Over the years I have competed in 2700 and would like to try my hand at Olympic free pistol. Are there particular or matches I should watch for, and what choice of pistol do you recommend?
Thanks in advance!
Where to start?
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Totally agree that you need first to find a club where it's shot - or at least go to a local FP match, and talk to the competitors. From there you can start to get some ideas and if you ask nicely they may let you handle their guns to see what you like.David M wrote:Start by finding a club and/or a coach who shoot free pistol.
That should start you on the right track.
Rob.
Great advice guys, makes sense. One of the things moving me in the direction of FP is the opportunity to purchase a Hammerli 150 from a retiring shooter. I aware of the "shiny object" syndrome, but thought it may be a viable addition to my stable for when I make my transition from (or addition to) bullseye competition. Any thoughts?
Whereabouts in the "Mid-Atlantic" are you? I know that Twelfth Precinct in Harwood, MD and Fairfax Rod & Gun Club in Manassas, VA hold 10m Air Pistol and 50m (50 yards, actually) Free Pistol matches every month. FXRGC's AP/FP match will be held this Saturday (I will be attending a bullseye match elsewhere, though), and Twelfth Precinct's AP match (and informal FP match; they don't report scores from November to February because they shoot FP outdoors and the weather can get yucky - then, they just shoot the FP for fun/practice) will be held next Sunday.
As for running out and buying a gun for FP -- have at it, but know that you can shoot FP with practically any pistol with iron sights. My shooting mentor said he shot FP with a Ruger Mk. I ("It was good enough to earn a [NRA] classification!" he said...but then anything's good enough for that).
As for running out and buying a gun for FP -- have at it, but know that you can shoot FP with practically any pistol with iron sights. My shooting mentor said he shot FP with a Ruger Mk. I ("It was good enough to earn a [NRA] classification!" he said...but then anything's good enough for that).
We used to run PTO matches at MIT, and Don Hamilton would come and shoot his Hammerli with the electronic trigger. It died half way through one match, so he dragged out his S&W Model 41 to finish the match (which he won).
When collegiate pistol shooting switched from conventional (bullseye) to international in the mid-70's, the MIT team only enough real free pistols for a few top shooters, so the rest of us shot our High Standards. The scores weren't all that far apart. You can certainly begin competing with a regular .22, and then decide if you want to mate the investment in a fancier pistol.
When collegiate pistol shooting switched from conventional (bullseye) to international in the mid-70's, the MIT team only enough real free pistols for a few top shooters, so the rest of us shot our High Standards. The scores weren't all that far apart. You can certainly begin competing with a regular .22, and then decide if you want to mate the investment in a fancier pistol.
Don't get too excited... It may shoot a group at 50 meters that holds the nine ring, but you will always be at a disadvantage to those with a real FP.230Ball wrote:My trusty Supermatic Citation has been at my side for many matches. Glad to hear it can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the FPs!
Let me elaborate a bit more on this:
Trigger - trigger weight on a FP ranges from 10 to 100 grams with some going a bit higher than 100 grams and others a bit lower than 10 grams. Your trigger will be probably in the 1000 (1 kg) to 2000 (2 kg) grams region or even heavier.
Grip - a free pistol grip holds your hand internally and gives a much better support than even a target grip for your Supermatic Citation. Remember that you shot free pistol one handed.
Sights - You have a longer sight radius on a FP which gives a better alignment of the pistol and also the adjustments are much more precise at 50 meters than on a semi automatic.
Weight - while it may take some getting used to, the increased weight on a FP will help you with recoil and follow through, keys points if you want to improve. Also, your Supermatic Citation being a semi automatic will have much more moving parts during the shot that a free pistol, also not helpful with follow through. And you can only load it with a round at the time.
Groups - A real free pistol will hold a one inch group (or slightly larger, but only to 2 inch) at 50 meters. I don´t think that your Supermatic Citation can... at best, from a rest I would say 4 inches, and that is being optimistic.
etc...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but you should be aware of this when you start shooting at 50 meters with on hand.
