A big hello from downunder :)
I am getting a pulse bounce visible through the sights going to exactly 3 o'clock.
On the scatt it shows the same and the trace component for the pulse is 25mm.
I've ruled out by exclusion the chest bounce, jugular, shoulder and the brachial artery...
How would you test wether if the pulse comes from the forearm?
Again, if the pulse comes from 3 o'clock, from your wisdom, what could be the possible causes?
Fernando
Can I please have some advice regarding pulse?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Mike in OZ
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:15 am
- Location: Central Victoria, Australia
Hello Fernando.
I'm curious, are you left or right handed? I am right handed but have a loping pulse out to 9 o'clock. My best trace lengths are getting down to just below 40mm but the challenge I have faced was how to detect the pulse since it's only visible through the sights when more than twice that length. Without seeing it I face a game of chance with triggering. I've looked at the base of my thumb, hand stop variations and all manner of sling positions with different slings. It's always there.
I'm curious, are you left or right handed? I am right handed but have a loping pulse out to 9 o'clock. My best trace lengths are getting down to just below 40mm but the challenge I have faced was how to detect the pulse since it's only visible through the sights when more than twice that length. Without seeing it I face a game of chance with triggering. I've looked at the base of my thumb, hand stop variations and all manner of sling positions with different slings. It's always there.
Ok :)
I put the pulse bounce to be towards 3 o'clock (because I thought that most shooters are right handed thus getting a straight answer) but in reality I am left handed and the pulse bounce is towards 9 o'clock.
I put the rifle on a stand and measured the trace when pulling a shot (15mm) t= 1second. Then i measured my own hold with l (=40mm- 55mm).
I have a sight radius of 1200mm (thats why I can see the pulse through the sights).
For a right handed person, I figure the following (I may be wrong):
Your pulse may come from the chest, then to the shoulder (chest cavity dilation), then to the butt of the rifle... 3o'clock.
I would review the butt plate positioning on the shoulder. If you put your thumb on your armpit, the length of your index finger should mark the position of your butt plate (a good reference is also to look at Sergei Martynov's buttplate set up, just google the name and look for images).
Another suggestion is to try "biofeedback"- controlling the pulse by teaching your mind on how to "will" the pulse down and how to reaaally slow down the pulse in the last 3 seconds before the shot.
I am learning and training on it at this stage.
Already went from 65 bpm (on aim after achieving my npa for the shot) to 53 bpm (when the shot breaks) after 2 weeks of training.
If you are interested in learning more about it, let me know, and I will post all of my training regime in that regard.
I put the pulse bounce to be towards 3 o'clock (because I thought that most shooters are right handed thus getting a straight answer) but in reality I am left handed and the pulse bounce is towards 9 o'clock.
I put the rifle on a stand and measured the trace when pulling a shot (15mm) t= 1second. Then i measured my own hold with l (=40mm- 55mm).
I have a sight radius of 1200mm (thats why I can see the pulse through the sights).
For a right handed person, I figure the following (I may be wrong):
Your pulse may come from the chest, then to the shoulder (chest cavity dilation), then to the butt of the rifle... 3o'clock.
I would review the butt plate positioning on the shoulder. If you put your thumb on your armpit, the length of your index finger should mark the position of your butt plate (a good reference is also to look at Sergei Martynov's buttplate set up, just google the name and look for images).
Another suggestion is to try "biofeedback"- controlling the pulse by teaching your mind on how to "will" the pulse down and how to reaaally slow down the pulse in the last 3 seconds before the shot.
I am learning and training on it at this stage.
Already went from 65 bpm (on aim after achieving my npa for the shot) to 53 bpm (when the shot breaks) after 2 weeks of training.
If you are interested in learning more about it, let me know, and I will post all of my training regime in that regard.
Thanks Howard for the precious advice
After putting a thin strip of neoprene on the inside of the sling that contacts with my forearm (& the back of my hand) and straightening out a tiny crease that formed on the jacket, on top of where the ulnar artery runs, I got a nice surprise .
