Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
I am looking for advice on how to outfit my 13 year old daughter with air rifle shooting gear. Background is this is her second year shooting with our local 4H shooting club. Last year she fell in love with the sport. She shot at our 4H State event last year and placed 3rd in Air Sport Rifle. She wants to shoot all the time and has even talked about looking for colleges that has shooting programs. I think she would eventually enjoy Air Rifle target but out local club does not have anyone who knows anything about it nor do we have the equipment. I was thinking about investing in an air rifle for her to start with, but really have no idea where to start. If anyone has any suggestions on what rifle to start with I would appreciate any direction. She currently shoots a club Daisy Avanti rifle but it from what I can tell, they quit making this gun. Any recommendations on how to get more involved with this sport would also be appreciated.
My son is new to shooting sports as well. You will find a ton of information hunting a round on this site. One pace I found a lot of useful is www.vc4hss.com/ The coach there post here on target talk and is always helpful.
Perry, thanks for the compliment ... I can only hope I'm helpful.
Plthomp24 ... If your daughter is in 4-H and will only shoot 4-H then the sporter rifle is the way to go ... you should be able to get discounts of the rifle that will keep it under $500-550. Or even a used sporter many times found in the Buy & Sell area on this forum can be had for a bit cheaper.
She cannot use specialized shoot jackets or pants or boots in this type of rifle
If she is interested in Collegiate or "Olympic style", then you are looking a pretty big increase in investment on your part since you don't have the area knowledge or guns that may be loaned to you.
First investment, in any case, is you. While she comes up to speed on the positions in sporter, you should find and take (as a minimum) the NRA/CMP/USAS Levl-1 coach class. Many of us 4-H coaches who come into this as complete novices begin our learning here. Hop over to the NRA website and see where a class is ... again, it's gonna be an investment on your part.
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... chools.asp
Make no mistake, 4-H does not endorse this (NIH) and you'll just have to take what you learn where they will continue to be mostly clueless. (Last sentence is purely my own opinion)
While 13 is not too young to begin the Olympic or International style, I really like to get the sporter shooters squared away before bringing them into it ... once they begin to shoot about 515 (out of 600 in a 3-P event). The shooting coat & pants in the International style can hide many position defects for us part time/volunteer coaches. Getting them good positions while shooting sporter helps I think.
Costs for an International style setup are (kinda low side ... no custom & used where you can)
Rifle - 1500 used, low new $2200
Jacket - $150
Pants - $150
Boots - $90
We have a shooter now who continues to fire sporter rifle (at least thru this summer as he qualified for the American Legion National Championship), but occasionally will put on the precision gear and use his sporter gun. He qualified for the National JO championships this way. Note he is a VERY accomplished sporter shooter (broke the CMP National 4-H 3x10 record this weekend). He is easily ready to move on to the Precision (Olympic) gun, but will wait a few more months. Nothing wrong with that as when he gets to the P-gun, I expect great things. His mom is his primary coach and got her Level-1 last year ... I really endorse that program.
When you go to International, might as well go smallbore rifle too ... many places to get used but plan for $2000 minimum
Start checking into the Junior Olympic Qualifiers in your state ... if you do not have them, add another job to your resume ... that of Match director.
Plthomp24 ... If your daughter is in 4-H and will only shoot 4-H then the sporter rifle is the way to go ... you should be able to get discounts of the rifle that will keep it under $500-550. Or even a used sporter many times found in the Buy & Sell area on this forum can be had for a bit cheaper.
She cannot use specialized shoot jackets or pants or boots in this type of rifle
If she is interested in Collegiate or "Olympic style", then you are looking a pretty big increase in investment on your part since you don't have the area knowledge or guns that may be loaned to you.
First investment, in any case, is you. While she comes up to speed on the positions in sporter, you should find and take (as a minimum) the NRA/CMP/USAS Levl-1 coach class. Many of us 4-H coaches who come into this as complete novices begin our learning here. Hop over to the NRA website and see where a class is ... again, it's gonna be an investment on your part.
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... chools.asp
Make no mistake, 4-H does not endorse this (NIH) and you'll just have to take what you learn where they will continue to be mostly clueless. (Last sentence is purely my own opinion)
While 13 is not too young to begin the Olympic or International style, I really like to get the sporter shooters squared away before bringing them into it ... once they begin to shoot about 515 (out of 600 in a 3-P event). The shooting coat & pants in the International style can hide many position defects for us part time/volunteer coaches. Getting them good positions while shooting sporter helps I think.
