Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true

Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H

Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

In the four graphs I summarized the evolution of the Free and Air pistol scores shot at Olympic games. In Free pistol only qualification scores are included: that of the champion and of the whole top 8 scorers (the average and the median). In Air, the space permitting, I also included the scores of the silver and bronze medalists for each games.

It appears that while Air pistol scores are more or less stable, the Free pistol scores are in some decline. With the exception of the not very representative 1984 Olympics boycotted by many in the Soviet block, the Free pistol appeared to be on the rise until late 90s when a slow decline started. Given that overall trend, it is even more amazing that Jin Jongoh was able to break the 1980 world record: his 583 score came rather unexpectedly, as the man himself was not known to shoot such high scores and only once before shot 575. But the rest of the field is lagging behind. In air pistol the situation appears to be much better.
Attachments
Free_champions.JPG
Air_top3.JPG
Free_top8.JPG
Free_top8.JPG (34.16 KiB) Viewed 2673 times
Air_top8.JPG
Air_top8.JPG (34.33 KiB) Viewed 2673 times
User avatar
renzo
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Contact:

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by renzo »

Interesting graphs, but even as I was aware of the decline and plateau of FP scores, I couldn't trace a single cause or sequence of causes for it.

Do you have any theory of your own?
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

I know that the former Melentiev's coach, Anatoliy Piddubniy, has a rather strong opinion, expressed in Russian, in part blaming Morini pistols for the decline:

"Concerning my beloved free pistol [discipline] -- the results really dropped... No need to walk far for an example -- the result 559 was sufficient to make it into the final of the European Championship in 2007. There are many reasons, of course. I think the principal one is the drop in the quality of coaching work... The second reason is the departure of Khaidurov's pistol, TOZ-35, from the scene. This is my subjective opinion, but Morini pistols, which captured the market, became the impediment of the free pistol... Morini is good for shooters with a good hold and a perfect trigger technique, but such shooters shoot well from any "stick." TOZ-35, for some reasons I still do not understand, forgives small errors, something one would not get from Morini."
http://www.shooting-ua.com/books/book_45.htm
(in Russian)
User avatar
renzo
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Contact:

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by renzo »

Quite a knowleadgeable opinion, for sure, but I'd bet my last nickel that if shooting a TOZ-35 could guarantee the forgiveness of the odd ill-executed shot, everybody would still be using them.

Point of fact, It's not that you can't find NIB TOZ if you search for them (as undoubtedly any top-notch shooter would do if its advantages were so well defined). You could buy three of them and have spare parts for the rest of your life for the price of a handful of bricks of Tenex, whichi is of no consequence at such levels of performance.

I could point to the fact that in the 70's the time allotted for the match was 3 hours, and in the 80's it was 2 1/2 hours, and in 1989 it changed again to 135 minutes, to the present rules with the same time but forcibly separating sighting and score shots.

I could also say that until 1986 ankle height boots were legal in pistol shooting (I had to sell mine after the decision made at the WCH Suhl) and that stiff jackets were also legal until the early 80's (I'm not sure of the precise date). You can find a photograph of Mr. Ragnar Skanaker using such a leather outfit in the pages of his book "Pistol Shooting".

Maybe some of these factor, plus others I don't know, could influence such stabilization of the scores.

On the other hand, let's not forget how awfully hard is to get past 550 in FP, and let's suppose that simply we have reached a "ceiling" of performances. Also, we can suggest that International shooter numbers are dwindling (except maybe in China where it's fully State sponsored) and that from a reduced sportsman base is likely to surge a lesser upper crop of performers.

I'm the president of my city's shooting club, 500 members strong, and we have only three FP shooters (including myself) and we're all over 55. Younger shooters take up (if herded into International) sport pistol or even CF. The vast majority are recreatonal shooters and those who turn to compete are usually atracted by IPSC and similar courses.

My two cents
User avatar
j-team
Posts: 1381
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by j-team »

renzo wrote:
I could point to the fact that in the 70's the time allotted for the match was 3 hours, and in the 80's it was 2 1/2 hours, and in 1989 it changed again to 135 minutes, to the present rules with the same time but forcibly separating sighting and score shots.

I could also say that until 1986 ankle height boots were legal in pistol shooting (I had to sell mine after the decision made at the WCH Suhl) and that stiff jackets were also legal until the early 80's (I'm not sure of the precise date). You can find a photograph of Mr. Ragnar Skanaker using such a leather outfit in the pages of his book "Pistol Shooting".

