Considering that the the sighter period was satisfatory and the fisrt match shots were good as well, is it normal to need to change the clicks of the rifle during the competition ? Or the configuration of the sight should be kept until the end of the competition ?
Thank you, Bruno Almeida.
Do you need to re-click the rifle during a match ?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
Bruno Almeida
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:36 pm
-
PatrickS916
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:20 pm
- Location: Central Virginia
Adjust the sights if they are not right, even if they were 20 minutes ago. Changing of positions and other things will change your point of impact so adjust accordingly. If you are shooting indoors, you will need to adjust much less than when shooting outdoors sometimes, due to wind conditions and changing of light conditions. I have to adjust my sights a little from position to position usually.
Patrick
Patrick
-
Metookevin
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:27 pm
- Location: Sydney Australia
If the event is air rifle and the perception is you are getting elevation shifts during a match then I would consider testing the air rifle over a long series of shots using a vyce. I have experienced inconsistency in elevation during air pellet batch testing that was caused by the rifle.
Cheers
Kevin
Cheers
Kevin
Re: Do you need to re-click the rifle during a match ?
I encourage my shooters to change at least one click on every shot. Most of these are not elites and probably don't do an adequate number of sighting shots anyway. Even if they shoot a dead center 10.9 I want them to move a click (R/L/U/D ... I don't care) and move back.Bruno Almeida wrote:is it normal to need to change the clicks of the rifle during the competition ?
I see too many (young) shooters afraid to touch their sights with marvelous groups centered at about 9.6-9.7 ...
Yes, it's chasing the dot to some extent, but I end up seeing their groups become well centered on the bull. One of the best tools I have for this, and to show them this, is the ORION Scoring System. Even if their hold and dispersion is "large" I give them great kudos if the center of their group is right near the dot.
Ditto on BDutton's comment as well
-
Bruno Almeida
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:36 pm
Especially with Prone and Air Rifle where they now score in 10ths constantly driving toward the exact center is crucial if you expect to make it to the podium. No longer can the competitive shooter accept a sloppy 10 and not do anything about it.
If I shoot a shot and it is not where I think it should be, I am adjusting. In a 60 shot air rifle match I have not counted how often but expect I am taking a click or two every two to three shots.
Outdoors for prone with wind and light changing, the same goes, gotta keep driving for the center or someone else who is is going to beat you.
There have been a few VERY valid points here, first, regardless of who you are your position changes a bit through the course of the match and you should compensate, why wait until you are shooting 9s to do this? Second, younger or newer shooters are afraid to turn those knobs. Nothing like grabbing a click or two every shot or so to get used to turning the dials and also to remind the shooter, the object of this game is to drive toward center. ALWAYS!!!
My 2 cents on the topic.
'Dude
If I shoot a shot and it is not where I think it should be, I am adjusting. In a 60 shot air rifle match I have not counted how often but expect I am taking a click or two every two to three shots.
Outdoors for prone with wind and light changing, the same goes, gotta keep driving for the center or someone else who is is going to beat you.
There have been a few VERY valid points here, first, regardless of who you are your position changes a bit through the course of the match and you should compensate, why wait until you are shooting 9s to do this? Second, younger or newer shooters are afraid to turn those knobs. Nothing like grabbing a click or two every shot or so to get used to turning the dials and also to remind the shooter, the object of this game is to drive toward center. ALWAYS!!!
My 2 cents on the topic.
'Dude
Jul/Aug 2010 "USA Shooting News" has a very good article on this written by M. McPhail. Good article for all levels of shooters/coaches. It's at:
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... e_zero.pdf
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... e_zero.pdf
-
peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
While we preach that you need to do things EXACTLY the same every time, in reality shooters can do that for only a relatively few shots in a string. (in reality .... if at all)
Slight head alignment differences
Muscles/tendons stretching/fatiguing
Eyes drying out
Gun held just slightly different
Concentration & mental aspect changes
Triggering the gun in different aspects of the hold (Look on an electronic trainer ... not all shots/holds are exactly the same)
--- Humans are not gun vices mounted on concrete blocks
And then there are
environmental factors - temperature of the room changing
Barrel temp changing
Barrel fouling changing
ammo temp changing -- effects brass, primer, powder, lead & lube
--- and probably so much more ----
So much going on a shooter cannot make it exactly the same each time ... only try to.
As things change ... so will the zero ... much simpler to just twist a knob than to (hopelessly) try to get things back to where they were as you initially sighted the rifle.