Costs for an International style setup are (kinda low side ... no custom & used where you can)
Rifle - 1500 used, low new $2200
Jacket - $150
Pants - $150
Boots - $90
We have a shooter now who continues to fire sporter rifle (at least thru this summer as he qualified for the American Legion National Championship), but occasionally will put on the precision gear and use his sporter gun. He qualified for the National JO championships this way. Note he is a VERY accomplished sporter shooter (broke the CMP National 4-H 3x10 record this weekend). He is easily ready to move on to the Precision (Olympic) gun, but will wait a few more months. Nothing wrong with that as when he gets to the P-gun, I expect great things. His mom is his primary coach and got her Level-1 last year ... I really endorse that program.
When you go to International, might as well go smallbore rifle too ... many places to get used but plan for $2000 minimum
Start checking into the Junior Olympic Qualifiers in your state ... if you do not have them, add another job to your resume ... that of Match director.
Everyone, thank you very much for all of the information in the last few posts. I will defiantly look into the NRA/CMP/USAS Levl-1 coach class. I have taken up the reigns as one of 3 coaches for our county’s 4H rifle program so any information I can gleam from good resources I am happy to take them.
I have looked through the CMP and NRA web sites, and from what I can tell Kentucky does not hold any competitions, which seems really odd, since Murray State University and University of Kentucky both have rifle teams. I am thinking about attending one of the matches that is somewhat close just to see how other shooters preform and what the how the match is ran.
If you were looking for a good 3P rifle, what would you recommend? We can’t keep the club gun since we have a lot more shooters than we have rifles so I was thinking about investing in one for her. She really likes the way the Daisy Avanti PCP style rifle shoots and feels, but I understand that they stopped manufacturing this rifle. Anything that would look and feel like this would be a great place to start.
Again, I can’t think you enough for the information so far.
Plthomp24
I have looked through the CMP and NRA web sites, and from what I can tell Kentucky does not hold any competitions, which seems really odd, since Murray State University and University of Kentucky both have rifle teams. I am thinking about attending one of the matches that is somewhat close just to see how other shooters preform and what the how the match is ran.
If you were looking for a good 3P rifle, what would you recommend? We can’t keep the club gun since we have a lot more shooters than we have rifles so I was thinking about investing in one for her. She really likes the way the Daisy Avanti PCP style rifle shoots and feels, but I understand that they stopped manufacturing this rifle. Anything that would look and feel like this would be a great place to start.
Again, I can’t think you enough for the information so far.
Plthomp24
The "new" XSV-40 is the Air Arms T-200 ... the same action & BBL, but a different stock ... its a bit longer than the XSV-40.
In the other post JustaDude mentioned Joe Tinsley ... a great guy, but he was having some health issues. His sidekick was Eric Burnett, but he was drifting to the dark side (pistol).
For clubs check this CMP web page out .... may be somewhat out of date, but still a good place to at least ask those on the list
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/clubSear ... N&state=KY
Another way to try is to go the the American legion results on CMP and look for Kentucky shooters and contact those American Legion posts.
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_e ... &awardID=5
In the other post JustaDude mentioned Joe Tinsley ... a great guy, but he was having some health issues. His sidekick was Eric Burnett, but he was drifting to the dark side (pistol).
For clubs check this CMP web page out .... may be somewhat out of date, but still a good place to at least ask those on the list
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/clubSear ... N&state=KY
Another way to try is to go the the American legion results on CMP and look for Kentucky shooters and contact those American Legion posts.
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_e ... &awardID=5
The comments from jhmartin is sage advice. My son started three years ago in 4H shooting air rifle. After the second year and rapidly improving scores I decided to buy him his own rifle as he had to share one of the club rifles and I found out the hard way the sights can be sensitive. I spent several months researching shooting techniques, guns, pellets and all the accessories. I was prepared to purchase a precision air rifle but I had concerns some competitions would not allow their use for sporter class and I did not want to limit his opportunities. The other determining factor was most of the better rifles were more accurate than most shooters could take advantage of. That said I quickly eliminated springers/pumps and CO2 guns as most of the information I had gathered pointed to the PCP as the most consistant. I ended up choosing the Air Arms T200 mainly because I got a precision barrel with a very simple stock. I figured with a non adjustable stock he is more likely to get the basics down firm without having to rely on adjustments. As it turned out the gun was a perfect fit. Very compact light and a jewel to shoot especially for a junior shooter. I love shooting the gun myself and I am 6-2.plthomp24 wrote:Everyone, thank you very much for all of the information in the last few posts. I will defiantly look into the NRA/CMP/USAS Levl-1 coach class. I have taken up the reigns as one of 3 coaches for our county’s 4H rifle program so any information I can gleam from good resources I am happy to take them.
I have looked through the CMP and NRA web sites, and from what I can tell Kentucky does not hold any competitions, which seems really odd, since Murray State University and University of Kentucky both have rifle teams. I am thinking about attending one of the matches that is somewhat close just to see how other shooters preform and what the how the match is ran.