Maybe some of these factor, plus others I don't know, could influence such stabilization of the scores.
Good points there. Add to that the improvements in drug testing.
User avatar
renzo
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Contact:

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by renzo »

j-team wrote:
renzo wrote:
I could point to the fact that in the 70's the time allotted for the match was 3 hours, and in the 80's it was 2 1/2 hours, and in 1989 it changed again to 135 minutes, to the present rules with the same time but forcibly separating sighting and score shots.

I could also say that until 1986 ankle height boots were legal in pistol shooting (I had to sell mine after the decision made at the WCH Suhl) and that stiff jackets were also legal until the early 80's (I'm not sure of the precise date). You can find a photograph of Mr. Ragnar Skanaker using such a leather outfit in the pages of his book "Pistol Shooting".

Maybe some of these factor, plus others I don't know, could influence such stabilization of the scores.
Good points there. Add to that the improvements in drug testing.
It's not the first the first time I hear such an opinion from you, and I'm in no position to argue.

I've never reached International level, and in my country drug testing was official from 1988 and on, and only at the Nationals, so I've never known of a positive case, and obviously if someone was using it he wouldn't tell.

Would you say that drug use was so widespread as to affect global scores?
BEA
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Va

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by BEA »

My guess is improved drug testing has had some effect. I do not know about the shooting qualities of the Morini FP, but a friend of mine who was a very good FP shooter, had a Morini for a while and went back to his TOZ because he found it to be much more shooter friendly.
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

renzo wrote: Point of fact, It's not that you can't find NIB TOZ if you search for them (as undoubtedly any top-notch shooter would do if its advantages were so well defined). You could buy three of them and have spare parts for the rest of your life for the price of a handful of bricks of Tenex, whichi is of no consequence at such levels of performance.
Yes, you could do all that but you would be going against some strong headwinds there as TOZ would be providing no sponsorship to you, pay you no stipends, and ensure no gunsmiths presence at competitions.
renzo wrote: I could point to the fact that in the 70's the time allotted for the match was 3 hours, and in the 80's it was 2 1/2 hours, and in 1989 it changed again to 135 minutes, to the present rules with the same time but forcibly separating sighting and score shots. I could also say that until 1986 ankle height boots were legal in pistol shooting (I had to sell mine after the decision made at the WCH Suhl) and that stiff jackets were also legal until the early 80's (I'm not sure of the precise date). You can find a photograph of Mr. Ragnar Skanaker using such a leather outfit in the pages of his book "Pistol Shooting".
Yes, but by the same token the many changes in the Rapid Fire discipline should have led to a similar decline in scores. There are no more wraparound grips allowed anymore, mild-kicking .22 Short has been replaced with .22 LR, and so on. Yet, the scores are pretty much where they used to be. The difference is, likely, in the competitive pistol development. The same competition exists between the air pistol makers. Yet, not much of the sorts happens in free pistol.
User avatar
j-team
Posts: 1381
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by j-team »

renzo wrote:
Would you say that drug use was so widespread as to affect global scores?
We would have our heads in the sand if we thought shooting was any different to virtually all other Olympic sports, especially with regard to Eastern Bloc countries and in the "cold war" era when winning an Olympic medal was more about politics that it was sport. It's a comment on the times rather than a criticism of the individuals.
Tycho
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:25 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by Tycho »

Back in the 80s, a lot of stuff was actually legal, even if frowned upon. There was quite a scandal back then when one of the top rifle shooters talked in an interview of using some kind of betablockers - they weren't prohibited, and according to him, everybody was using them on an international level. But nobody actually wanted the public to know... :-)
User avatar
conradin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Basement.

