Coaching Advice Needed - New Rifles

[Barry]

Our team was shooting Daisy 887 CO2 rifles and we just got new CZ T-200 PCP rifles.

Whether or not those rifles are better is irrelevant; you know everyone is going to want the new rifles. But, there aren't enough for everyone.

I encourage the kids to use the same rifle every time.

How would you handle the distribution?

[nglitz]

Have a shootoff? Maybe most improved vs. high score.

Attendance record. Kind of a dedication thing.

If not by merit, then just a random drawing.

I understand the use-the-same-rifle idea. Maybe rotate through for a few weeks to see who can utilize the new rifles better?

[RED RAIDER]

I would make all new shooters use the CO2 guns. Let the more experienced shooters use the T200.

[Barry]

The only reason I'm torn is because the t-200 is actually lighter than the Avanti and we have some kids that can't handle the Avanti real well. But I don't want to give my better shooters the lesser guns either.

I think I'll go ahead with the shootoff. The smaller kids will lose.

[jhmartin]

We use the T200/XSV-40 types for our smaller/younger shooters.
I personally think the 888/887s are more accurate anyway and they go to our more experienced youth ... our precision guns ... Anschutz's go to those who look like they will put in the work/effort/time.

[Barry]

You may be right about the Avanti's being more accurate, but we've been bit too many times by freeze ups, low pressure dropping elevation, and problems with cylinders that I've had it with the CO2.

I was sitting in the car the other day with some freshly charged cylinders when one of them spontaneously discharged. Really startled me!

[jhmartin]

If you have the cylinders in the car with the heater blowing on them, that can happen if you have overfilled them. That is the express purpose of the burst disk.
Fill by weight only.
Fill to a max of 480 grams, I prefer a 475gram "full charge". With 475 you can EASILY shoot 2 full 3x20 matches.
Anything over 485 and a temp higher than about 95°F and you are just asking for the burst disk to let go.

[Chris__Colorado]

Here are some great charts that relate CO2 pressure, temperature, and state of matter.
Note that the horizontal scale is based upon rated fill of the tank. You can easily overfill a tank (dangerous to do).

They are a handy reference and can help explain why we shouldn't fill to overfill to 100% of available volume (100% of max full weight is generally ok most of the time).
Most CO2 valves are pretty self regulating over normal range of indoor "comfortable" shooting temperatures...
Car interiors on sunny days can become dangerous....which is why it is wise to ensure that any burst disks are properly sized at 1.8kpsi (1800 psi) and not 3kpsi (3000 psi).

I seem to recall that most C02 tanks are (max fill weight equivalent) filled to about 80% of volume, but the x-ray here indicates a bit more and closer to 90%:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/mes ... ank+X-Rays!
and this website faq indicates it's a lot less (closer to 35% of available volume!)
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technic ... mics.shtml

so, I just fill mine to the stamped "full" weight...and if I should overfill, I drain the tank until I reach the Max fill weight--no matter how tempting it is to not drain the excess...My steel FWB Model 2 cylinders (circa 1983-84) work well to this day...and the FWB "new" one wasn't much newer, just laser engraved with a date about 3 years ago...pleasantly amazed that FWB still provides support to such an antique!

Chris

Back on target: Best advice to your answer is here by jhmartin:
"We use the T200/XSV-40 types for our smaller/younger shooters.
I personally think the 888/887s are more accurate anyway and they go to our more experienced youth ... our precision guns ... Anschutz's go to those who look like they will put in the work/effort/time."

I read that as "coach decides" based upon his own criteria ( what fits the shooters best, weight, balance, shooter dedication, worth ethic, etc.)
Would love to see someone's decision logic on this (what factors do you consider?)

[jhmartin]

Back on target: Best advice to your answer is here by jhmartin:
"We use the T200/XSV-40 types for our smaller/younger shooters.
I personally think the 888/887s are more accurate anyway and they go to our more experienced youth ... our precision guns ... Anschutz's go to those who look like they will put in the work/effort/time."

I read that as "coach decides" based upon his own criteria ( what fits the shooters best, weight, balance, shooter dedication, worth ethic, etc.)
Would love to see someone's decision logic on this (what factors do you consider?)

By younger shooters, I mean 8-10, maybe 11 years of age ... even the 888 is too long without chopping about 2" off the stock length and then becomes too muzzle heavy for the youngsters.
The regular 888/887 are shot by those about 12 years +.
And yes ... the few precision guns we have go to the kids that we as coaches decide are putting in the effort to begin to transition them to International style. Normally this is sort of score based. When they can fire a 500 to about 520 in 3-P air sporter, we think about moving them to International air and smallbore 3-P.

[throttleup]

We recently traded our Daisy 753's for 887's. So far, love them except the triggers. Some shooters are considering going to PCP and the Air Arms T200 Sporter. Do you know if this is the same gun as the CZ T200 PCP gun? If so are the 887's really more accurate? That might change a few minds. Thanks.