It´s a good way to try this disciple, if you have no other option, but I would suggest as others did for you to find a club and try a real free pistol. You will see that no matter how good your Supermatic Citation is, a FP is in another league several steps above.
Last but not least, practice with an match air pistol will probably be the best way to ease yourself into the FP world... if you are really serious on competing with it.
Hope this helps
Until you reach an reasonably elevated level, I think most people lose a lot more points because of poor technique than because the absolute accuracy of their pistol is wanting. Until you stop shooting very many 7's (or worse), the group size your pistol shoots from a rest isn't the limiting factor.
I also wouldn't poo-poo the fundamental accuracy of a High Standard. There are quite a few sub-1 inch 50 yard groups posted online from High Standards. Modern machining techniques have made pretty accurate barrels commonplace. Whether the ergonomics of the rest of the pistol will allow you to access that accuracy is where the big differences are.
An ergonomic pistol grip allows you to increase the consistency of your grip through a long match. A light trigger allows you to fire with less chance of disturbing your sight alignment. The long sight radius gives you a little more precision in aiming. Those are all useful refinements, but not essential until you get to a high level.
I also wouldn't poo-poo the fundamental accuracy of a High Standard. There are quite a few sub-1 inch 50 yard groups posted online from High Standards. Modern machining techniques have made pretty accurate barrels commonplace. Whether the ergonomics of the rest of the pistol will allow you to access that accuracy is where the big differences are.
An ergonomic pistol grip allows you to increase the consistency of your grip through a long match. A light trigger allows you to fire with less chance of disturbing your sight alignment. The long sight radius gives you a little more precision in aiming. Those are all useful refinements, but not essential until you get to a high level.
Couldn't agree more.Gwhite wrote:Until you reach an reasonably elevated level, I think most people lose a lot more points because of poor technique than because the absolute accuracy of their pistol is wanting.
I'm not saying that a High Standard isn't capable of doing those groups, I'm saying that that´s not the norm. You get those groups from guns with longer barrels (and even then it's not the norm), not shorter ones, and you don't have that variation with a free pistol. It's one length period. And a match grade barrel. And it leaves the factory tested at 50 meters. And you get that test with the gun. And...Gwhite wrote:I also wouldn't poo-poo the fundamental accuracy of a High Standard. There are quite a few sub-1 inch 50 yard groups posted online from High Standards. Modern machining techniques have made pretty accurate barrels commonplace.
Totally agree... However, if you could clamp a High Standard and a TOZ35M which would you put your money on doing the best groups with various brands/loads of ammo? Mine would be on the TOZ35M, and I would be "all in" if we were talking of a modern Morini or Pardini! (or alike)Gwhite wrote:Whether the ergonomics of the rest of the pistol will allow you to access that accuracy is where the big differences are.
Totally agree.Gwhite wrote:An ergonomic pistol grip allows you to increase the consistency of your grip through a long match. A light trigger allows you to fire with less chance of disturbing your sight alignment. The long sight radius gives you a little more precision in aiming.
With that I can't agree. Without them you can´t get to a high level, you would just be wasting ammo and spraying targets.Gwhite wrote:Those are all useful refinements, but not essential until you get to a high level.
I'm not debating these topics just to be proven right or wrong, I doing this so that 230Ball can read both sides and make up his mind. I would like to see things debated more like this here on TT , without trying to win or lose an argument or taking things personally for no good reason.
Hope this really helps
I would advise someone who is an experienced shooter and wants to try the 50m pistol match to buy a dedicated 50m (Free) pistol as soon as possible and use it often (dry and live fire) to get used to it.
It is a given that any well respected free pistol make/model will shoot well and accurately with most moderately priced 22LR ammo - even the old Hammerlies (101, 104, 106, etc) shoot very accurately but they were not very adjustable. I believe that the Hammerli 150 would be an excellent pistol to start with - particularly if it is the right price. If it is not a good price, do some research. Toz 35 pistols are excellent and they are starting to be made again so parts for old 35s should not be a problem.
One mistake that many 50m pistol beginners make is to set the trigger weight too light. I would advise to set it reasonably heavy (for a FP) at around 80 grams (3 ounces) for a start then over a period of weeks/months as you become confident and competent with it, lighten it off gradually - trial and error!