Alas the pulse bounce was gone :)
Really appreciate your advice mate
Fernando
After putting a thin strip of neoprene on the inside of the sling that contacts with my forearm (& the back of my hand) and straightening out a tiny crease that formed on the jacket, on top of where the ulnar artery runs, I got a nice surprise .
Alas the pulse bounce was gone :)
Really appreciate your advice mate
Fernando
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Martin Catley
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:19 am
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Pulse
Never seen a sideways pulse but learn somethingevery day!
Seriously set your sling so that it "pulls" more from the outside rather than putting pressure on the inside of the arm.
Seriously set your sling so that it "pulls" more from the outside rather than putting pressure on the inside of the arm.
Yep, and it had to be me :)
What I've done, I was using a gehmann pulse free sling, and I reckon that the massive cuff that they have was contributing to the problem as well.
So, I went to the "cupboard" and whipped out a normal gehmann sling, did away with the sling keeper, and glued on the said thin piece of neoprene.
Now this sling barely touches the inside if my upper arm, and actually my position feels a lot better sunce I've also moved my elbow inwards a fraction, including alao the butt plate weld to my shoulder.
On sunday when I go to the sydney international shooting centre to coach my shooters, I will run it through the scatt machine to look for the trace length.
I'd say low 30's if not lower, according to what I am seeing through the sights. They just won't move :)
What I've done, I was using a gehmann pulse free sling, and I reckon that the massive cuff that they have was contributing to the problem as well.
So, I went to the "cupboard" and whipped out a normal gehmann sling, did away with the sling keeper, and glued on the said thin piece of neoprene.
Now this sling barely touches the inside if my upper arm, and actually my position feels a lot better sunce I've also moved my elbow inwards a fraction, including alao the butt plate weld to my shoulder.
On sunday when I go to the sydney international shooting centre to coach my shooters, I will run it through the scatt machine to look for the trace length.
I'd say low 30's if not lower, according to what I am seeing through the sights. They just won't move :)
pulse movement
Your question and the replies are of great interest to me because I too have horizontal movement that I struggle with. I use a buttplate position very similar to Martynov with the center of the Anschutz buttplate about even with the bore or maybe a little higher. I've never considered that chest movement might be a factor and will try putting a piece of towel under my jacket where the buttplate contacts the shoulder.
How far out do you put your handstop? Mine is the old black Anschutz model and I generally have the front of it at 11 or 12 on the Anschutz rail. I also noticed that Martynov has his sling very low on his upper arm. This would be a significant change for me but I'm ready to try and if I can find a piece of neopreme, I'll see how that goes. Mike Barron
How far out do you put your handstop? Mine is the old black Anschutz model and I generally have the front of it at 11 or 12 on the Anschutz rail. I also noticed that Martynov has his sling very low on his upper arm. This would be a significant change for me but I'm ready to try and if I can find a piece of neopreme, I'll see how that goes. Mike Barron
Hi Mike,
I reckon that in the start you might need to check your position for the following adjustments.
I only coach experienced shooters and this is the procedure that I use to cut their pulse:
1- LOP-with the jacket on and standing up with the sling off. Grab the rifle comfortably and put the butt of the rifle on the inside of your elbow.
It needs to fit tight and comfortable on the inside of the elbow.
Adjust the length of the buttplate accordingly.
2- Trigger to handstop- measure the distance between the buttplate and the front of the pistol grip and put the handstop on the aame distance to the front of the pistol grip.
3- Take the rear sight off and get down on the prone shooting position with the sling on. Put the front elbow as forward as it will go naturally and IN LINE WITH THE AXIS OF YOUR BODY. Move the handstop forwards or backwards, and the length of the sling until you have a perfectly natural and comfortable position Without the handstopbdigging into your hand or being away from it. Adjust the offset as required. I recommend loosening the offset screw, getting down into position, and as you find the right hand position on top of the ball of your hand. Carefully take the hand away from the handstop and tighten the screw.