I do love it when my shooters go up against another group who I hear their coach preach not to move their sights or only take one or two sighting shots ("those are the best shots you'll take all day!") ... we're gonna kick their tails.
Slight head alignment differences
Muscles/tendons stretching/fatiguing
Eyes drying out
Gun held just slightly different
Concentration & mental aspect changes
Triggering the gun in different aspects of the hold (Look on an electronic trainer ... not all shots/holds are exactly the same)
--- Humans are not gun vices mounted on concrete blocks
And then there are
environmental factors - temperature of the room changing
Barrel temp changing
Barrel fouling changing
ammo temp changing -- effects brass, primer, powder, lead & lube
--- and probably so much more ----
So much going on a shooter cannot make it exactly the same each time ... only try to.
As things change ... so will the zero ... much simpler to just twist a knob than to (hopelessly) try to get things back to where they were as you initially sighted the rifle.
I do love it when my shooters go up against another group who I hear their coach preach not to move their sights or only take one or two sighting shots ("those are the best shots you'll take all day!") ... we're gonna kick their tails.
LOLjhmartin wrote:I do love it when my shooters go up against another group who I hear their coach preach not to move their sights or only take one or two sighting shots ("those are the best shots you'll take all day!") ... we're gonna kick their tails.
Yeah... they get excellent groups but never seem to score well. We also tell our kids to never go for record unless they have hammered the 10 ring... or... if they are just plain running out of time and make adjustments as they go.
-
bpscCheney
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
This is an interesting topic. In fact I LOVE this topic. Here is my philosophy. It is based on group and centering of it.
I ask my shooters to keep an eye on at least the last 3 shots. Keep a mental note of the direction of each from the centre. First question the shooter asks themselves is "Did I execute the shots well?" IF yes, make an adjustment to get the GROUP centre to the centre of the bull. If no, and the group is well outside where it is supposed to be then re-position completely. I have no hesitation to break the position and resettle and use the next shot as a sighter (well executed one as well!!) and adjust on that shot. This is a far better method than persevering with bad shots.
Getting back to the "good shot", the Zinger I call it. This can be used in In Air Rifle, once the group is centred then you can make the finer adjustments. Use the zingers. They are the shots that should be used to adjust the sights on. Those shots that all being equal sat perfectly in aim and the trigger (should have) let it go slap bang in the middle. They happen.
The technique some people admit to above of making micro adjustments will end up with a BIGGER group than if you adjust by the group method. This technique is just applying random variation to your score. Far better to make a systematic change that you KNOW will make a serious difference.
As an aside I witnessed this with a free rifle big bore shooter this year at our fullbore nationals. I watched him at 300yds and after every shot he adjusted. Every shot without fail. He ended up 4 points behind the best score at that distance. I had a quiet chat to him and the ramifications of "chasing the shot". He picked up on the idea immediately and at the next range was up to the leaders. He carried on the same technique and was consistently 2 -3 points ahead of the rest. He won and he was profuse in discovering the benefit of the technique.
So:
Watch where the group is developing?
Were they good shots?
Alter to the centre if they were.
I ask my shooters to keep an eye on at least the last 3 shots. Keep a mental note of the direction of each from the centre. First question the shooter asks themselves is "Did I execute the shots well?" IF yes, make an adjustment to get the GROUP centre to the centre of the bull. If no, and the group is well outside where it is supposed to be then re-position completely. I have no hesitation to break the position and resettle and use the next shot as a sighter (well executed one as well!!) and adjust on that shot. This is a far better method than persevering with bad shots.
Getting back to the "good shot", the Zinger I call it. This can be used in In Air Rifle, once the group is centred then you can make the finer adjustments. Use the zingers. They are the shots that should be used to adjust the sights on. Those shots that all being equal sat perfectly in aim and the trigger (should have) let it go slap bang in the middle. They happen.
The technique some people admit to above of making micro adjustments will end up with a BIGGER group than if you adjust by the group method. This technique is just applying random variation to your score. Far better to make a systematic change that you KNOW will make a serious difference.
As an aside I witnessed this with a free rifle big bore shooter this year at our fullbore nationals. I watched him at 300yds and after every shot he adjusted. Every shot without fail. He ended up 4 points behind the best score at that distance. I had a quiet chat to him and the ramifications of "chasing the shot". He picked up on the idea immediately and at the next range was up to the leaders. He carried on the same technique and was consistently 2 -3 points ahead of the rest. He won and he was profuse in discovering the benefit of the technique.
So:
Watch where the group is developing?
Were they good shots?
Alter to the centre if they were.