[jhmartin]

We recently traded our Daisy 753's for 887's. So far, love them except the triggers.

Well, so true, but you can replace the sear set screws behind the trigger guard with longer 6-32 versions to adjust the trigger pull. Some even go in and smooth/polish the surfaces. yeah the trigger is not the best of the sporters, but remember, the Daisy's are the least expensive of them.

Some shooters are considering going to PCP and the Air Arms T200 Sporter. Do you know if this is the same gun as the CZ T200 PCP gun?

The air Arms T200 and the CZ T200 are in the same series of guns ... a collaborative effort if you may. These guns came out of the Daisy/CZ XSV-40 rifle ... I consider them all the same basic rifle, just different stocks. There may be other slight differences, but the basic mechanics of them all are the same.

If so are the 887's really more accurate? That might change a few minds. Thanks.

You know I clamped our XSV40's and 888/887's in a vice years ago and I found that with the lower cost pellets the 888/887s were more accurate in terms of the groupings. Remember though, the trigger "takes away" some of that. At the time that I was really getting kids into 3-P air the Daisy's had the advantage in the national matches, but I know the American Legion was won one year by a 15or16 year old with an XSV-40.
These are sporter guns that all have their advantages and disadvantages. They are not going to equal the "precision" international style rifles once the shooters have to use them in competitions.

My selection of the lighter/smaller XSV-40s & T200s for our younger shooters is only that they are able to handle them better ... as they grow older & stronger we move them to the 888/887s to free up those rifles for the new younger shooters ... that decision really has nothing to do with accuracy, but with which guns are available for the different kids. If/when they get a bit bored with the sporter game and want to move on, then we start them into the precision rifles we have available.

It's pretty much the same for our smallbore guns ... the lighter ones (CM-2s) go to the smaller shooters and then as they progress we borrow 1912's for them to use ... or they are into it enough that they are acquiring their own rifles.

[throttleup]

jhmartin

Thanks for that info. You seem to know more about these guns than anyone else I have talked to. I think we are going to seriously look at cleaning up these triggers before we look at other guns. We bought a 25 lb bulk CO2 tank and everyone has two or three extra cylinders. I'd hate to give up the convenience and safety of CO2 for a high pressure scuba tank, not to mention getting around 300 shots per fill. Thanks again.

[jhmartin]

Well, I think that there are quite a few out there that have played with these guns and have learned how to bring out the best .... in both the shooters and rifles.

We're not giving ours up anytime soon, in fact after our shooting season winds down, I'm going to send about 6 back to Daisy for a refurb. Our kids like them and they tend to shoot well with them.

[Barry]

Chris,
I'll be sure to show those charts to the monkeys that fill our cylinders at the paintball shop. :)
It's funny, when the cylinder let loose, it don't blow out the safety valve, it blew out through the discharge valve. Just a bad cylinder I guess. If it's the one I think it was, it won't hold pressure anymore either.

Liking the T-200 so far. I'll have to figure out the trigger adjustments. They feel like they have 3 stages right now. The Daisey's were much better out of the box. Heavier, but smoother and felt less like plastic against plastic.

[Barry]

We have one 887 being used right now. Last week, I put a full cylinder in it and the kid shot about 20 rounds. This week, he shot about 15 rounds and it started losing velocity and dropping shots out the bottom. So, I put a full cylinder in it. That didn't work, so we gave him a different gun with a full cylinder in it. That didn't work in it either, so I gave him yet another gun. That one worked. We can't afford attrition like this. Especially not when shooting a match.

[jhmartin]

We have one 887 being used right now. Last week, I put a full cylinder in it and the kid shot about 20 rounds. This week, he shot about 15 rounds and it started losing velocity and dropping shots out the bottom. So, I put a full cylinder in it. That didn't work, so we gave him a different gun with a full cylinder in it. That didn't work in it either, so I gave him yet another gun. That one worked. We can't afford attrition like this. Especially not when shooting a match.

What are you considering "full". Are you weighing them?
At MAX you should have a full cylinder weigh absolutely no more than 480 grams. I fill to 475max. Any higher and as the CO2 goes critical there is too much pressure to operate the valve. Bleed off the CO2 if the weight is too high.
If you are not filling with a scale you'll never get it right.
The only time I've ever had issues as you describe is with a really overfilled cylinder with the guns out in direct sunlight ... and yes it was one of our first matches (in 2006) ... At room temp you should have no more than a 475 gram cylinder. If you are outside in the sun, keep the gun covered to keep the sun off the cylinder except when shooting.
Also, be very careful with the type of oil you use to lube the o-rings. The best I've found is this stuff --- Mp-5
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Ventu ... ic_4oz/612

If you have the correct weight of cylinder and you are getting that, you should send it to Daisy for a repair ... if it's fairly new it's under warranty.