Fixing vertical variance

honeybadger · Post by **honeybadger** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:37 am

Still new at this hobby... looking for tips/training advice ...

typical results from yesterday. Sub-6 hold (targeting the "5"). 3.5 cm horizontal spread, 4.5 cm vertical spread. What causes the vertical spread, and how do I reduce it?

Breath (yes, and I was paying close attention to this)

or (given that I was watching the front sight, not the target), that I was inconsistent in my aim point-- I claim to target the "5", but perhaps I target anywhere from 4 to 6-- so how do you consistently find the same point when using a sub-6 hold?

I am NOT concerned that my shots were off to the right. That fixes with a quick sight adjustment.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:07 am

Your first 2 words answered your question, "Still new..."

I'm not saying that these tips are applicable to you but I always tell new shooters:-

1) Make sure you're looking at the sights
2) Make sure the sights are lined up with each other
3) Place those lined up sights somewhere in your aiming area
4) Accept the movement of the lined up sights; don't try to keep them still, you can't.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:46 am

What David said. Plus perhaps muzzle flip caused by heeling, generally resulting from anticipating recoil. And I find that I can watch my pulse registering as about a 1-ring jump vertically which tends to make for a slight vertical spread.

honeybadger · Post by **honeybadger** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:58 am

Thank you both.

Wanted to get a few responses before adding this, as I already know what I know, but don't know what I don't know, except that it is plenty.

I thought the vertical spread issue might be failure to consistently identify my aiming area (as I said in my first post). So I inverted a target, and placed a square of tape over the "5". No mistaking the aiming area here! Using this target, I reduced my vertical spread to 3 cm... but the horizontal increased to 5cm :(.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:36 am

That's way too close and too tight for my liking.

I would always suggest choosing an aiming area where you don't stray into the black, and one that matches your normal holding ability.

Don't be too specific about where your aiming area is or you might find youself looking at the target or trying to hold the pistol still.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:48 am

honeybadger wrote:. . . .
I thought the vertical spread issue might be failure to consistently identify my aiming area (as I said in my first post). . . . .(.

Nope. It's caused by trying to identify your aiming area.

When you are doing that you are looking at the target--not your sights--that's when you lose the front sight. It takes time to get used to using an aiming area. Do not try to identify an aiming area; just shoot while looking at the sights. The groups will get tighter and your sights can be adjusted to center the group. The aiming area will be developed in the background without a conscience effort to aim the pistol. Alignment errors are greater than sight picture errors. It sounds strange but works if you will practice the technique long enough to let it work. Be aware that lighting conditions will change your zero so you need to be good at moving your sights at matches.
Have fun!
Ben

And what David said. {I was typing when he posted}

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:16 pm

Don't forget to calibrate your front and rear sights and adjust it to your vertical liking. The worst case scenario is to purchase an extra blade that is different from the current one. A good vertical calibration makes you aim easier, for example, you can aim sub 6 directly under the 7 ring, or the other extreme which is directly above the 1 ring. Some even aims at the Bulls-eye, ie, sub 6 at x.

For me the improvement came from the sight adjustment. My grouping was horrible and I could never get out of around .200 in a match or practice for a long time awhile. Being told to change and calibrate my sights totally change that and I have huge improvement on my scores since..within a couple of months. Finally my scores make some sense, because honestly shooting under 100 points or barely over 100 means for MONTHS means a lot of things went wrong, or everything is fine except there is one thing that is very wrong. It is highly unlikely that "human error" is the only answer.

I did not have a coach, only getting tips from a few highly ranked athletes, I wish I have a coach with me so the original problems that I had would have never occurred.

Just my two little 4.48mm pistol pellets

David M · Post by **David M** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:29 pm

It is possible that your aiming area is too close to the black. If the foresight is touching the black it has the effect of distorting the black and you get vertical stringing.
Try and keep the same amount of light that you have between your front and rear sight on top of your foresight.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:03 pm

It doesn't really appear that your shots are stringing vertically.

It looks like you just don't shoot very well.

I suspect you're letting your eye go back and forth from the sight to the target. That'll do it.

To really get a handle on this, put a new target over the old one and shoot again...and again...and again...and again, with a new target over the old each time. Then you'll have a group you can really analyze while getting yourself a group you can make a good zero from.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:49 pm

Seems I'm finding myself in agreement with Rover lately, at least on the shooting stuff if not other topics. A 'journal' target behind the current target is an excellent means of seeing groups when one isn't at the higher level of shooting skill. Patterns emerge more slowly at the relatively novice level and seeing a 60-hole target at the end of a session can really help in sighting in and also analysis of one's bad habits.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:09 pm

I always use a control target during a 60 shot match for score.
A very good way to analyse your shots and keep record of your improvements over time.
The site picture above is a very good example of a sub 6 hold which I use.
If you start to hold into the bottom edge of the black the black sites will meld into your picture and you will have the verticle that you are getting.
Use a sub 6 hold, focus on the front site, trust your site picture and set the pistol off.
It will come with time.

Clarence

honeybadger · Post by **honeybadger** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:56 am

Rover wrote:It looks like you just don't shoot very well.

:)

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:11 am

You have very good advise in the previous posts, but I should add this, make sure that you place your finger on the trigger in exactly the same place time after time. Use the central notch for a feel reference.

If you don't, when you pull the trigger you may pull the pistol to the right, resulting in those three shoots.

Now, IF you do a proper follow trough looking at the front sight, you will notice the muzzle flip up or right... But I suspect that once you fell the shoot go, your eyes will be already looking for it on the target.

Hope this helps

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:39 pm

Rover wrote: To really get a handle on this, put a new target over the old one and shoot again...and again...and again...and again, with a new target over the old each time. Then you'll have a group you can really analyze while getting yourself a group you can make a good zero from.

Other than making me laugh, Rover always teaches me something new. do make sure you use the CHEAPEST available targets though ;)

toddinjax · Post by **toddinjax** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:04 pm

David H,

"Try and keep the same amount of light that you have between your front and rear sight on top of your foresight".

What do you do if your front post, when centered in the rear, leaves a fairly narrow strip of "white target" on either side?

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:13 pm

toddinjax wrote: What do you do if your front post, when centered in the rear, leaves a fairly narrow strip of "white target" on either side?

Two options:

If it's adjustable, increase the gap, or replace the back sight with other that's larger.

If it's not adjustable nor do you have another larger sight available, a metal file will increase the gap, but go slowly. Blue it afterwards or use a black felt pen to cover the exposed metal.

Hope this helps.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:40 pm

RMCA has it right.
I actually prefer to use a 3/16" chain saw file (very cheap at a hardware store) because it has no taper; you just keep filing until it cleans up the notch (impossible to screw up).

It gives you a half moon notch that the Russians were extremely successful with (world beating).

Just remember to angle the file so the notch is a tad wider toward the front for a sharper image.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:19 pm

Rover wrote:RMCA has it right.
I actually prefer to use a 3/16" chain saw file (very cheap at a hardware store) because it has no taper; you just keep filing until it cleans up the notch (impossible to screw up).

It gives you a half moon notch that the Russians were extremely successful with (world beating).

Just remember to angle the file so the notch is a tad wider toward the front for a sharper image.

Larry Carter screwed up one for my Hammerli 162. He filed the notch so deep that I could see the rear sight plate in the bottom. Be careful not to go too deep.

David M · Post by **David M** » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:34 am

You can also use a square needle file. Modify the file on a grinder by removing the teeth on one face to make it a safe edge.
This then will only cut on one face at a time.
Go slow and check often.
Good visual widths are 2/1 for precision and 3/1 for rapidfire and depth so that the foresight appears Square.

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