4- Lower your head naturally on the cheekpiece with its height at the normal that you use and ask another to put the sights at the corrct eye relief that is the most comfortable for you. Adjust the cheekpiece at an horizontal angle to make sure that the side of your neck does not touch it. Only the face.
5- Adjusting the buttplate height- face relaxed on the cheekpiece. Move the buttplate up or down so that the cheekpiece is just right on your cheek.
6- Adjusting the buttplate offset. Move the buttplate offset outwards to move the butt in to the position that gives you the best alignment between eye-rear sight- front sight.
7- Adjusting the sling on the upper arm- get a blood pressure monitor and put the cuff on your sling arm (upper arm). Get a few blood pressure readings in 1 minute intervals. You will notice that, as the cuff is deflating, you will feel a pulse in a definite small spot on the inside of your arm. Mark the spot with a texter on your skin.
Put the shooting coat on and accurately make a mark with the texter on the shooting coat, on top of where that spot is that you marked on your skin. Be very accurate when you do this procedure.
The back of the cuff of the sling should be just above your triceps.
Get rid of the sling keeper. Get into position and make sure that the inside of your sling does not touch or has minimal pressure on the spot that you marked on your shooting coat.
This should help.
Looking for pulse- you need to go bodypart by bodypart.
1- neck- moving cheek away from the cheekpiece: side and back of neck.
2- chest and axillary artery- slight push the stock forward using the forward hand.
3- forearm- sideways pulse- neoprene band on sling and look for creases on the forearm of your shooting coat when strapped up and in position.
I hope this helps and hope I wasn't too thorough :)
I reckon that in the start you might need to check your position for the following adjustments.
I only coach experienced shooters and this is the procedure that I use to cut their pulse:
1- LOP-with the jacket on and standing up with the sling off. Grab the rifle comfortably and put the butt of the rifle on the inside of your elbow.
It needs to fit tight and comfortable on the inside of the elbow.
Adjust the length of the buttplate accordingly.
2- Trigger to handstop- measure the distance between the buttplate and the front of the pistol grip and put the handstop on the aame distance to the front of the pistol grip.
3- Take the rear sight off and get down on the prone shooting position with the sling on. Put the front elbow as forward as it will go naturally and IN LINE WITH THE AXIS OF YOUR BODY. Move the handstop forwards or backwards, and the length of the sling until you have a perfectly natural and comfortable position Without the handstopbdigging into your hand or being away from it. Adjust the offset as required. I recommend loosening the offset screw, getting down into position, and as you find the right hand position on top of the ball of your hand. Carefully take the hand away from the handstop and tighten the screw.
4- Lower your head naturally on the cheekpiece with its height at the normal that you use and ask another to put the sights at the corrct eye relief that is the most comfortable for you. Adjust the cheekpiece at an horizontal angle to make sure that the side of your neck does not touch it. Only the face.
5- Adjusting the buttplate height- face relaxed on the cheekpiece. Move the buttplate up or down so that the cheekpiece is just right on your cheek.
6- Adjusting the buttplate offset. Move the buttplate offset outwards to move the butt in to the position that gives you the best alignment between eye-rear sight- front sight.
7- Adjusting the sling on the upper arm- get a blood pressure monitor and put the cuff on your sling arm (upper arm). Get a few blood pressure readings in 1 minute intervals. You will notice that, as the cuff is deflating, you will feel a pulse in a definite small spot on the inside of your arm. Mark the spot with a texter on your skin.
Put the shooting coat on and accurately make a mark with the texter on the shooting coat, on top of where that spot is that you marked on your skin. Be very accurate when you do this procedure.
The back of the cuff of the sling should be just above your triceps.
