Dealing with plateaus

[Houngan]

I'm still pretty fresh, getting back into AP. One interesting point I find myself at is that I feel that every aspect of my shot process and execution is improving, but my scores have stabilized, a 91-92 average.

One difference is that in the last two weeks, I seem to have moved from "try hard as hell to hold the 9" to "very, very easy 10s, punctuated by 8s."

The 8s aren't twitchy like they used to be, it's generally a last second breakdown either is alignment (problem with my wrist turning inward ) or my hold sliding off. Some of that is shooting much faster, some is not putting the shot down often enough. But when it works, man does it work.

So, experiences? Should I simply keep shooting and think that more stability will come over time, or is it a sign that I have a more serious flaw that needs to be run to ground?

[Gwhite]

A lot depends on WHERE the 8's are. If they are all in the same direction, you need to figure out what part of your shot process is breaking down. You can then think about training specifically to address that issue. It could be your grip, trigger control or sight alignment/picture.

This may help:

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/DIAGNOSE.PDF

[Houngan]

A lot depends on WHERE the 8's are. If they are all in the same direction, you need to figure out what part of your shot process is breaking down. You can then think about training specifically to address that issue. It could be your grip, trigger control or sight alignment/picture.

This may help:

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/DIAGNOSE.PDF

Within reason, the mistakes are all in the downward left direction, indicating wrist collapse. But my question is how do I fix it, rather than what is it? Reading through the bullseye encyclopedia, I think it might be head movement chasing the sight picture, but I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

[hundert]

if you people made picture we'd be able to help, take one from your eye pointed at the gun you're holding, the sight picture with the hand visible (roll up the sleeve).

you most probably need to turn the gun to the right inside you hand to make it stop collapsing inward

[Gwhite]

A lot depends on WHERE the 8's are. If they are all in the same direction, you need to figure out what part of your shot process is breaking down. You can then think about training specifically to address that issue. It could be your grip, trigger control or sight alignment/picture.

This may help:

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/DIAGNOSE.PDF

Within reason, the mistakes are all in the downward left direction, indicating wrist collapse. But my question is how do I fix it, rather than what is it? Reading through the bullseye encyclopedia, I think it might be head movement chasing the sight picture, but I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

Who told you it was "wrist collapse"? I don't even know what that is, but then I've only been doing this for about 50 years....

7:00 shots are far more likely to be the result of being too aggressive with the trigger (assuming you are right handed). You have to LET the shot break. If you force it for any reason, the usual result is a shot low & left. it doesn't take much to push a shot into the 8 ring. Dry firing will help. It can also help to focus on an action that will result in the shot firing, rather than thinking about "firing the shot". Either constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, or constantly keeping the trigger moving to the rear. It may depend a bit on both your personal preference, and how your trigger is set up.

[SamEEE]

Hold, watch the sights, and squeeeeeeeeeeeze. All of these, and all at once.

Preconceived notion (positive mental picture) of the shot process before undertaking can help too.

It's actually pretty easy to shoot 10s if you do everything right. Good or bad, smile and push on. Every shot a match.

[Houngan]

A lot depends on WHERE the 8's are. If they are all in the same direction, you need to figure out what part of your shot process is breaking down. You can then think about training specifically to address that issue. It could be your grip, trigger control or sight alignment/picture.

This may help:

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/DIAGNOSE.PDF

Within reason, the mistakes are all in the downward left direction, indicating wrist collapse. But my question is how do I fix it, rather than what is it? Reading through the bullseye encyclopedia, I think it might be head movement chasing the sight picture, but I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

Who told you it was "wrist collapse"? I don't even know what that is, but then I've only been doing this for about 50 years....

7:00 shots are far more likely to be the result of being too aggressive with the trigger (assuming you are right handed). You have to LET the shot break. If you force it for any reason, the usual result is a shot low & left. it doesn't take much to push a shot into the 8 ring. Dry firing will help. It can also help to focus on an action that will result in the shot firing, rather than thinking about "firing the shot". Either constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, or constantly keeping the trigger moving to the rear. It may depend a bit on both your personal preference, and how your trigger is set up.

The difference is I'm seeing the movement before the shot break. Granted, I should be cancelling the shot at that point, but I'm not perfect in that regard. For trigger break, I'm very happy at this point, it's one of the stronger parts of my game right now. But on target I'll get a before-break movement downward or an alignment problem inward just before break, which seems like it has to be process error, rather than break error.

[SamEEE]

What you can do is line up the sights and lock the wrist at the 'ready' position with the nose of the pistol still on the bench.

In feeling the tension in the forearm and relaxed fingers you can move from there in the knowledge you don't need to do anything more other than hold on to that feeling.
From there just don't stop believing. Listen to Journey if it helps. it helps me
Then: look at the target and then roll that preconceived notion through your head of the perfect shot, and then do it.

Piece of cake. Remember me when you get to the top.

If it isn't right on the bench (wrist, aligned sights) it likely never will be.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcjzHMhBtf0

[Gwhite]

Within reason, the mistakes are all in the downward left direction, indicating wrist collapse. But my question is how do I fix it, rather than what is it? Reading through the bullseye encyclopedia, I think it might be head movement chasing the sight picture, but I haven't had a chance to test that yet.

Who told you it was "wrist collapse"? I don't even know what that is, but then I've only been doing this for about 50 years....