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by conradin »

I have a completely different theory: The collapse of the eastern bloc and the Soviet Union. The shooters in these communist countries were essentially professional athletes. They trained full time but also were backed up by tremendous amount of resources provided by the state. The training was completely scientific. The athletes from the rest of the world simply did not have that kind of state support resources. The reduction of the scores today simply is a reflection of a level playing field.
therider
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by therider »

Interesting graphs.
it would be interesting to see the standard deviation too.
David M
Posts: 1676
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:43 pm

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by David M »

One of the reasons is the demise of lead styphnate priming compounds and the rise of lead free primers.
This happened between the late 80's/early 90's up to the mid 2000's. I think the .22 ammo has lot a little
of its grouping ability and we are seeing a lot more ignition malfunctions and soft shots.
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

conradin wrote:I have a completely different theory: The collapse of the eastern bloc and the Soviet Union. The shooters in these communist countries were essentially professional athletes. They trained full time but also were backed up by tremendous amount of resources provided by the state. The training was completely scientific. The athletes from the rest of the world simply did not have that kind of state support resources. The reduction of the scores today simply is a reflection of a level playing field.
But this theory would predict a reduction in both the free pistol and air pistol scores, which is not what is happening.
User avatar
conradin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Basement.

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by conradin »

shaky hands wrote:
conradin wrote:I have a completely different theory: The collapse of the eastern bloc and the Soviet Union. The shooters in these communist countries were essentially professional athletes. They trained full time but also were backed up by tremendous amount of resources provided by the state. The training was completely scientific. The athletes from the rest of the world simply did not have that kind of state support resources. The reduction of the scores today simply is a reflection of a level playing field.
But this theory would predict a reduction in both the free pistol and air pistol scores, which is not what is happening.
The stability of the air pistol scores compliments the theory because by the time it became an Olympic sport the wall was about to come down (1988). Technological changes of air pistols also means it should have a slight rise.
User avatar
renzo
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Contact:

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by renzo »

I'm not so sure of what you say, because long before AP became an Olympic sport it has been established as a major point of interest amongst shooters, to the point of having separate WCH and being included in the WCH calendar since 1970 (Phoenix- USA).

You could also remember that the major sporting achievement of the actual president of the ISSF was setting a WR in AR in 1973!!!

And besides, whatever the official support the Communist bloc shooters may have had, it pales in comparison with the present (and two decades past) status of that sport in China.

Also, it may be quoted that the Gold medal winner at Berlin 1936 (Thorsten Ullmann) shot 559 with a MP-33, a record that stood 24 years until Alexei Gushkin beat it in Rome by only one point shooting a Drulov. That was 55 years ago.......... and free pistols have evolved a lot since, but those scores will guarantee those two shooters (and many in that level) an entry slot in the Finals at the London Games in 2012, 76 and 52 years later respectively!!!

In the middle, consider included in that "hypotetic" final the three medalist in every WCH and OG since WWII, who were using waht we could label as museum pieces!!!
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

conradin wrote: The stability of the air pistol scores compliments the theory because by the time it became an Olympic sport the wall was about to come down (1988). Technological changes of air pistols also means it should have a slight rise.
To add to what Renzo said, one should not discount 1988. The wall was indeed a year from coming down but that fact had absolutely no bearing on the sport infrastructure in the Soviet block. In this respect 1988 was no different from 1980 or 1972. In that year the Soviet Union took the first place in the Olympic medal count with East Germany taking second and three more Soviet block countries squeezing into the top-10. The Soviets took the Olympic hockey gold that same year. So, the 1988 was overall business as usual. Furthermore, Air pistol was already a well established event with quite a respectable world record (590) set in 1982. Yet, the 1988 scores were not too different from the world championship scores from the previous years. Overall, air pistol did not experience much drop in the 90s.
But, more importantly, whatever the role of the Soviet block collapse, it affected air and free scores rather differently.
Pistol development? Yes, here I agree. That same development which did not occur in free pistol. Precisely, Piddubniy's point. It is quite possible that the biggest hit to the free pistol scores from the Soviet Union collapse was the end of the TOZ manufacturing.
User avatar
SamEEE
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Aotearoa/NZ

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by SamEEE »

Can you please post the raw data?
Image Image
shaky hands
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by shaky hands »

I surely could. It is all pretty much copy/paste from ISSF website:
http://www.issf-sports.org/competitions/results.ashx
so I leave it to the moderators to decide whether it complies with whatever copyright rules there might be.
Attachments
Olympics_results.pdf
(937.55 KiB) Downloaded 122 times
User avatar
renzo
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Contact:

Re: Evolution of the Olympic pistol scores

Post by renzo »

Sam:

I found this webpage by pure hazard, navigating thru it you will find EVERY score shot at EVERY OG in EVERY discipline by EVERY sportman.

Will take you a while to get the knack of it, but it's very useful!!!

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympic ... etres.html
Post Reply