If you were looking for a good 3P rifle, what would you recommend? We can’t keep the club gun since we have a lot more shooters than we have rifles so I was thinking about investing in one for her. She really likes the way the Daisy Avanti PCP style rifle shoots and feels, but I understand that they stopped manufacturing this rifle. Anything that would look and feel like this would be a great place to start.
Again, I can’t think you enough for the information so far.
Plthomp24
One other piece of advise whatever gun you choose the type of pellet absolutely makes a difference in the accuracy of the gun. I bought a pellet sampler and was astonished at the difference it made when I found a pellet the gun likes.
Good luck with whatever you choose in the end.
Another $0.02 opinion.....
If you do purchase the Air Arms T200, it comes with the cheapest sights available .... the Air Venturi $30 pieces of junk ... the Chinese sights we all complain about. I got 2 T-200's last year and the sights were >>literally<< falling apart upon arrival ... Since these were NRA Foundation grant guns I could not return them to the vendor.
Do your daughter a favor and also order a Crosman Diopter set from Pyramid Air ... they are $99 and just put the el cheapos away for a spare set.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_P ... _Sight/608
(Note: Finally got this year's grant $$ to replace the non-working sights ....ordered them yesterday from Pyramid Air)
If you do purchase the Air Arms T200, it comes with the cheapest sights available .... the Air Venturi $30 pieces of junk ... the Chinese sights we all complain about. I got 2 T-200's last year and the sights were >>literally<< falling apart upon arrival ... Since these were NRA Foundation grant guns I could not return them to the vendor.
Do your daughter a favor and also order a Crosman Diopter set from Pyramid Air ... they are $99 and just put the el cheapos away for a spare set.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_P ... _Sight/608
(Note: Finally got this year's grant $$ to replace the non-working sights ....ordered them yesterday from Pyramid Air)
Yep I already replaced mine with Air Force rear sights, made a huge difference. The Air Venturi sights were not cast correcty and were canted to the left. The peep disk hole was also drilled off center. Talk about lack of quality control.jhmartin wrote:Another $0.02 opinion.....
If you do purchase the Air Arms T200, it comes with the cheapest sights available .... the Air Venturi $30 pieces of junk ... the Chinese sights we all complain about. I got 2 T-200's last year and the sights were >>literally<< falling apart upon arrival ... Since these were NRA Foundation grant guns I could not return them to the vendor.
Do your daughter a favor and also order a Crosman Diopter set from Pyramid Air ... they are $99 and just put the el cheapos away for a spare set.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_P ... _Sight/608
(Note: Finally got this year's grant $$ to replace the non-working sights ....ordered them yesterday from Pyramid Air)
Remember Zoomie, if you are using the rifle in sporter competitions, the Air Force sight is only authorized on the Edge rifle ... not on the T200 or the Daisys.Zoomies wrote:Yep I already replaced mine with Air Force rear sights, made a huge difference. The Air Venturi sights were not cast correcty and were canted to the left. The peep disk hole was also drilled off center. Talk about lack of quality control.
(I wish CMP would fix this and maybe the National Council will at their meeting this year ... hint, hint for all those that read these posts)
Yes, I have a backup sight just in case anyone makes a fuss. Most of the shoots my son participates in have not been an issue. As far as I can tell know one takes a really close look at the guns.jhmartin wrote:Remember Zoomie, if you are using the rifle in sporter competitions, the Air Force sight is only authorized on the Edge rifle ... not on the T200 or the Daisys.Zoomies wrote:Yep I already replaced mine with Air Force rear sights, made a huge difference. The Air Venturi sights were not cast correcty and were canted to the left. The peep disk hole was also drilled off center. Talk about lack of quality control.
(I wish CMP would fix this and maybe the National Council will at their meeting this year ... hint, hint for all those that read these posts)
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Did Air Force ever get the accuracy problem with the Edge figured out?
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
I would look at gun clubs in your area. Many clubs run junior rifle programs, but some clubs are more competitive motivated then others, ask around. Most include smallbore (.22) and air rifle. Generally, most junior clubs will have equipment for you to use, including rifles. Also they usually have juniors competing in matches that can pass along first hand information. They may have more experienced coaches also. Once you get into this addicting sport, air is just not enough. The NSSF has a page for finding clubs in your area. http://wheretoshoot.org/index2.cfm For a quick run down on the sanction bodies, USA Shooting and the NRA have both smallbore and air rifle matches, while the CMP only has air rifle matches. This is all based on three-postion shooting, such as in college or the Olympics. Good luck and good shooting.
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Joel - your hint hint for those who read the posts - maybe the 4H rep on the National Council doesn't read them. Might want to send him/her your recommendations for rules changes.