7:00 shots are far more likely to be the result of being too aggressive with the trigger (assuming you are right handed). You have to LET the shot break. If you force it for any reason, the usual result is a shot low & left. it doesn't take much to push a shot into the 8 ring. Dry firing will help. It can also help to focus on an action that will result in the shot firing, rather than thinking about "firing the shot". Either constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, or constantly keeping the trigger moving to the rear. It may depend a bit on both your personal preference, and how your trigger is set up.

The difference is I'm seeing the movement before the shot break. Granted, I should be cancelling the shot at that point, but I'm not perfect in that regard. For trigger break, I'm very happy at this point, it's one of the stronger parts of my game right now. But on target I'll get a before-break movement downward or an alignment problem inward just before break, which seems like it has to be process error, rather than break error.

It could be that you are losing focus on your sight alignment when you switch too much concentration to your trigger squeeze. The other possibility is simple anticipation, which suggests that you are forcing the shot off.

Line up your sights like you are going to fire a shot, and then tighten your grip a little. Does the pistol move, and if so, in what direction?

[JD Mahan]

2 things to check...
1) are you tightening your grip as you start the trigger pull?

2) (and this was my issue) are you dropping your head slightly as you 'focus hard' on the front sight?

Spend some time dry firing; or try to have someone watch you shoot several shots.

Good luck.

[seamaster]

Let it float.

Let it float.

Parallel error is OK.

Parallel error is OK.

Just let it float and squeeze.

[RyanA]

I love this post, please keep it going! This is the most informative and helpful post I've seen in a great long time. Thank you to the original poster for getting this started.

[Rune Kanstad]

If it isn't right on the bench (wrist, aligned sights) it likely never will be.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcjzHMhBtf0

Lining up the sights on the bench only works if your shoulder joint is at eye level. And if it is, you really need to relax more!

[DanielSwe]

How much do you dry fire, and how good is your follow through?

[TenMetrePeter]

I dreamed of a plateau at 92. Never made it.

[Houngan]

2 things to check...
1) are you tightening your grip as you start the trigger pull?

2) (and this was my issue) are you dropping your head slightly as you 'focus hard' on the front sight?

Spend some time dry firing; or try to have someone watch you shoot several shots.

Good luck.

I think you hit the nail on the head, pun intended. I came across the same suggestion in the BE Encyclopedia, that head movement would move the sights, and it was something I hadn't watched for previously. I did a little testing last night but my vision wasn't the best after a few beers, but keeping my head perfectly still in all dimensions SEEMED to be coupled with the sight picture holding steady. More testing to follow today.

I'm hoping that it covers both of my problems, the slide off and the wrist turn, maybe my grip was fighting my head.

[Houngan]

How much do you dry fire, and how good is your follow through?

Not enough and not good enough.

The tricky bit about the problem was that it was a slow problem. I could see it happening well before the shot broke (in relative time of course; half a second feels like a minute when you're focused on the sights) so that I'm calling the mistake very accurately. Of course I need to work on putting the shot down when I see something like that, but there you go.

I think follow through will be the most helpful for the slide problem, my brain obviously isn't trained to keep the sights on target at all times yet. The wrist thing, though, I believe is my head moving, as above.

[Coolmeester]

Follow through is the answer. Think that the point of relase is in the middle of the shot process. Long follow through also increases your physics as a shooter.

I---------------------------- o ----------------------------I
Hold...squeeze...pufff...still hold...lower the arm

[Houngan]

Follow through is the answer. Think that the point of relase is in the middle of the shot process. Long follow through also increases your physics as a shooter.

I---------------------------- o ----------------------------I
Hold...squeeze...pufff...still hold...lower the arm

Good advice, and something I definitely need to work on.

I ran home at lunch to test it out, shot 40 shots. First target was a 49 (I accidentally let one go as I was lowering, wasn't a twitch). Then things got a little ugly. I definitely caught myself trying to nod my head forward, particularly when I was on a long hold. Had some lateral wiggles, etc.

BUT, the second 20 rounds tells me that I was very likely doing something with my head and posture. The only change was that I was consciously standing upright and not moving my spine or head, and had only a single 8 in all the 20 shots, a millimeter off the line. Even more interesting, I was able to hang my hold up there for WAY too long and still produce a 10/9. Previously that's when I would twitch an 8/7. For that 20, I shot 190, a personal best.

As I get a chance I'll do a full 60 and see what's what.

[AlexFromPardini]

The difference is I'm seeing the movement before the shot break. Granted, I should be cancelling the shot at that point, but I'm not perfect in that regard. For trigger break, I'm very happy at this point, it's one of the stronger parts of my game right now. But on target I'll get a before-break movement downward or an alignment problem inward just before break, which seems like it has to be process error, rather than break error.[/quote]

Maybe in anticipation of the shot you are releasing tension in your wrist...Does just the front sight move downward or the whole pistol?

Have you tried using a SCATT machine? This will actually show you alot of what you are doing. In addition, if you have movement and are worried that the movement is great, then you are more likely to make the mistake. Its a weird psychological tendency. For some reason, when you think of the negative outcome, it is more likely to happen.

For instance, when I was in Austria, my hold "seemed" atrocious...but when i went on the scatt machine it showed me that the hold was actually really good (70%-90%within the 10.0 ring) and it just looked as though it was alot.
I have found that the better I get, the more critical I am of the hold.

Also, the scatt sensor can show you what mistakes you are making and how your hold changes depending on what you are doing and it can show exactly what you need to work on