Hi
I am thinking about an air rifle and am looking for some advice on what to buy.
I am thinking about a rifle with the air tank on it but really have no local facility to charge a scuba tank, this would make it quite a hassle to recharge.
I have seen foot pumps for these rifles. Is this a reasonable alternative ?
Or is that really not the way to go?
Option two would be a spring type leaver on the side of the rifle. I have never shot an air rifle and don't know anyone that has one. So i'm kind of looking for some advice on what to start looking for.
I am familiar with 22 target rifles, so I would be looking for a rifle that would be as accurate. Getting 22 ammo is becoming a nuisance so i'm looking for alternatives.
Thank you for any advice, Tom
air rifle advice
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
If it is at all within the budget then a PCP air rifle is probably the best way to go. The hand pumps are not too bad for topping a rifle off, but you might not want to try one from empty. Getting a dive cylinder filled is probably not as hard as you might think. Many companies dealing with fire safety will be able to fill your tank for you. Even your local fire department may be able to help. The cylinders used in Breathing Apparatus systems use the same fittings and filling pressure, breathing air is after all breathing air. You do not necessary need a dive center to fill your tank, although you may be surprised just how many such places there are. If you are not into diving these places can be quite difficult to find.
As to rifles. in absolute accuracy terms then a good Single Stroke Pneumatic match rifle should be as accurate as a PCP. The issue is that they are generally heavier than PCP's as they have to have components that are capable of compressing air to around 100 bar/1500 psi (which is generally the operating pressure on the regulator. This weight also tends to be towards the front of the rifle which can have a negative affect on the balance. The lighter PCP has two advantages here. If you prefer a lighter rifle it can be much easier to get the balance exactly where you need it without adding too much weight to the gun. If you want to go up in weight then it is still better IMO to have the choice to add the weight to the rifle in the optimum places to maintain the balance. Any of the PCP match rifles from the main manufacturers, which you will mostly be familiar with from smallbore, will do the job. In order I would suggest Walther, FWB, Styer then Anschutz. If you really do not want to go with a PCP then I would suggest one of the SSP rifles. Probably the two best models to look for would be the FWB 603, and the Walther LGR. You would need to be looking second hand as they have all gone over to making PCP's these days.
The recioless spring piston designs are now considered classics, and due to this can end up costing about the same as the newer SSP rifles on the second hand market. The FWB 300 uses a sled design that allows the whole action to recoil within the stock so that you essentially feel no recoil. Walther and Diana used an opposing piston design that sends one piston forwards to compress the air as normal, and a second dummy piston goes to the rear to balance out the forces and thus remove the felt recoil.
Hope this helps
Alan
As to rifles. in absolute accuracy terms then a good Single Stroke Pneumatic match rifle should be as accurate as a PCP. The issue is that they are generally heavier than PCP's as they have to have components that are capable of compressing air to around 100 bar/1500 psi (which is generally the operating pressure on the regulator. This weight also tends to be towards the front of the rifle which can have a negative affect on the balance. The lighter PCP has two advantages here. If you prefer a lighter rifle it can be much easier to get the balance exactly where you need it without adding too much weight to the gun. If you want to go up in weight then it is still better IMO to have the choice to add the weight to the rifle in the optimum places to maintain the balance. Any of the PCP match rifles from the main manufacturers, which you will mostly be familiar with from smallbore, will do the job. In order I would suggest Walther, FWB, Styer then Anschutz. If you really do not want to go with a PCP then I would suggest one of the SSP rifles. Probably the two best models to look for would be the FWB 603, and the Walther LGR. You would need to be looking second hand as they have all gone over to making PCP's these days.
The recioless spring piston designs are now considered classics, and due to this can end up costing about the same as the newer SSP rifles on the second hand market. The FWB 300 uses a sled design that allows the whole action to recoil within the stock so that you essentially feel no recoil. Walther and Diana used an opposing piston design that sends one piston forwards to compress the air as normal, and a second dummy piston goes to the rear to balance out the forces and thus remove the felt recoil.
Hope this helps
Alan
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redschietti
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Scuba tanks can be purchased from champions choice and are not all that expensive, especially when you deduct the cost of a pump. A full size scuba tank gives us 4 to 6 months of heavy use, costs $7 to refill. Any decent sized city has a dive shop. I expect if you checked there will be one within a reasonable driving distance.
Ok thanks guys.
There is a lot of good info here to pursue. I shoot a pretty heave rifle now so the weight doesn't scare me off. If many are switching over to the Pcp I'm thinking that is the way to go, the more experienced masses know more than me.
I was shying away from the scuba tank because I figured it would need refilling weekly, but if it can last a few months that I can deal with.