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Conrad Arnold and I have corresponded for many years.
National really cannot tell the States what to do, just as the States cannot direct the Districts and Counties (at least here in NM). A good example is the selection procedures for Nationals ... they are (pun intended) all over the map.
I don't know if Rick Richardson is still on the Nat'l Committee, he retired last year from NMSU and while I saw him last weekend, he was coaching his daughter. Rick and I go way back, and he was instrumental in getting NM State contest following the National rules.
Of course we've had our differences, but it is/was always enjoyable working with them.
National really cannot tell the States what to do, just as the States cannot direct the Districts and Counties (at least here in NM). A good example is the selection procedures for Nationals ... they are (pun intended) all over the map.
I don't know if Rick Richardson is still on the Nat'l Committee, he retired last year from NMSU and while I saw him last weekend, he was coaching his daughter. Rick and I go way back, and he was instrumental in getting NM State contest following the National rules.
Of course we've had our differences, but it is/was always enjoyable working with them.
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
I could be mistaken, but the CZ T200 that I just purchased from Champions Choice appears to be even closer to the Daisy Avanti PCP then the Air Arms T200. The stock is two piece and has an adjustable cheek piece like the Avanti had, (and I REALLY like being able to adjust the stock).
One "downside" is it is limited to 7 joules whereas the Air Arms one can be dialed up higher than that. As I am not planning on shooting farther than 10m this doesn't bother me, but it may be a concern for you.
The gun appears to me to be quite well made, however the sights are "rudimentary" at best. (They appear to be the same as the target sights that I got with my Daisy 953.) As my shooting ability is "sub rudimentary" to date, the sights are fine. (It's not the sights that are "making" me hit the 3 ring about 15% of the time offhand, and benched the sights do fine.) Again, YMMV.
I will say that my Daisy 953 with the Lothar barrel upgrade was a lot less pellet fussy than my CZ T200, but, if I stick with the RMS "Meisterfarfenugans" or whatever they are called, the CZ T200 shoots WAY better than I can, and the trigger is SO MUCH nicer than my modified 753/853/953 trigger.
Someone please correct me if I wrong about this, but I do think the gun is pretty much the old Avanti PCP.
Peter T
One "downside" is it is limited to 7 joules whereas the Air Arms one can be dialed up higher than that. As I am not planning on shooting farther than 10m this doesn't bother me, but it may be a concern for you.
The gun appears to me to be quite well made, however the sights are "rudimentary" at best. (They appear to be the same as the target sights that I got with my Daisy 953.) As my shooting ability is "sub rudimentary" to date, the sights are fine. (It's not the sights that are "making" me hit the 3 ring about 15% of the time offhand, and benched the sights do fine.) Again, YMMV.
I will say that my Daisy 953 with the Lothar barrel upgrade was a lot less pellet fussy than my CZ T200, but, if I stick with the RMS "Meisterfarfenugans" or whatever they are called, the CZ T200 shoots WAY better than I can, and the trigger is SO MUCH nicer than my modified 753/853/953 trigger.
Someone please correct me if I wrong about this, but I do think the gun is pretty much the old Avanti PCP.
Peter T
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
CZ made them for Daisy back then .... so yes you are correct
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Champions Choice also carries the Crosman/T200 sights for $80. I bought a couple sets for use on savage .22s. They are the same sight as on the Crosman PCP. Which by the way is also quite a good sporter rifle. It's a little larger stock with adjustable comb/lop. I have both X40's and Crosman 2009's and they are both good sporter guns and their sights are not the Chinese junk.
Just my $.02, if your daughter is going to stick with 4H shooting as her main source of competition, I would stick with sporter until she competes at 4H Nationals if that is in her plans. It's quite difficult to shoot a precision gun for several years (if you state allows for 4H competitions, MN does) and then go back to a sporter with 3lbs less weight at Nationals.
Just my $.02, if your daughter is going to stick with 4H shooting as her main source of competition, I would stick with sporter until she competes at 4H Nationals if that is in her plans. It's quite difficult to shoot a precision gun for several years (if you state allows for 4H competitions, MN does) and then go back to a sporter with 3lbs less weight at Nationals.
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
I wouldn't worry about staying in sporter - there aren't any matches for it to speak of anyway. Other than Camp Perry, there are basically no Sporter matches in OH, KY or IN.
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redschietti
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Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
Shelby county jr rifle club (ky) has produced at least a couple top shooters.
Re: Need recommendations on outfitting a new shooter
I would agree we have that same problem out west, so the shooters we get move right into precision.Barry wrote:I wouldn't worry about staying in sporter - there aren't any matches for it to speak of anyway. Other than Camp Perry, there are basically no Sporter matches in OH, KY or IN.