Rapid Fire Stabilizer/Counterweight question.

[1917-1911M]

If a weight is added to the muzzle which encircles the barrel, is the pistol still legal if the barrel does not extend flush with the end of the weight. Assuming overall length dimensions are still legal. There is no porting of the gasses up, down, etc. simply a longer stabilizer with a bore the size of the outside diameter of the barrel. Gasses would blow out the end of the counterweight. Picture a longer Pardini RF-1 stabilizer extending 1" beyond the end of the barrel. Thanks. M1911



The lower SSP type pivoting damper arm is not shown. You can see the dead space between the end of the muzzle and end of the stabilizer. That is what I am asking about regarding legality. I can find nothing on this in the rules. The angle should be 30 degrees. The stock pistol has a 15 degree grip and the hand will not be able to be moved up in as close an alignment with the bore as in the match pistols. Well, what do you expect for $300?





These mock ups have been made in Texas by WaltherForums Member Hajazimnt. 3D printing.



Five round group at a measured 25M, 5" P22 barrel with counterweights. I call that accurate enough. It fired under 1" groups with CCI Mini Mags as well. If the hammer strut is removed from the pistol it becomes a SA pistol only. However with an over travel and pre travel stop, total trigger movement is 1/8"to fire and reset.

I'm testing and designing, others are testing and making additional prototypes. The one above will have Pardini RF-1 type linear dampers and a lower pivoting arm similar to the Walther SSP design. the lower arm is not shown. Test of similar mock ups have muzzle jump down to 1/4". There is one Member who competes in 25M shooting and uses the P22, an old one. He has won bronze, silver and gold in his club against the big guns. That probably says more about his shooting ability than the pistols but for fun I'm working on and add on stabilizer/damper for this plinker. I put one of my old ones in a Ransom type rest and it will achieve under 1" 5 round groups with several types of ammo including some bulk. Flyers are the problem with the bulk. Target ammo is much more consistent but not entirely flyer free in a P22. 5" barrel.

The question is....is it legal to have the counterweight/damper extend past the end of the muzzle with just a hole in it. No porting.

[David Levene]

When it was first produced a few years ago, the ISSF were asked to comment on the similar (but less extreme) arrangement of the SSP.

Result, no problem.

Whether a pistol with that much inertia would be an advantage is another question.

[1917-1911M]

The slide on a Pardin is either 96g or 98g according to someone here. The P22 slide, breech block, firing pin, extractor, etc. is 149g so that makes a pretty big impact and the P22 cannot be held on target for the faster portions of rapid fire competition. It simply recoils too much. The grip is too vertical and the muzzle is way above the wrist. Add all of that together and you have more of a pistol that resembles a self defense firearm with regard to grip and recoil. So, what we are trying to do here is dampen the recoil and stabilize the pistol. The Pardini and other similar pistol are in the 1100g range. The stock P22 is 489g if I recall correctly so it can have quite a bit of weight added, dead and active. Rotational torque will be the largest challenge and call for a fairly heavy active damper, say, 250g or so in order to dampen the muzzle rise. Another 250g of counterweight simply makes the pistol more stable. But, at 950g to 1050g the pistol isn't heavy. It does in fact suffer from not having any match grips, a mag through the grip and no thin frame to attach match grips to.....but, I've made clay and wood grips that overcome all of that.

Another pistol fired with the barrel recessed as above did not show any diminished accuracy due to the tube on the end. Legal or not is what I need to know. Good to hear this has come up before. Thanks David. M1911

[David Levene]

Remember that a heavy weight at the front of the gun, whilst possibly helping to control recoil, also makes it more difficult to stop the gun at the end of the vertical raise, transition to horizontal movement, stop at each target and then start the gun moving again towards the next target.

[1917-1911M]

I realize we are working up hill here. I have never fired much less seen one of these match pistols. I have watched a lot of videos and can see what has been designed into the pistols to make them stable. Now to try to adapt some of these features to the P22, a decidedly non rapid fire pistol. The reason for this is one Member at several of the Forums I participate in is having very good success with his old 2002 P22. He has fired a number of the $3,000 pistols but prefers the P22. He has everything on it including the kitchen sink. Other than a couple of people it is hard to find anyone interested in helping assess what might be needed. That member sent me to this site. We are much impressed by the information here and I know the P22 is an odd bird out regarding this Forum. However, I have enjoyed learning about these pistols. I had never considered the details of what made these pistols special. I now see......every trick that has evolved over the decades for accurate and stable platforms have been incorporated into the MG2, Pardini SP-1, SSP-E, etc. Pretty dang impressive.

