like you could benefit from a little more de-focus on your shooting glasses.

David M , Could you elaborate on that point ?

[David M]

If you are using shooting glasses, try a stronger lens.
Increase the power by +0.25 diopter. this will move the focal
point closer to the foresight and easier to hold focus on the sights.

[Coolmeester]

If you are using shooting glasses, try a stronger lens.
Increase the power by +0.25 diopter. this will move the focal
point closer to the foresight and easier to hold focus on the sights.

Maybe even +0.50.

[Rover]

Tighty-whities, eh?

[Gwhite]

One thing that can help is to put a small splodge of orange or yellow chalk on the back of your front sight. That gives you something new & different to focus on. Don't cover the whole sight. The more irregular the better. Every crumb should be in sharp focus when the shot breaks. The last one I put on a student's pistol looked like Florida... One advantage is that it is easy to change if you find that over time you get too used to a particular shape & begin to "tune it out".

Once you get your eye trained, you can dispense with the chalk, but if you find your focus wandering, it's easy to put a new mark on the sight. I've had a lot of students who have shown significant improvement with this dodge.

Apparently "dayglo" marks aren't legal, but plain colored chalk should be fine. You are also much less likely to have any fuss at equipment check with a small random mark than if you cover the entire sight blade.

Depending on the range lighting or the sight blade geometry, you may have a hard time seeing the mark. Sights with a lot of back rake put the mark in shadow unless there is a good bit of light from the rear, for example.

[David Levene]

Apparently "dayglo" marks aren't legal, but plain colored chalk should be fine.

That is correct. I have clarification of the "color" aspect of rule 8.4.1.3 a) from the Technical Director of the ISSF.
"Normal" colours are fine. "Fluorescent" colours are prohibited.

[ShootingSight]

Sounds like you are struggling to preserve close focus, which happens as you get older and the lens in the eye begins to stiffen, so the eye muscle (the Ciliary muscle, which controls focus) is struggling. If you add the brain distraction of an image at the target, your eye does not want to stay focused up close. The solution is to add positive diopter power in your shooting lens, which artificially shifts your focus closer to you, without your eye muscle having to do the work. Reading glasses are another example of this phenomena, though they are too powerful and shift your focus back SO close that you get a fantastic sight, but your target is too blurry to be useful. If you have good distance vision, try it with a cheap pair of low power reading glasses, like a +1.25. If you wear glasses for distance vision, you can still try it, but you need to wear the reading glasses on top of your regular glasses, so you are looking through both lenses. Not a practical solution to anything, but it makes the point.

Mathematically, if you calculate the optical physics, the correct lens power for shooting a pistol with iron sights is to add +0.75 diopters to your best distance prescription, or just wear +0.75 glasses if you have 20/20 distance vision. If you actually want the page long discussion of the optical formulas, search this forum or google 'shootingsight'.

This will place your eye's relaxed focal point at the hyperfocal distance of the rear sight, so your eye's depth of field is centered between the rear sight and the target. This means rear and target will have equal blur, and the front sight will be a little sharper than the target or the rear. And all of this is happening while your eye muscle is totally relaxed. Also, once your lens pulls your focus in this close, your eye cannot focus on the target, as eye muscle exertion can only bring focus closer, it cannot push focus out.

[Gwhite]

There is a new article out on vision & shooting by Dr. Norman Wong that is worth a read:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssu ... ex.php#/24

In the article, he refers to a couple of previous articles:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssu ... 20/OnePage

and

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssu ... ex.php#/16

[scerir]

I am very pleased with my technique* when I am shooting on white target (back of target) but when I shoot on the actual target, I hold for long which then leads either to looking at the target black or dipping of the front sight and/or all sorts of trigger problems (jerking, heeling, tightening of fingers, anticipation of recoil). I even sometimes feel my hold has opened up.

focus on the front sight is a must, but smooth continuous trigger release is more important (according to top coaches)

[thirdwheel]

Agree with all of the above and I learn something new on here to help all of the time, a little chalk mark what a super idea to keep relaxed focus on the front sight.

Here is my tuppence worth - take expectation and wanting to sore well out of it just produce a perfect sight picture and release your end of the 10m and don't bother looking at where the holes develop until the end of the string, don't scope, flick the target off the backstop to get light behind it to see if using a changer and if you are using electronic turn the screen away. If shooting a comp and you are bringing the cards back after two or five shots just look to see if they are off center and how far and if necessary use it to adjust sights and don't clock the scores get excited if it is going well or upset if it is not, just put the next card up and do it again. Trying hard to get a good score does not work, working hard to get the good sight picture and a smooth slow pressure release and following through does.

It's easy to score a ten it is doing the exact same thing under pressure 60 times that is the problem.

[Ricardo]

The one thing that helped me the most, in terms of dealing with the black dot that is the bullseye, is to practice with a rifle target taped at a random location of the back of a target. Then shoot as if on a blank card. This way there is a distraction somewhere near where you are "aiming", and you train your eye to ignore it. After placing the rifle target at various locations I started to learn to not look at the black circle and then switched to a pistol target while sort-of-aiming near the circle but not caring where. Bigger distraction to ignore, which is more difficult, but it has done great things for finally learning how it's done. People say to not look at the target, but it feels almost like looking away from the target. There is effort involved in not looking.

[Elmas]

It's easy to score a ten it is doing the exact same thing under pressure 60 times that is the problem.

Under pressure , or even , no pressure .

The pleasure is in the masochistic attempts at a theoretical possibility . The feeling that one is sure to do better next session !

[JamesHH]

Is this just a matter of practice? Are there any special drills ?

Thanks in advance.

Aim at target
Shut eyes
Squeeze trigger smoothly

Once you can master this shooting with your eyes open is a lot easier.

[deadeyedick]

JamesHH
Post subject: Re: Tight groups on white target (back of target) but....Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:41 am
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:10 pm
Posts: 31
maddox987 wrote:
Is this just a matter of practice? Are there any special drills ?

Thanks in advance.

Aim at target
Shut eyes
Squeeze trigger smoothly

Once you can master this ....shooting with your eyes open is a lot easier.

Not surprised.