Smith&Wesson 52 .38WC

[ser2711]

I decide to reload as I cannot find accurate competition ammunitions in .38 WC on the italian market..Can suggest me best reloading component for S&W 52? Bullet size must important.. Thanks))

[Rover]

Bullet size is not important. Generally, a fat bullet works best. Since the M52 has a .355 bore, you've been using "fat" .358 bullets all along.

My M52 shot best using the old Speer HBWC from a bulk box. The only way to know what works is to test various bullets and powders.

[RJP]

For the M52 you must use wad cutter bullets and any 148 grain 38 cal wad cutter will be just fine at 25 yards. If you shoot 50 yards, I recommend against the hollow base wad cutter bullet because the longer bullet is only marginally stable at that distance due the the slow twist of the S&W barrels. Loading data is found online at the powder manufacturers websites.

[Green_Canoe]

I use either a Hornady or Speer 148 gr. HBWC over 2.8 (IIRC) grains Bullseye in my Colt wadcutter gun. I've found it hard to create a load that shoots worse than I do.

[C. Perkins]

For the M52 you must use wad cutter bullets and any 148 grain 38 cal wad cutter will be just fine at 25 yards. If you shoot 50 yards, I recommend against the hollow base wad cutter bullet because the longer bullet is only marginally stable at that distance due the the slow twist of the S&W barrels. Loading data is found online at the powder manufacturers websites.

That is a myth.
All wad cutters out of an M52 will exibit unstable characteristics called "tipping" at 25 or 50 yards.
Remington 148 gr HBWC are the best for the long line and the others trail in accuracy.

Load them and shoot them.

Clarence

[motorcycle_dan]

In my humble opinion:
never got good results from cast bullets. DEWC or any form of cast bullet. Swaged soft lead HBWC is the way to go.
Sort your brass by head stamp. Case volume will change performance and case length will change the amount of crimp.
I buy Zero HBWC, tumble lube them with Lee Liquid Alox. pour LLA treated bullets onto a cookie sheet and let dry. give 'em a shake every 10 min or so when first drying to make sure the LLA is spread evenly.
Bullets need to be seated flush or slightly sub-flush. If you are over anal about the load make up a batch of trimmed to minimum same head stamp cases and use only them.

2.8 of BE with Winchester primer is what I use. It will work with 2.7 and probably 2.6 but as the temp gets cold the gun likes to short cycle. The 52 is very sensitive to follow through. You must maintain consistent grip throughout the recoil to keep the projectile stable in flight. If you limp wrist it or attempt to stab and reset the trigger during recoil you will end up with rectangle holes in paper. .38 caliber x .58 caliber.

I like shooting my 52 but recognize I am more accurate with the 1911 in .45.

But it is all fun and practice until the bullseye start shooting back

[jglenn]

Dan has it


I do use 45-45-10 instead of LLA.. I find it works just as well and dries a bit harder..

All my HBWC get re-coated with it

[Jon Eulette]

Clarence is right about the bullet tipping. There's a guy at my local monthly match that 100% of all his shots at both distances are tipped. 52 is known for tipping but the hbwc is your best bet to get better groups.
Jon

[Jerry Keefer]

I stated this on the "other" bullseye forum, so I'll see what, and how much havoc it creates here.. The tipping or yaw is caused by the ridiculously slow 18.75 twist barrel..The bore is too tight, as with all S&W barrels, but that is not the cause of the yaw.
Change to 10 or 12 twist .357 bore and you will see an incredible difference in accuracy, with no yaw marks on the target paper. If the bullet is not spinning on its axis, it is not stable and its not as accurate as one that does.
Reloading with standard off the shelf dies can be hit or miss.. The case expansion pin is often not correct for HBWCs .. It does not go deep enough into the case, and or does not expand to the proper size, to prevent reducing bullet OD. Custom ground pins can solve the problem and tighten groups.

[Sa-tevo]

Jerry, you got my attention.

What do you recommend for a HBWC expander dimensions? I recently had one made for my Dillon Square Deal B that would expand the whole length of the HBWC with a Lyman M die profile and a .357" OD for the main part. Hornady One Shot case lube is required to keep everything running smoothly due to the length of the expander. I use Magnus swaged bullets but get a little bit of leading at the start of the rifling with my first batch sized with 38 spl sizing die and also with factory Zero 148 HBWC cartridges.

Since all of my S&W 38's (M52-2, M64-3, M586-3) have large chambers I am going to try sizing the brass with a 38 Super sizing die. I've had ammo that wouldn't go into my Colt revolvers fit easily in a S&W.

I've seen tipping indications with my 586 at 50 yards as well as my 52.

[Rover]

From what I've seen shooting a 52 and S&W14, they have different bore dimensions and you also have to watch the cylinder throats on the revolvers.

I've seen tipping caused be an inconsistent hold.

I hope Jerry has more to say.

[Jerry Keefer]

From what I've seen shooting a 52 and S&W14, they have different bore dimensions and you also have to watch the cylinder throats on the revolvers.

I've seen tipping caused be an inconsistent hold.

I hope Jerry has more to say.