We are trying to keep the pistol balanced. Center of gravity 40mm in front of the trigger. We are leaving room for adjustment of the linear and rotational dampers. One advantage and the only one I can see to the heavy slide is that it knocks the muzzle back down when slamming closed. The trick now is to try to balance all of this out. There is no doubt this will require a good bit of testing and it will never be as stable as the standard pistols. But one shooter is knocking off the guys with the big dollar guns. I sent him a 1040g hammer/sear so he now has the trigger weight down there if necessary. Mostly I'm having fun and enjoying continuing to play with the pistol while I learn about what you guys shoot. I was pleased to see that the 5" barrel was as accurate as it is in a light zinc frame pistol. Another member has made a 6" barrel for the pistol so I will be interested to test that barrel and see if it is more accurate than the 5" version. Any thoughts regarding all of this will be appreciated. M1911

[rmca]

Nice work!

Let me add this:

1- Just because a shooter with a P22 is beating the competition, doesn't mean that anyone can emulate that with a P22. I bet that if he was shooting with another pistol he would still win (or come close to). This is just to say that it is the person that makes the difference. Not the gun. Most modern pistols (including plinking guns) will outshoot their human handlers. Only a few humans can claim otherwise.

2- If you are going to use the pistol to shoot standard or rapid fire, I would find a way to put an adjustable rear sight on it. With both vertical and horizontal adjustments. One that has a rear notch gap adjustment is a plus but not mandatory.

3- From what I can see in the pictures, there is nothing that appears illegal regarding ISSF rules. You can find them here: http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rule ... ebook.ashx
You are interested in pages 393 and 394. Rules 8.12 and 8.13

4- You really need to make some sort of match grip to fit the pistol. It will help a lot with the recoil and recovery. Have a look at this and try to emulate it as best as you can:
http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/acad ... istol.ashx - Rigth Hand Position

5- I won't expect the 6 inch barrel will be significantly more accurate than the one you have.

And, since you are having fun doing this, you are on the right track! Keep the pictures coming!

Hope this helps

[j-team]

I know you are set on doing all this to a P22 and that's all good if that's what you have at hand, but...

If you really want to explore what your obviously creative nature can do, I would like to see you put all these ideas into modifying a Margolin. Just a thought.

[1917-1911M]

j-team, we have looked at all of the old pistols, the old and the new target pistols. I'd like to get my hands on some of them. But, this challenge is for the P22. The Chief Engineer at Walther for their small arms and I have both suggested the shooter put his time and effort into a real ISSF pistol.....SSP-E for example. He has tried them, likes his P22. So, we are just playing around. There is no assurance what I come up with and ship to him will even work for him. We have significantly reduces muzzle jump but one problem we have encountered is that as the pistol is fired, even if the muzzle doesn't move much and even if it comes back on target quickly....the pistol wobbles back and forth in a figure 8. I attribute this to the small grip pressing onto the outer portion of the lower thumb. The recoil is not in align with the wrist and arm but slightly to the left for a right hand shooter. Only new grips will correct that in my opinion, match grips that offer much more support and can shift the recoil more into the rear of the palm and not out on the meat under the shooters thumb. I've read the rules carefully and it seems some of these pistol grips are reaching a bit too far onto the wrist. Perhaps that is in another category of shooting. Don't know. I'm trying to follow the rules with my contraptions. Perhaps I will put up some videos so what is going on with the present developments. M1911

[1917-1911M]

rmca..... I agree with you 100%. This is more about the shooter than the firearm. Some people couldn't hit the target with a rifle. Some shooters have better eyesight, steadier nerves and might have just done a whole lot of shooting, like 50,000 rounds through one pistol. Obviously, if the pistol is accurate they will do better with it due to all the shooting, probably better than with a short test of any other pistol regardless of quality. M1911

[1917-1911M]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_C4gr1hSE

Above is a video of a Ransom type device I made only this device is designed to allow the pistol to recoil as much as possible. I weighed my hand resting my arm on a book and it weighted 300g. So, I made the clamping part weigh 300g. I positioned the pivot pin the distance below the bore and distance to the rear of the pistol based on measurements taken from my hand. As you can see the stock pistol has quite a bit or recoil. This doesn't take into account the arm, tense muscles, the shoulder, etc. but what I wanted to do was come up with something allowing consistent measurement of recoil as weights and dampers were added. I will add some videos of how the counterweights and dampers benefit this pistol's recoil first chance I get. Some are nearby when playing this video above. M1911