Get rid of the sling keeper. Get into position and make sure that the inside of your sling does not touch or has minimal pressure on the spot that you marked on your shooting coat.
This should help.
Looking for pulse- you need to go bodypart by bodypart.
1- neck- moving cheek away from the cheekpiece: side and back of neck.
2- chest and axillary artery- slight push the stock forward using the forward hand.
3- forearm- sideways pulse- neoprene band on sling and look for creases on the forearm of your shooting coat when strapped up and in position.
I hope this helps and hope I wasn't too thorough :)
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peashooter
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:04 am
- Location: New Zealand
Biofeedback
The biofeedback training is very useful. I haven't competed in a long time but when I used to compete my resting heart rate was 39 BPM. I could consciously slow down my pulse into the 20's before a shot giving me close to 3 seconds to take aim and fire before my pulse affected my shot. Granted, at the time my VO2 max was 72 and I've never been in that kind of shape since, one could easily learn to get their pulse below 60 allowing a 1 second interval to take a shot.
Hi mate
Unfortunately I only shoot prone. :(
But I'll tell you what I will do:
Tomorrow I'm coaching at the sisc and I know some top tier air rifle and 3p shooters. I'll ask them what is their take on the subject.
Are there any specifics that you would like me to focus on?
Big regards to allbthe shooters in NZ:)
Unfortunately I only shoot prone. :(
But I'll tell you what I will do:
Tomorrow I'm coaching at the sisc and I know some top tier air rifle and 3p shooters. I'll ask them what is their take on the subject.
Are there any specifics that you would like me to focus on?
Big regards to allbthe shooters in NZ:)
Biofeedback
Hi mate,
I reckon that your post is well timely :)
The focus of my own training right now is on biofeedback and mental imagery at shot release.
If there are no objections from other shooters, I'd like to post my exploits on biofeedback and hopefully to also get feedback (no pun intended) from other shooters as well.
My HR at rest is 58bpm and during training at shot release it goes as low as 43bpm.
The reason for this is that the brain at any given moment takes at least 25% of all oxigen supply (except under exertion).
When we sleep the brain is somehow very active (I suggest some reading on the matter by my fellow shooters because common sense would say otherwise).
The rationale for having, like you said, a lower hr at shot release than at rest,is because your oxigen intake is lower than when you sleep, right?
Tools: an impeccable natural point of aim, the right mental imagery and slow breathing (without oxigen starvation otherwise your sight picture goes south)
Any opinions/ personal experience, anyone?
I reckon that your post is well timely :)
The focus of my own training right now is on biofeedback and mental imagery at shot release.
If there are no objections from other shooters, I'd like to post my exploits on biofeedback and hopefully to also get feedback (no pun intended) from other shooters as well.
My HR at rest is 58bpm and during training at shot release it goes as low as 43bpm.
The reason for this is that the brain at any given moment takes at least 25% of all oxigen supply (except under exertion).
When we sleep the brain is somehow very active (I suggest some reading on the matter by my fellow shooters because common sense would say otherwise).
The rationale for having, like you said, a lower hr at shot release than at rest,is because your oxigen intake is lower than when you sleep, right?
Tools: an impeccable natural point of aim, the right mental imagery and slow breathing (without oxigen starvation otherwise your sight picture goes south)
Any opinions/ personal experience, anyone?
Hey Peashooter,peashooter wrote:Any advice regarding pulse in standing position?
I've been dealing with this alot recently and I've found alot of it was mental but position-wise, easing up of the buttplate to shoulder contact pressure seemed to help alot. The rifle really has to have most of its balance and support from the support arm/hand. As a result I try and make sure the left elbow is really jammed in there between the shoulder and ribcage. The buttplate almost kind of just sits there and mildly rests against my right pectoral/shoulder.. Before trying this, I almost always had a death grip and buttplate just stabbed into my right shoulder.
Helped me, and I don't know if it'll work for you, but thought I'd share. I'm still relatively new to this, but the expirimentation is fun and revelations are addictive.