Thanks for the info, Tom
There is a lot of good info here to pursue. I shoot a pretty heave rifle now so the weight doesn't scare me off. If many are switching over to the Pcp I'm thinking that is the way to go, the more experienced masses know more than me.
I was shying away from the scuba tank because I figured it would need refilling weekly, but if it can last a few months that I can deal with.
Thanks for the info, Tom
Tom, I guess one question that you need to answer is what level of competition do you aspire to? I don't have the years of experience at this that Rover and others on this forum do. My perspective is therefore limited. However, in the 14 months or so that my daughter has been involved in this sport, we have been to quite a few matches. Including Junior Olympics, National Championships at Benning and several other matches at the OTC, CMP, etc. I can't say for sure that EVERY shooter used a PCP gun at the big matches, but I sure don't remember seeing anything else. I am sure I never saw anything other than a PCP gun in a finals.
I'm not trying to start an argument with Rover or anyone else here, but it seems to me that there must be a reason PCP guns dominate the top level of the sport.
If you are looking to participate, but are not planning to compete at a high level and saving money on equipment is important, then a used SSP would probably be a great option. If you plan to compete at a high level, go with what the other high level shooters are using. Thats my two cents worth. ;)
I'm not trying to start an argument with Rover or anyone else here, but it seems to me that there must be a reason PCP guns dominate the top level of the sport.
If you are looking to participate, but are not planning to compete at a high level and saving money on equipment is important, then a used SSP would probably be a great option. If you plan to compete at a high level, go with what the other high level shooters are using. Thats my two cents worth. ;)
Rmarsh there are no arguments here.
This is all good info for me. I know some about 22 rifles but really nothing about air rifles.
I will not be competing at a high level. I do shoot a good quality anschutz and would want at least the same level of accuracy. But I don't need the best, at least to start.
Thanks, Tom
This is all good info for me. I know some about 22 rifles but really nothing about air rifles.
I will not be competing at a high level. I do shoot a good quality anschutz and would want at least the same level of accuracy. But I don't need the best, at least to start.
Thanks, Tom
You don't need a dive shop, talk to your local Fire Department. They fill mine for free and one tank last about 6 months.conradin wrote:Rover, are there any CO2 rifle that you can recommend to this gentleman? I think it is possible that it is difficult to find a dive shop (if you live in a land lock desert state); but welder can be found for sure in any state as long as people use motor vehicle for transportation.
The disadvantages to SSP rifles is that you have to pump the air into the rifle manually for every shot. That requires effort, that the PCP shooters do not need to expend. Given that the ISSF 10m bull is only 0.5 mm, and at top level that is now being broken down to give decimal scoring to a 1/10th of a ring every little advantage counts.
As I said in my previous post, the additional weight added to the rifle by the pumping mech tends to be out in front when in the shooting position. This may mean that when getting the balance right you have to add more weight at the rear, this may then bring you very close to the max weight limit of the rules. With the PCP you can alter the balance point without necessarily adding nearly as much weight. Of course you can still add weight to bring it up to close to the limit, but that then is your choice, not necessity.
The two main SSP's to look for if you do decide to go that route would be the FWB 603 and the Walther LGR. At the club I shoot at we have one of each as club guns. They are really nice and just as accurate as the FWB P700 and Walther LG 300 PCP's are.
I would tend to steer clear of the Co2 match rifles. There are not too many of them around and from what I recall of them they can be trouble. One issue seems to be shot count, I remember seeing reviews that suggested that they could be very marginal on shot count, struggling to make a 60 shot match with sighters without needing a refil.
Alan
As I said in my previous post, the additional weight added to the rifle by the pumping mech tends to be out in front when in the shooting position. This may mean that when getting the balance right you have to add more weight at the rear, this may then bring you very close to the max weight limit of the rules. With the PCP you can alter the balance point without necessarily adding nearly as much weight. Of course you can still add weight to bring it up to close to the limit, but that then is your choice, not necessity.
The two main SSP's to look for if you do decide to go that route would be the FWB 603 and the Walther LGR. At the club I shoot at we have one of each as club guns. They are really nice and just as accurate as the FWB P700 and Walther LG 300 PCP's are.
I would tend to steer clear of the Co2 match rifles. There are not too many of them around and from what I recall of them they can be trouble. One issue seems to be shot count, I remember seeing reviews that suggested that they could be very marginal on shot count, struggling to make a 60 shot match with sighters without needing a refil.
Alan
My reply was mainly based on the KISS principle. A SSP would also be the cheapest.
This debate has been going on for a while over air pistols. The PCP shooters claim they would be exhausted after pumping once for each shot in a match. I think they read this on the Net. Guys who actually use SSPs laugh at this and give them the raspberry.
I can't imagine a low shot count in a CO2 gun unless it's charged with the throw-away cylinders instead of the refillable ones.