Ross most of the really good fullbore TR shooters here in the UK use plot cards to record fall of shot, sight settings windflag indications and also shot call. All of the rear sights have verniers for accurate setting of both elevation and windage.
As well as plotting the fall of shot on a scale diagram of the target you also plot the shot on windage and elevation graphs. These allow you to read off the windage/elevation setting that Should have been on the rifle to achieve a perfectly centered shot.
Seeing that you may have to move from 300 yards to 1000 yards and you very often only get TWO sighting shots and the top shooters are consistently scoring possibles on a slightly larger than 1 MoA bull this is a very necessary skill to learn. The first lesson is though never just look at one shot, always look at the group and it's trends. The next lesson is that you never put the full correction on if the first shot is not where you expect it to be. In that situation you halve the error, just in case you are on an outlier of the group. It's only when you have three shots to work with that you can really make changes. We also shoot individual matches three to a firing point rotating the shooter for each shot, and you only have 45 seconds to make that shot. This means that you also have to really know what the wind is doing and keep up with it, winding on changes with the wind from shot to shot if the conditions change, but based on what your plot is telling you. All of the top TR shooters that I know, including a couple of Queens Prize winners do this.
Although it is not normal for smallbore shooters, it is I think, a useful training aid for a shooter to keep a plot while shooting, if nothing than to make them really think about forming a group and correctly centering it. I think it can even be an aid for AR, when training is concentrating on group centering. I think that there are often things that are normal for one rifle discipline that would usefully transfer to other to others, even if only used as a training aid.
Alan
As well as plotting the fall of shot on a scale diagram of the target you also plot the shot on windage and elevation graphs. These allow you to read off the windage/elevation setting that Should have been on the rifle to achieve a perfectly centered shot.
Seeing that you may have to move from 300 yards to 1000 yards and you very often only get TWO sighting shots and the top shooters are consistently scoring possibles on a slightly larger than 1 MoA bull this is a very necessary skill to learn. The first lesson is though never just look at one shot, always look at the group and it's trends. The next lesson is that you never put the full correction on if the first shot is not where you expect it to be. In that situation you halve the error, just in case you are on an outlier of the group. It's only when you have three shots to work with that you can really make changes. We also shoot individual matches three to a firing point rotating the shooter for each shot, and you only have 45 seconds to make that shot. This means that you also have to really know what the wind is doing and keep up with it, winding on changes with the wind from shot to shot if the conditions change, but based on what your plot is telling you. All of the top TR shooters that I know, including a couple of Queens Prize winners do this.
Although it is not normal for smallbore shooters, it is I think, a useful training aid for a shooter to keep a plot while shooting, if nothing than to make them really think about forming a group and correctly centering it. I think it can even be an aid for AR, when training is concentrating on group centering. I think that there are often things that are normal for one rifle discipline that would usefully transfer to other to others, even if only used as a training aid.
Alan
Hi Big Al, I am also a fullbore shooter. I realise the advantage of plotting. I also am aware of the PlotOmatic.
All the points you make are spot on. That was my point. Some people don't do that. They will adjust after every shot as if the group was the width of the bullet. You are dead right about not adjusting the full amount.
I am going to try and make a video explaining the effect of altering on every shot as opposed to centering the group. The former is a points burner that's for sure!
As far as training for air rifle is concerned shooting 10 shots at the target without looking at the results is a good way of finding the group centre. Not only that but shooting with the goal to produce small groups wins points as well. Now the score is decimalised, the group rules over everything!!!!
All the points you make are spot on. That was my point. Some people don't do that. They will adjust after every shot as if the group was the width of the bullet. You are dead right about not adjusting the full amount.
I am going to try and make a video explaining the effect of altering on every shot as opposed to centering the group. The former is a points burner that's for sure!
As far as training for air rifle is concerned shooting 10 shots at the target without looking at the results is a good way of finding the group centre. Not only that but shooting with the goal to produce small groups wins points as well. Now the score is decimalised, the group rules over everything!!!!
Because the shots aren't going through the centre of the target. There are many reasons why the POI of the shot changes slightly during a shoot, but the reasons are not important during the shoot. The objective is to get as many shots as possibly through the middle of the target so when you spot a shift in shot placement then move the sights to get it back into the middle.peashooter wrote:I don't quite understand something here. Assume the sighting group is centred. During the match, if you check npa each shot and make whatever micro adjustments to left elbow, feet etc to put it dead on the dot, why the need to click? (indoors)
I don't typically make as many changes when shooting indoors as out, but I will still adjust sights throughout a session as I said to maximise the number of bulls that I shoot.
Rob.