Hello Rover
For years, as far back as when I was a tyro.. Now that goes back quite a while..:):) The 52 and 38 in general was blamed for follow thru errors.. But, if we compare the projectile barrel time, between the 38 and 45 , the difference is micro to none. So creating a yaw condition by human manipulation is not possible. S&W dropped the ball on their competitive guns.. 18.75 twist is far to slow and is the major reason, but not the only reason, the 52 did not do well in bullseye.. Jimmie Clark was a pioneer in the 38 1911 field, and went to 10/12 twist barrels back in the 1950s..Al Marvel has been preparing a history of sorts and was kind enough to give me a copy of the 38 spl chapter, where he talks about Jimmie and the other smiths involved with the early development the 38spl in bullseye shooting. Then we have the PPC game, in which I was heavily involved for many years.... I don't know a soul that went to the line with anything slower than 14 twist..And that was AFTER Shilen stopped offering the 10 twist in 38. 10 and 12 twist produced the best groups to date..

[Jerry Keefer]

Jerry, you got my attention.

What do you recommend for a HBWC expander dimensions? I recently had one made for my Dillon Square Deal B that would expand the whole length of the HBWC with a Lyman M die profile and a .357" OD for the main part. Hornady One Shot case lube is required to keep everything running smoothly due to the length of the expander. I use Magnus swaged bullets but get a little bit of leading at the start of the rifling with my first batch sized with 38 spl sizing die and also with factory Zero 148 HBWC cartridges.

Since all of my S&W 38's (M52-2, M64-3, M586-3) have large chambers I am going to try sizing the brass with a 38 Super sizing die. I've had ammo that wouldn't go into my Colt revolvers fit easily in a S&W.

I've seen tipping indications with my 586 at 50 yards as well as my 52.

Well, I think the punch dimensions depend on several factors.. I grind the punches on a trial and error basis.. I grind the expansion portion .625 in length, which is the basic length of the HBWC. Then I relieve the bottom portion approx. .090 in length to build in enough restriction, that the bullet does not fall deeper into the case than it needs to be. The diameter is based on the bullet I am using.. I want to insert the bullet into the case with finger pressure..The .090 relief stops it just short of seating.. Presently, I silver solder the punches in to adjustable die. If I need to change it, I can remove it and try another approach.. So far it's working great with the bullets I am using.

[Sa-tevo]

Weird. When testing and tuning today (I used to be a race mechanic) I saw tipping at 25 yards but not 50 yards with my 586. 52 and 64 no tipping.

Shooting Magnus 148gr swaged HBWC over 2.7gr WST and Winchester Small Pistol Primers in Winchester regular 38 special brass.

[Mike M.]

Jerry's comments track with what's been seen with the .32 wadcutters. Everybody has been using twist rates suitable for a RNL or SWC bullet, not a true wadcutter. It would be interesting to see what a Model 52 could do with a 1:10 barrel.

[Jerry Keefer]

Jerry's comments track with what's been seen with the .32 wadcutters. Everybody has been using twist rates suitable for a RNL or SWC bullet, not a true wadcutter. It would be interesting to see what a Model 52 could do with a 1:10 barrel.

I have a 52 and a 1911 operating with a 14 twist barrels for the passed season..Both are shooting fantastic.. I finished a 10 twist for the 52 and a 12 twist for the 45 late this spring, spring, but had a health set back, and wasn't able to get them out and running for 2016.. Back on my feet and hope to finish up in the very near future, and tuned for 2017..

[Christopher Miceli]

Jerry's comments track with what's been seen with the .32 wadcutters. Everybody has been using twist rates suitable for a RNL or SWC bullet, not a true wadcutter. It would be interesting to see what a Model 52 could do with a 1:10 barrel.

I have a 52 and a 1911 operating with a 14 twist barrels for the passed season..Both are shooting fantastic.. I finished a 10 twist for the 52 and a 12 twist for the 45 late this spring, spring, but had a health set back, and wasn't able to get them out and running for 2016.. Back on my feet and hope to finish up in the very near future, and tuned for 2017..

good to hear your all well, can't wait to see what those barrels will do.

[Jerry Keefer]

Jerry, you got my attention.
I use Magnus swaged bullets but get a little bit of leading at the start of the rifling with my first batch sized with 38 spl sizing die and also with factory Zero 148 HBWC cartridges.

One thing I have found, is that keeping my chamber length short, as on the minimum, and using a very gentle leade angle, less than a degree, reduces the transfer of lead to the bore. Wash your bullets, I don't care who makes them, there is manufacturing flash, free lead particles that quickly melt in the flame front and the vaporized lead adheres to the cooler barrel surface quickly and easily. You're be surprised at the amount lead particles left in the bucket after a vigorous wash and rinse..

[ser2711]

I see than the 14" twist barrel is more accurate than the original on S&W 52 .38 WC..Who made this barrel.. ?

[Jerry Keefer]

I see than the 14" twist barrel is more accurate than the original on S&W 52 .38 WC..Who made this barrel.. ?

I did.. Any good machinist should be able to machine one from a Match blank.
The factory barrel has some issues.. The upper lug groove is merely a 360 degree clearance groove,, which may or may not make contact at 12 oclock.. The worst place to lock up.... Have it machined to the ID radius of the slide, so it locks up the same as a 1911. Add material to the lower lug sides and lock up area to get the best fit possible. Throw away the flimsy front bushing. remove the little indent pin and spring. Have a bushing made as large as possible that screws all the way in tight against the front of the slide.. Utilize all the existing thread depth and have the threads cut to exhibit some drag as it is screwed in..You'll see a big difference..