AP Pistol Shaming

[Xman]

Another Xman rant...

I am so tired of people here on this forum shaming other peoples APs. I am speaking specifically regarding shaming the IZH 46 and other Russian manufactured shooting items.

Yes they do not have the pedigree of PCP Styer, Morini, FWB, Walther and others. Or the bells and whistles that the high $$$ APs have, or the favored "better" SSPs--- but calling them farm equipment, potato diggers, hammers, etc is not a kind thing to do..even if tongue in cheek.

They are not sleek, smooth and sexy in appearance. They are not PCP in design or have a nice smooth cocking action. The metal work is dull not glossy, clanky and clunky to be sure, the trigger is way way better than most people give it credit for and the shamers likely have never fired one or tried one for an extended period of time or made adjustments to the trigger and grip.

They (the IZH 46) does and can get the job done. I would put the 46 up against any $$$ PCP and other SSP in the hands of a top level shooter and the scores would be nearly if not equal.

It may be as case of elitism, snooty, nose stuck up in the air for the shamers and/or a case of price envy.

Yeah you PCP and other owners can chuckle, sneer and joke about the 46 and its origins, design and the price, but the 46 can equal your fancy A$$ APs.

You do not see them on the line at the high level competitions or even the mid levels. And you care to know why? Marketing, sponsorship's and other efforts (yes this board too) to freeze out the other competition models. Even the shaming here can suppress sales. But you do see they go quickly here in the buy/sell forum despite the shaming. Agreed there is greater availability of other APs due to importing restrictions/bans and that can "force" others into paying the a Kings ransom for the free trade APs, but slamming other choices (yes Rover you included) is not a good policy to grow the sport.

I hear/read the constant refrain.."you cant buy points" and I believe that is just the opposite that is being presented by the shamers. Denigrating the 46 and thereby pushing the latest and alleged greatest only further pushes a whole generation of shooters..young and older into purchasing a very expensive unit when a mid $$$ unit is way more than needed to reach their goals. Not everyone is looking to be an Olympian or go to Milan or other WC. They just want to shoot at a lower cost. Will you ever see a 46 at the Olympics or WC? Not likely. Why?..Well it is not because it cant produce the scores. It is because of marketing, sponsorship's, advertising and "reputation". Deserved reputation, of course, but to criticize other AP that can do the same job is just wrong.

Yeah I read here .."buy once, cry once" and the so and so PCP.." it is an investment with great resale value". But saying it has a great resale value suggests that the buyer will/may have regrets for what ever reason... no time, got bored, lost interest, needed the $$$ for something else or saw that they were never going to be any good at AP and gave up, etc... is a set up for failure.

And that is not what we are seeking here in this forum.

[v76]

Wow, where to start...?

[Chia]

I think you need to take a look in the mirror and determine whether you are speaking to others or yourself. I haven't seen that sorta stuff on the forum.

And if it is, I fail to see why someone else's opinion of your gun should matter that much. The only opinion on my how well my gun shoots that matters is my wife.

Oh, wait, we're talking about air pistols. Anyways, I say chill out and enjoy the forum.

[dronning]

I don't think anyone would disagree that the 46 is capable of 10 after 10. If you can go a whole match with no issue pumping good for you, the 46 won't hold you back at all. For those with bad joints or injuries pumping an AP isn't an option. In my opinion the LP10E's trigger is superior to the LP10, there are people that feel the opposite. Most people would say that both are superior to the 46, but then there are those that would disagree.

There are about as many opinions as there are people on this site, I'd take Chia's suggestion and chill out and go and enjoy your 46.

- Dave

[TenMetrePeter]

I admit to describing the 46 as "agricultural" but not as an insult. It just uses mostly mild steel, probably more than necessary, and it shows the pivots and screws. Like a tractor. I love tractors.

[SamEEE]

You clearly have no clue. Morini is the best.

Secondly: who cares?

Thirdly: it's not really about the gun at all.

You present a false dichotomy (good gun, bad gun - it is not binary: except for the IZH-46 which is actually terrible...), and a bunch of strawmen arguments which hold very little weight. Take this one with a pinch of salt.

[slofyr]

Holiday season rants and flames can be so entertaining. :) SSP shooters get no respect. Xman, if you want to experience real prejudice, buy a 6004.






Apologies to LGBT

[6string]

And the Winner of "The Best Post of the Day" goes to...

Slofyr

[ghillieman]

I have used the 46 several times at the air gun range at Camp Perry. It certainly leaves room for you to doubt its capabilities, but it will shoot 10's.

[David M]

"Yeah you PCP and other owners can chuckle, sneer and joke about the 46 and its origins, design and the price, but the 46 can equal your fancy A$$ APs."

It all ways amazes me that all this wisdom about these pump guns and old airpistols comes from a country of 325 million people that
can only get 65 entries to their National competitions.
None of these pistols have been seen at a World event in the last 35 years.
You need to get real, World level scores in Air pistol are in the 580-585 level not in the 570's of 20yrs ago
nor 560's of 30 yrs ago.

[kevinweiho]

Among all the air pistols that I own, I still have and cherish my IZH46M. It has the same incredible accuracy as my first tier pcp pistols (two Steyr LP10’s and a FWB P34). I feel that at the highest level of competition, the pcp’s will give an experienced shooter more advantage than a ssp. Don’t get me wrong, the Izzy in my opinion is an excellent air pistol, but when you’ve mastered your fundamentals to a certain degree, it’s necessary to upgrade.