Last edited by adrianS on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Biofeedback
Yup, I try exactly this and it works. When I shut my eyes to settle my position I also use it to focus the breathing and start to "will" my pulse to go down. And I do hear it slowing down like bullet time. I open the eyes, make any other small adjustments, and focus on one or two more slow breaths and settling while *passively* watching the front sight ring and target dampen its oscillation into a 10 hold. Now comes my bitter frustration- I sleep right through the 10 hold. I either start to wobble like crazy again from oxygen depletion, and have to start the process again (eating time) or the little voice inside me says "Thats a 10! Wake up and take the shot!" where the result almost always snatches me a 9 to low 10 and sometimes an 8 if Im careless.Fgregorio wrote:Hi mate,
I reckon that your post is well timely :)
The focus of my own training right now is on biofeedback and mental imagery at shot release.
If there are no objections from other shooters, I'd like to post my exploits on biofeedback and hopefully to also get feedback (no pun intended) from other shooters as well.
My HR at rest is 58bpm and during training at shot release it goes as low as 43bpm.
The reason for this is that the brain at any given moment takes at least 25% of all oxigen supply (except under exertion).
When we sleep the brain is somehow very active (I suggest some reading on the matter by my fellow shooters because common sense would say otherwise).
The rationale for having, like you said, a lower hr at shot release than at rest,is because your oxigen intake is lower than when you sleep, right?
Tools: an impeccable natural point of aim, the right mental imagery and slow breathing (without oxigen starvation otherwise your sight picture goes south)
Any opinions/ personal experience, anyone?
Adrian, the solution for that is taking the following steps:
1- the slipping from the 10 ring may come from holding the shot for too long thus letting muscular tension from your shoulder set in.
Try to take the shot inside a period of 5 seconds.
When you feel that tension creeping in, immediately close your eyes and feel where it is coming from and use that knowledge so that you know where to ficus on your dry firing sessions.
2- today I am applying the following exercise to a shooter:
5 sessions of 3 shots: put on the shooting coat, get down and find your natural point of aim, fire the shot with your eyes closed, take a breath with your eyes closed, open your eyes and check the npa again.
Fire 2 more shots following the same procedure.
Get up and take the shooting coat off.
The same again for 3 sessions of 5 shots.
Horizontal dispersion= quality of the npa
Vertical dispersion= quality of your breathing.
Let me know how you go.
To improve your breathing, you need to dry fire with your eyes closed on a horizontal line following the previous procedure.
1- the slipping from the 10 ring may come from holding the shot for too long thus letting muscular tension from your shoulder set in.
Try to take the shot inside a period of 5 seconds.
When you feel that tension creeping in, immediately close your eyes and feel where it is coming from and use that knowledge so that you know where to ficus on your dry firing sessions.
2- today I am applying the following exercise to a shooter:
5 sessions of 3 shots: put on the shooting coat, get down and find your natural point of aim, fire the shot with your eyes closed, take a breath with your eyes closed, open your eyes and check the npa again.
Fire 2 more shots following the same procedure.
Get up and take the shooting coat off.
The same again for 3 sessions of 5 shots.
Horizontal dispersion= quality of the npa
Vertical dispersion= quality of your breathing.
Let me know how you go.
To improve your breathing, you need to dry fire with your eyes closed on a horizontal line following the previous procedure.
i Adrian,
Just another remark: yesterday I spoke about perfecting your natural point if aim as a final solution for the problem, but as a stop gap solution for the "voice in your head"/ trigger snatching issue please read the following article:
http://www.scatt.com/articles/19/coordination_analysis+/
Just another remark: yesterday I spoke about perfecting your natural point if aim as a final solution for the problem, but as a stop gap solution for the "voice in your head"/ trigger snatching issue please read the following article:
http://www.scatt.com/articles/19/coordination_analysis+/