Also, for shooting 50m pistol:
Stance - Comfortable and stress free (as much as possible) feet about shoulder width apart.
Position - Aligned on the target (obviously) leaning away from the target slightly from the waist up.
Grip - Orthopedic grips should be firm, not tight, fitting. Grip pressure must be lightly firm like a weak handshake, not tight. Less form-fitting grips require more grip pressure. Trigger finger must be free from contact with frame or grips and a direct rearward trigger pull is essential (not always able to be easily achieved with some pistols if you have a small hand).
Trigger - As light as possible while allowing it to be operated competently. Trigger operation in 50m pistol is the variable that produces the greatest spread of shots on the target. Get it under control.
Sight Alignment - Sub 6 area aiming (in the white from the 1-ring to the 7-ring) with reasonably wide rear sight - the light at the side of the front sight should be no more than half the front sight width for beginners, less for more experienced shooters. Front sight about 4mm wide and it is most important to focus on the front sight. Do not hold pistol in the aiming area for more than 12 - 15 seconds maximum before cancelling the shot.
Breath control - Slightly deeper than normal breath as pistol is raised - not a deep breath. You are trying to achieve an equilibrium state in your body (despite holding a 1kg+ weight perfectly still at arm's length!)
Follow Through - Call every shot - review the technique and performance after each shot to assess where you think it should have landed on the target. Then check the position through the spotting scope.
If you have access to a machine rest, by all means test your pistol/ammo combination so you are confident in your equipment.
Finally, confidence is paramount. Experts say that technical/physical training makes up 10% of a performance, mental preparation makes up the other 90%.
Good luck and most importantly, have fun!
It is a given that any well respected free pistol make/model will shoot well and accurately with most moderately priced 22LR ammo - even the old Hammerlies (101, 104, 106, etc) shoot very accurately but they were not very adjustable. I believe that the Hammerli 150 would be an excellent pistol to start with - particularly if it is the right price. If it is not a good price, do some research. Toz 35 pistols are excellent and they are starting to be made again so parts for old 35s should not be a problem.
One mistake that many 50m pistol beginners make is to set the trigger weight too light. I would advise to set it reasonably heavy (for a FP) at around 80 grams (3 ounces) for a start then over a period of weeks/months as you become confident and competent with it, lighten it off gradually - trial and error!
Also, for shooting 50m pistol:
Stance - Comfortable and stress free (as much as possible) feet about shoulder width apart.
Position - Aligned on the target (obviously) leaning away from the target slightly from the waist up.
Grip - Orthopedic grips should be firm, not tight, fitting. Grip pressure must be lightly firm like a weak handshake, not tight. Less form-fitting grips require more grip pressure. Trigger finger must be free from contact with frame or grips and a direct rearward trigger pull is essential (not always able to be easily achieved with some pistols if you have a small hand).
Trigger - As light as possible while allowing it to be operated competently. Trigger operation in 50m pistol is the variable that produces the greatest spread of shots on the target. Get it under control.
Sight Alignment - Sub 6 area aiming (in the white from the 1-ring to the 7-ring) with reasonably wide rear sight - the light at the side of the front sight should be no more than half the front sight width for beginners, less for more experienced shooters. Front sight about 4mm wide and it is most important to focus on the front sight. Do not hold pistol in the aiming area for more than 12 - 15 seconds maximum before cancelling the shot.
Breath control - Slightly deeper than normal breath as pistol is raised - not a deep breath. You are trying to achieve an equilibrium state in your body (despite holding a 1kg+ weight perfectly still at arm's length!)
Follow Through - Call every shot - review the technique and performance after each shot to assess where you think it should have landed on the target. Then check the position through the spotting scope.
If you have access to a machine rest, by all means test your pistol/ammo combination so you are confident in your equipment.
Finally, confidence is paramount. Experts say that technical/physical training makes up 10% of a performance, mental preparation makes up the other 90%.
Good luck and most importantly, have fun!
-
Jack OAT