[slofyr]

... pump guns and old airpistols... None of these pistols have been seen at a World event in the last 35 years. You need to get real, World level scores in Air pistol are in the 580-585 level not in the 570's of 20yrs ago nor 560's of 30 yrs ago.

Yup, having been active in AP for more than 30 years, I can verify that scores have gone up with new air pistol designs. From what I have witnessed, the increase is directly related to the pistols and not so much the shooter's skill. It's a prime example of the illusion of personal advancement through technology. I've seen hotshots humbled when their techno-crutch was unavailable and they had to shoot something with fewer sparkly attributes. They always blame the pistol, and they are right.

Obviously, the development of PCP's has produced pistols that are easier to shoot well. That's the point. The evolution is intended to generate sales and support an industry, give top tier shooters an edge, and provide wannabes with a yellow brick road. In reality [getting real], the majority of shooters will never in their lifetime develop the skill set to go much beyond the accuracy capabilities of an old pump gun. If the need is there, though, pursuing the facade of a PCP will compensate a lot for missing wisdom, or wherever the deficiency is.

[PFribley]

Variety is the spice of life!!!!

[Gwhite]

I've been shooting precision air pistols since around 1967 (almost 50 years...), and have seen the evolution of the designs first hand. My first pistol was a Diana spring piston imported by Daisy. In college, the team I was on shot FWB 65's. When I graduated, I bought a Walther LP3 SSP. Later, I got a Walther CP1 shortly after they were introduced. I got it through a friend in Switzerland, before they were imported into the US. I won the state air pistol championship in 1983 with that, and that score (573) is still my personal best. In the early 1990's, I bought a Morini 162EI, and have shot that since then, but I stopped competing around then.

Certainly not having to wind up your pistol for each shot has helped, partly by eliminating wear & tear on the shooter, but also by allowing more focus on shooting. Switching from CO2 to compressed air eliminated some variables, but that was done about 25 years ago. The triggers haven't improved dramatically, nor the sights or the grips. All those "new" pistol designs you point to as improving scores are not very "new". The test group for my CP1 was just about as tiny as for my Morini. The big innovation Steyr brought to the table was the adjustable grip, but with time & a file, a world class shooter could duplicate the end result. Steyr just made it easier.

I think any improvement in scores is more due to better training and technique than technology. Before Jin Jong-oh shot a 594 in 2009, the world record in air pistol was a 593, shot in 1989, which is BEFORE any of the new technology you point to came along.

[SlartyBartFast]

No matter what sport or hobby or interest you get involved with there are in jokes that you need to be able to take in the spirit they're meant to be taken, and comments that are meant to be derogatory.

Online, it's often impossible to distinguish which is which before learning the history of the people making the comments. Some are are people attempting to be funny but who just come across as assholes.

But for those that are really making derogatory comments, I've never been able to understand what sad little part of their psychi gets a boost by putting others down. Or what insecurities they are incapable of expressing that leads to the need to create divisions.

Whether it's calling me a noob not worthy of owning a high end gun, or being derogatory about the gun I bought, those same people are behaving in the same manner towards others with everything except their preferred equipment.

So, the advice I have trouble following myself: try and let most comments pass and not take offence, but don't shy from telling people when what they say is crossing the line.

[Shooterer]

Deleted under the "think twice before you post" idea.....
Carry on, nothing to see here.

[Chia]

I think any improvement in scores is more due to better training and technique than technology.

I believe that this is true. As anyone who has put an air pistol on a ransom rest can tell you, these guns shoot pretty damn accurately. Way more accurately than any human can shoot.

The variable in the sport is unquestionably the user and the ease of use of the pistol by the user.

Edited out a section of my post since I confused Walther with Lothar-Walther.

[Rover]

Here ya go. Use it in good health!

http://www.hurtfeelingskit.com/

[JC Hayes]

Good one Rover.
It appears they have not included the latest needed accessory.
Safety pins.

[DFWdude]

Not sure why anyone feels shamed at their choice of Russian equipment. In the hands of world class shooters, my TOZ-35 has won many World Titles, and it definitely was made in a "tractor factory." The ex-Soviet system meant (still means) that most all shooting equipment was manufactured in a "collective factory," that also made everything from farm tractors to washing machines to eating untensils. And yes, guns. No reason to feel shamed about that.

My only complaints about the IZH-46 are two, and have absolutely NOTHING to do with product "marketing"...

1) The principle of hand pumping the airgun runs counter to minimizing physical exertion (heart-rate) during a match. But this includes ALL Single Stroke Pneumatics, of which the Izzy is only one. As a former Pardini-Fiocchi dealer, I sold a hundred K-60/K-90 pistols for every single P-10 or K-58 SSP. Shooter preferences speak (loudly).

2) The weight of the pistol (the all-steel IZ-46 in particular). The IZ-46 makes a great physical trainer for 50m pistol, as the Izzy and my TOZ-35 weigh about the same. My Steyr LP1-P weighs only 880 grams, so the extra 300-340 gram (10-12 ounce) difference between it and the Izzy makes the later feel like a boat anchor from the Queen Mary. Can't get around that. If that makes anyone feel shamed, then so be it... and sorry (I guess).