The "Greenies" don't like CO2 and some clubs have actually banned the CO2 guns. I suppose they don't realize that the CO2 is just recycled waste from the brewing industry that would otherwise be vented into the atmosphere.
CO2 would be OK, but would have the same cost/problems as the PCPs.
This debate has been going on for a while over air pistols. The PCP shooters claim they would be exhausted after pumping once for each shot in a match. I think they read this on the Net. Guys who actually use SSPs laugh at this and give them the raspberry.
I can't imagine a low shot count in a CO2 gun unless it's charged with the throw-away cylinders instead of the refillable ones.
The "Greenies" don't like CO2 and some clubs have actually banned the CO2 guns. I suppose they don't realize that the CO2 is just recycled waste from the brewing industry that would otherwise be vented into the atmosphere.
CO2 would be OK, but would have the same cost/problems as the PCPs.
Dear Tom,thessler wrote: I will not be competing at a high level. I don't need the best, at least to start.
Thanks, Tom
If you decide to do the PCP route..I started with a HÄMMERLI AR20, essentially marketed for teenagers, with no extra accessories, and is ambidextrous. It is the cheapest PCP Match Rifle out there that you can buy new. My misses is an experience shooter but has never shot an AR, so when she tried she hit nothing but 8, 9, and 10. I think that is good enough. If you plan to upgrade in the future, may as well start with the cheapest acceptable AR.
It costs around $1k, but the re-sell value is about $800. You can always sell it and buy a FWB 700 later.
Scuba Tank
One thing about Scuba tank, especially if you plan to drive a long distance. Never let the shop fill it full in a couple of minutes and then believe them that it is done.
Make sure they fill it up, then wait for a few hours, then top it up again, then leave it overnight, and top it up once more. The more they do that, the better.
The difference is huge. If you do the former you will quickly drop from "200" to "150" within a month. With the "200" quickly reduced to "175" almost at the get go. If you do the latter method, it will be at "200" or slightly over "210" you will be above 175 for a LONG TIME.
Right now my tank is less than 140, and it was only been 2 months. Frequently (I shoot AP) my cylinders can only last for exactly a match (sighting and 60 shots). Right now I cannot shoot more than 70 shots with my Steyr LP10 without changing cylinders.
The latter method my tank lasted for more than a year. I managed to shoot 2 and a half match without refilling.
The scuba shop may charge you more to do the latter method ($25 vs $5), but it is worth it, especially since AR takes a lot more air than AP. I would also suggest you to purchase TWO scuba tanks so that you always have one on hand that works. It may be more logical for you to drop off the scuba tank, go home, and come pick it up next week, especially if you have a second tank. Tank is cheaper than the PCP cylinders
Compress air settles, that's a fact.
I'm not an expert, but this is my personal experience. I thought I got a good deal with the former shop and now I have to carry three cylinders for tournaments as opposed to one. It was very unnerving to start wondering if you have enough gas left at your 55th shot since the pointer at the manometer cannot go any lower; you know that you can change the cylinder, but then you cannot "test fire" or do any sighting. Every shot counts, whether it is test fire, or shooting cleaning pellets. Changing cylinders because of running out of air is not considered malfunction, so you do not get a break from the official.
Just my two pellets,
Make sure they fill it up, then wait for a few hours, then top it up again, then leave it overnight, and top it up once more. The more they do that, the better.
The difference is huge. If you do the former you will quickly drop from "200" to "150" within a month. With the "200" quickly reduced to "175" almost at the get go. If you do the latter method, it will be at "200" or slightly over "210" you will be above 175 for a LONG TIME.
Right now my tank is less than 140, and it was only been 2 months. Frequently (I shoot AP) my cylinders can only last for exactly a match (sighting and 60 shots). Right now I cannot shoot more than 70 shots with my Steyr LP10 without changing cylinders.
The latter method my tank lasted for more than a year. I managed to shoot 2 and a half match without refilling.
The scuba shop may charge you more to do the latter method ($25 vs $5), but it is worth it, especially since AR takes a lot more air than AP. I would also suggest you to purchase TWO scuba tanks so that you always have one on hand that works. It may be more logical for you to drop off the scuba tank, go home, and come pick it up next week, especially if you have a second tank. Tank is cheaper than the PCP cylinders
Compress air settles, that's a fact.
I'm not an expert, but this is my personal experience. I thought I got a good deal with the former shop and now I have to carry three cylinders for tournaments as opposed to one. It was very unnerving to start wondering if you have enough gas left at your 55th shot since the pointer at the manometer cannot go any lower; you know that you can change the cylinder, but then you cannot "test fire" or do any sighting. Every shot counts, whether it is test fire, or shooting cleaning pellets. Changing cylinders because of running out of air is not considered malfunction, so you do not get a break from the official.
Just my two pellets,